Evasion balance idea (in General)
July 13 2008 4:30 AM EDT
I have been thinking about this a lot.I know I posted before about it but maybe if I can explain it better you can all see what I am trying to say.
I kinda find it illogical that my close to 400k dexterity light tank sometimes cannot hit a minion with 20 dexterity and massive evasion.
What I propose is that although I believe in evasion I also believe a minion that is more dextrous will have a better chance to hit some one trying to evade him.
My idea to fix this incongruity is to have attacking minion dexterity compared to defenders in cases of evasion and UC endowed evasion.Since both of them would be considered "a physical ability to evade" unlike DB's or RoBF (magically granted evasion).This dexterity comparison would make dexterity a more valuable stat for a minion to train.
And here is the breakdown of how I would like to see it:
For starters let's take a 400k attacking dex and do some simple comparisons.
My simple mathematical idea is to divide the attackers dexterity score by the defenders dexterity score.
attackers dexterity.....defenders dexterity.....result.......effect
400k . . . . . . . . . . ./ . 20 . . . . . . . . . . . .= 20k . . . . -2k
400k . . . . . . . . . . . / . 100 . . . . . . . . . . . = 4k . . . . . -400
400k . . . . . . . . . . ./ . 1k . . . . . . . . . . . .= 400 . . . . -40
400k . . . . . . . . . . . / . 10k . . . . . . . . . . . = 40 . . . . . -4
Now for every 10 points of divided difference I propose a negative 1 to evasion granted avoidance of PTH.This to me seems like a fair compromise.Obviously reduction for a 20-1k dexterity minion will negate the effects of evasion.But a 10k minion only suffers 4 points of evasion loss.I think it will also make the assasin crossbow and ethereal chains more interesting.
Now before you say why would anyone train evasion anymore and just get DB's.Think about why they are training evasion and don't have DB's. ........................
Finally,I don't know who said it first but someone mentioned having evasion work against SG.A fun idea I also support to a certain extant.I don't believe SG should be fully "evaded" since the power of mages is always hitting and I don't believe that power should be usurped.I do think you could turn around and make evasion more useful and have it be a way of reducing SG damage.You would not have to "nerf" SG at all.I have not figured out a good way for evasion reduction of SG damage to work.But if both of these ideas were implemented it would increase the "rock,paper,scissors" effects of this game.
flame away :)
July 13 2008 4:43 AM EDT
July 13 2008 4:44 AM EDT
"I kinda find it illogical that my close to 400k dexterity light tank sometimes cannot hit a minion with 20 dexterity and massive evasion. "
But the defending minion does have dexterity, in the form of defensive DX. I assume defensive dexterity is scrapped under your scenario? Or is the defensive dexterity still there for calculating DEX based CTH and just ignored for the purposes of calculating the penalty to Evasion PTH reduction in your calculation?
All very complicated IMO.
Personally I'd like to see the defensive dexterity evasion grants reduced from 1 DX per point of Evasion to 0.5 DX per point to give tanks a chance to keep up with the huge amounts of defensive DX that Evasion minions have.
July 13 2008 4:53 AM EDT
Actually ....yes I would like to see dexterity granted by evasion to be abolished.Either that or ditch dexterity or evasion and make it one skill.Why should minions training evasion get a free dexterity boost without training dexterity.I realize it is only for "defensive purposes" but it seems silly to me.
why should the DX you use to attack with be helpful on defense?
Same concept, different POV ;)
I like the idea. This way, all evasion users have to at least train some DX to keep their evasion from being "nerfed" too much.
Not only that, people who actually train DX will finally feel some difference, making tanks a bit more viable.
ling, I don't see why you should need DX for evasion to work other than flavour reason. It is just splitting whatever XP into two places to train. There is little to no difference in how 2 point in evasion/ 1 in evasion + 1 in DX would behave. Its like making you train fireball AND another stat call intelligence (the net damage doesn't change, but it just make you optimise the ratio and maintain it). It would just be a new player nerf.
July 13 2008 8:36 AM EDT
If you want to just nerf the curve of evasion suggest that, there's no reason to overly complicate the system. It's much simpler to say - heres a skill that makes tanks miss you train it, than to say, maybe you need some dex or maybe you need some more evasion. Not to mention with this EC would basically make evasion completely worthless. And you didn't even make it a huge dex requirement to have no penalty, the dex requirement scales very badly, which makes evasion people very vulnerable to EC.
Try not to think of dex as a stat and evasion as a skill... just think of them as if they are all stats. There's truely no reason to complicate things this way.
I agree with you that evasion is a overpowered, but this suggested system is terrible. I'd much prefer that the defensive dex provided by evasion was simply lowered or something like that.
July 13 2008 12:04 PM EDT
Requiring evasion to be trained to some level of dexterity *would* make sense, and it would follow the example of bloodlust, which needs to be trained to some level of a minion's ST.
yeah, but most melee types train strength already. here is where this always falls apart. most evasion strategies will not be using dex for anything currently.
requiring them to do so would just be to make it more costly to get the same exact effect. if that is your only goal, along with added realism in a fantasy game, then why not just ask for the cost curve of evasion to be increased?
July 13 2008 12:48 PM EDT
Or perhaps not have the AoF boost evasion where it does not boost dexterity.
Let us keep the dex wars somewhat even.
"Or perhaps not have the AoF boost evasion where it does not boost dexterity. "
Or have the AoF boost DX :)
July 13 2008 4:04 PM EDT
I would be for that if that is the only option.
July 13 2008 4:12 PM EDT
Well, a lot of you aren't seeing that dexterity has very little use and I am trying to give it more purpose.The best option is to have it affect evasion in some way since the stats are similar in theory.
