Confused - question about weapons (in New players)

I own two weapons, an ELS at 80x10 +7 and an MH at 84x136 +20. They are both named.
However, the MH seems to be doing LESS damage than the ELS? The MH averages ~45k per blow, hitting up to 108k but is usually around 40 or 50. The ELS hits ~70k regularly and hits 100+ more often.

How is this possible?

Since "hits" still look very random to me, is it possible the MH is hitting more often or something?
I'm drawing or stalemating people in my Favourites list who I went through like butter using the ELS.

melee weapons are innately weaker then ranged weapons

You probably just misread but they're both melee.

oops yea i thought i saw elb... my bad... well its randomness most likely?

That's what I thought too but it seems too consistent to be so random. It probably IS random but to me it looks as if the MH is drawning from a much smaller scale than the ELS, which should quite simply be impossible considering the stats, unless I'm missing some other mechanic.

That is odd. The ELS should be more accurate and less damage. One thing you should note is that the first hit does tremendously more damage because of bloodlust. Besides that I cant account for it.

Okay, I did some more test battles and I think I was exaggerating. It seems to be doing about the same or slightly higher.

I wonder how much difference there really should be, though, considering the fact that the MH has a higher base damage and is x136 as opposed to x10.

This is one opponent I fought:

ELS:

Croaker decapitated Radar with Sorrow [100663]
Croaker eviscerated Radar with Sorrow [40642]

Croaker sliced into Torpedo with Sorrow [49969]
Croaker eviscerated Torpedo with Sorrow [42467]

Croaker hacked Ping with Sorrow [57247]
Croaker eviscerated Ping with Sorrow [54509]

MH:

Croaker crushed Radar with Absolution [65056]
Croaker draws strength from his weapon! [1268]

Croaker pounded Torpedo with Absolution [39030]
Croaker draws strength from his weapon! [7806]
Croaker crushed Torpedo with Absolution [39775]
Croaker draws strength from his weapon! [4382]

Croaker crunched Ping with Absolution [51240]
Croaker draws strength from his weapon! [10248]

Croaker crushed Ping with Absolution [57174]
Croaker draws strength from his weapon! [1238]
Croaker pulverized Ping with Absolution [52342]

The rest are variations of the same.

have you looked at your weapon allowance and encumbrance?

Mmh, do I have to calculate weapon allowance myself or is it part of this?

Net Worth: $2,284,482
Encumbered at: 4,500,424

"The official calculation of the Weapon NW Allowance is about 2/3 of all the XP your Character has trained."

If I have to calculate it myself, I'm not sure what numbers I should pick as "XP"..

Add together all the "Untrain for #" values.

"If I have to calculate it myself, I'm not sure what numbers I should pick as XP"

Add up all raw stat/spell/skill levels, multiply by 12.

weapon allowance will not affect this... only enc might

"Net Worth: $2,284,482
Encumbered at: 4,500,424"

If your Net Worth is higher than your Encumberance, basically everything on that minion will be penalized except for enchantments (this includes strength, which could be causing your damage confusion).

Corn: But my networth ISN'T higher than my Encumberance level, so that can't be the reason, can it?

Also, I calculated the allowance thing:

Weapon Allowance: 5,352,384
Networth: 3,227,307

I don't think however that NW will be his problem since neither of those items can have more than a few mil NW anyway.

Mirick: do you see the same spread when fighting the same people over and over again? Against different targets, your weapons might react completely different...

i.e. against Ethereal Chains your ST will be less, making your Endurance less and your weapon damage output also.

Picking the character "Leic" as my victim, these are the results:

MH: http://www.mirick.se/cb_mh.txt

ELS: http://www.mirick.se/cb_els.txt

There is a difference - the MH is higher - but it doesn't seem to be high enough for such a huge difference in damage modifier.

If I understood the stats for a Name of Power correctly, it adds 150 damage modifier and a bunch of 'to hit', but that should still leave the weapons widely apart, i.e. 80x160 +? and 84x286 +?.

Maybe the damage shouldn't be any more different than this? :(

Actually, I upgraded the MH to x207 so it should be x357.

IIRC, doubling the X on your weapon without changing your ST will multiply your damage by the square root of 2.

So the damage on the MH should be slightly greater than (to account for the base damage & little bit of extra X) the square root of 2 times the ELS damage.

Tyriel: increasing your ST by 4 times, increases your damage from a weapon with 2 times.

Increasing the X modifier on weapons has a completely different outcome I think...


At this moment I think the MH indeed does more damage but the difference isn't too much noticable, try it again when both X'es are the same and are 500 or higher.

I'm probably not gonna upgrade the ELS that far.. And it will likely take me a while to get to 500 on the MH.

But I'll stick it out and bump this thread if I can find it again later.

Have you tried fighting some targets with no defense at all yet?

I think that you see too many differences because of the character you are fighting consists of multiple minions, this could get confusing.

I'm not sure if you can beat him, but my Mandos character is single minion and doesn't have any defense.

The MH has additional damage penalties applied, the ELS does not.

What are those?

These are the results I got from fighting Mandos:

MH: http://www.mirick.se/cb_vs_mandos_mh.txt

ELS: http://www.mirick.se/cb_vs_mandos_els.txt

I was actually killing him too quickly so each double break is a new fight.

There is a difference but to me it doesn't seem large enough to justify the extreme difference in damage modifier.

Spellcheck, spellcheck, spellcheck. Spellcheck, spellcheck, spellcheck. It doesn't link my links. I hope the practice of writing "spellcheck" is still OK; it used to be!

I have no idea what damage penalties nov is refering to, I thought it was simply dex penalties if you wear a shield, and a lower cth.

The only damage penalty I can think of for tanks is using a ranged weapon in melee, which obviously doesn't apply.

Based on your new results it seems like it is working normally to me.

The MH is doing more about 1.4 (using bad approximation) damage, and the damage modifier should cause about a 1.3 increase in damage, since I'm pretty sure the modifier works as how Tyriel posted. Given that the ELS is base 80 and the MH is base 84, I don't find it that surprising that their damage output is not that far apart (10 percentish, again very cursory approximation).

Can anyone confirm his math? I'm not good enough to know myself. :p

Guys.


I did Base Weapon Damage testing quite some time ago.


The MH and the BoTH both have lower base damages than what is shown. The BoTH, for example, is actually closer to a THF in base; the MH is much lower than it seems as well.


Jon's confirmed this before.

Okay, now that I'm not tired I can actually do some good math.

The Avg for the MH data you posed was 90499.
The Avg for the ELS data you posed was 87730.

My guess now would be that OB is right the damage of the ELS is actually more than the MH.

If the X works how Tyriel posted, (and how I thought it worked) the ELS comes out to a nearly three times the damage of the Morgul hammer, and I'm sure that can't be right.

Oh, that's discouraging.. In that case, seeing as how apparently admins are aware of this, are there any plans for changing this? Or should I start investing in my ELS instead? I can only afford to focus on one weapon.

I would like to take the moment to point out that base damage currently jumps from 80 to 92, as far as real weapon strength. BoNE is a lot stronger than people realize.


Also, people have been refusing to use the VB for quite some time due to its low base damage, but they still use the BoTH....which is barely any stronger! *chortles* It just looks stronger!

Ahhh, yes. I'm very tempted to continue my weapon damage testing now. If only I had the time!

One more mistake (sorry with all the misinformation), but I forgot that both items were named. This means that the formula that Tyriel indicated is probably correct. This means that the Extra X is adding 33% to your damage not 3 times. Which means that the MH's damage is about 3/4ths the power of the ELS at least according to the limited data.

"One more mistake (sorry with all the misinformation), but I forgot that both items were named. This means that the formula that Tyriel indicated is probably correct. This means that the Extra X is adding 33% to your damage not 3 times. Which means that the MH's damage is about 3/4ths the power of the ELS at least according to the limited data."

OK, I'm really, really dumb at math but if it's 33% extra, how can it be 3/4ths of the power of the ELS?

Also, Shade disagreed with Tyriel regarding the formula.

1.33 * 3/4ths = 1

Heh, I didn't screw up three times.

I'm confident in the formula; I've seen people talk about it and use it multiple times. (Mostly people with x10000 weapons gripping about how much money they have to spend to increase their damage heh).

Avarage damage = average base damage (at x1 and 20 ST) * sqrt [(x+150) if named)*ST/20]