If you just directly nerf evasion then dexterity is still not that viable.All of this is primarily due to the free dexterity granted from evasion.So perhaps maybe just defensive dexterity from evasion could be reduced or eliminated.
Though I like my system better since it does force a little experience dilution and increases rock,paper,scissors instead of a direct nerf.
Also perhaps my understanding of dexterity granted PTH is totally off the mark.As it is now I don't see any benefit and from experiments done by others who have posted their results it seems as if dexterity itself is completely nerfed to the point of irrelevance.
July 13 2008 6:50 PM EDT
As someone pointed out, dexterity helps on the offense and the defense, where as evasion is pure defense; there's no reason to link the stats.
July 13 2008 6:52 PM EDT
And my point about the formula being horrible is that what'll end up happenings is all the evasion people train 10k dex, so then all the tanks train 20K EC, so the evasion people train 20k dex. So tanks train 40K EC. It's far too stepwise.
July 13 2008 7:47 PM EDT
Well the concept of the game is rock,paper,scissors after all.
I have thought of another interesting idea though it won't affect very many at all.
Since evasion is being granted defensive dexterity maybe we could have a bonus for very high dexterity tanks.
Compare the amount of experience trained in dexterity to overall experience and for every percentage point of trained dexterity beyond 25% of total trained experience give a bonus +1 PTH this way if someone wants to hit a heavily trained evasion minion they can by training more into dexterity and not training as much in other skills.Which will result in lower strength and hit points for the high dexterity tank.i.e. Less damage it can deal or take.
This last idea is balanced and won't nearly bridge the gap I think, since focused evasion training seems to be a complete tank stopper.
Although it does do one thing which is make dexterity a very little more viable.
July 13 2008 7:51 PM EDT
The easier solution would be to stop the AoF from granting a bonus to evasion.
Not only does it give more defensive dexterity, but also raises the level of the evasions effect.
A 2 fold whammy.
A few people stated to wait and see, well we have for months upon months now. Nothing changed and tanks still have a difficult time hitting.
Single minions cannot benefit from the new boots. And the new boots only work while the minion in front is alive. The other new items work only with sharpened weapons, and only perhaps Hatch and NS have weapons of that type over +150.
Evasion is crap, simple as that. And nothing has been done to fix it for months now.
July 13 2008 10:17 PM EDT
The point is if 10k dex can nullify this effect then it serves no purpose at all. Evasion just needs a nerf plain and simple.
July 13 2008 11:52 PM EDT
The entire skill would need to be reworked though. The design of the skill is an all-or-nothing. You either have enough evasion to effectively neuter tanks or you get slaughtered by them.
Any nerf will benefit the top end tanks and still leave low end tanks scratching their heads because they don't have the cash to dump into upgrading a weapon far enough to the break point.
I have a few ideas, but by no means am I educated enough on end-game mechanics to make a proper suggestion.
why not just make evasion require a certain amount of DX to be trained effectivly.
Say 100k evasion would require 1k DX or something ot that effect.
July 14 2008 3:29 AM EDT
I suggested a dexterity requirement for effective evasion level in a former post.It seems most people felt it was unneccesary since people training evasion would supposedly switch to DB's instead.Although I believe most of the minions that have evasion trained could effectively not use DB"s that are high enough to work due to encumbrance.
I think what everyone needs to look at is : what is dexterity good for? I guess there is PTH due to dexterity "gap" and it would determine how many attacks per round you might get due to that gap also.But wait,all someone has to do is train evasion at 30% or better and they will get defensive dexterity that will easily match most tanks and they get a PTH negation from evasion which will usually nuetralize the PTH a tank has added onto his weapon.From my own evasion minion I know that I would need at least + 75 and probably + 80 to hit with medium level focused evasion decently (certainly a lot more for the 50% trainers).
OK , well then you could just say suck it up and wait till you can afford your weapon upgrade.
That still doesn't look at the usefulness of dexterity except to use it to try to counter evasion granted dexterity.But since I cannot focus as much on that without losing a lot of damage capability I will never match the dexterity granted by high evasion especially with the "cost" of encumbrance.Since I will also need to increase my strength/hitpoints/archery/bloodlust to be able to increase my weapon NW with +'s to counter the effects of evasion.Not to mention I will need to upgrade my armor from time to time too to keep up my defense.
Right now I mainly see 2 different kind of targets : teams that don't try to evade and simply try to survive/out damage with AS,do damage with GA ,damage reduction with PL/TSA ect. And teams that use a high evasion or DB's up front to stop tanks.
Now look at this:
If I train a lot into dexterity (and take a bit less strength and hitpoints) it won't make much difference in the first team except for maybe an extra swat.On the second team I might counter the evasion granted dexterity and maybe my weapon + will exceed their DB's (not likely but my dexterity could help there due to gap) but I probably still won't hit except for that magical x% minimum chance.
Now If I train less dexterity (perhaps half as much) then I still whack the first team ok and probably better since I'll do more damage with higher strength and last longer from more hit points,and the second team? well again I am not likely to hit but I still have that same x% minimum and with higher strength causing more damage plus more hit points = more chance to hit the x% minimum(one more round maybe?).
I am still thinking it would be nice if dexterity really meant something somehow.Perhaps it is only because of strats chosen that I cannot see it's purpose.I know Jon has said it affects PTH and if so why give a skill like evasion which has it's own built in PTH negation an extra "dexterity" bonus.
I suppose a suggestion would be give equal DX tank vs target 3 hits (base CTH = 300 or something) and reduce damage by 67% (or whatever amount needed to have total damage in a round the same)
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