Top 20 (in General)

Windwalker July 25 2008 9:09 PM EDT

Does anybody see more than 2 tanks in the top 20? Nerf wand went a little berzerk.

King July 25 2008 9:17 PM EDT

there's edyit, panda man and the lega and just below the top 20 there is still failure but yes most people seem to have abandoned tanks outside of the occasional halidon since SG was introduced. Koy, King of pain and The Hens Of Days used to be tanks but converted.

most people seem to be running mages which require virtually no money then selling off the cbd they make.

Xiaz on Hiatus July 25 2008 9:18 PM EDT

Problem with running a tank is evasion is just so easy to train - and it alone is enough to nerf any mediocre tank.

I'd love to play a tank myself, but it's not feasible either way.

Guess that might be the reason.

QBPixel Sage July 25 2008 9:24 PM EDT

I'd play tank too, but I'd have to buy too much CB$, and I'm saving my money for a shirt business I wanna start up. Speaking of which... I should prepare a high-res CB logo for Edyit...

Honestly, that's probably the reason why I've always really gone mage. Because it costs much less, and it's easier to deal with. I think there should be some modifications to the game to make mages have to spend more money (don't hate me!).

Hmm... maybe they'll have to buy magic dust to cast spells.


QBsutekh137 July 25 2008 9:32 PM EDT

Evasion is indeed the problem.

Binary/stepwise = not good.

VivaPinata July 25 2008 9:44 PM EDT

EO verses Evasion/skills!

superior me July 25 2008 9:52 PM EDT

im a tank now and even though im no where near the top it is still incredibly hard, with evasion out there its nearly impossible to hit also i cant use ELB because of the evasion meat shields out there at the front. I have to use a more specialized setup with a msb and select my opponents careful to even keep up with the rising scores of sfbm's and defensive RoBF setups, although im trying my best to stay a tank in reality i will have to change to mage or defensive sooner or later if evasion and robf and possible EC(not so much) are nerfed because if you run an amf at 100% of your opponents DD level you block 50% of their damage with EC if you run an EC at 50% of a tanks str nd dex combined (presuming dex nd str are same level) you tank their str and dex to 0 therefore you've rendered it useless how is that fair and with a decent sized pair of NSC most an amf can stop of you damage is 35% and with no dex or str a tank is pointless so it effectively stops 100% of your damage... after typing all that it just makes it more clear how stupid i am to continue as a tank.

but im stuburn and im going to stick with it until i quit in angre or until Jon smoothes the gap between mage and tank through MAJOR nerfs of RoBF and evasion and possibly EC slightly (doesnt effect me all that much as im a single minion tank but it would destroy tanks on 3 or 4 minion teams).

my suggestions

- reduce RoBF's magic reduction by 10% so its 15%(combine that with tsk and MgS the defensive setup will still be extremely viable)
- introduce fear seeking bow(just a name to suit the idea obviously changeable) the bow seeks out the minion with the largest evasion or uc and is unaffected by skills (like evasions and uc's evasion :)) and it would run the same upgrade curve of msb and would have a base of [5](alternatively to make it more viable instead of a bow maybe gloves or boots as people have already poured so much net worth into bows)
- nerf EC slightly maybe 20% off or so probably less to begin with or alternatively it cold run like amf as you would receive damage struggling against the EC and make it capable of returning up to 75% of the damage if equal to combined str and dex

just some ideas that wont render any strats useless but will influence more tanks into the game

QBRanger July 25 2008 9:52 PM EDT

That is exactly one of the major reasons I left.

For months now I have tried to explain how bad evasion is for the game in its current state and all I seems to read is either:

1) your 100% correct or:
2) how else are us non-usd spenders going to compete.

Well you wanted it and guess what, its here. Complete mage blender.

USD is integrated in the game, no way around it now. Perhaps if there is a CB3, Jon can find a way around the USD influence.

But Jon added ENC and halved the WA, neutering tanks. All the while changing evasion just a bit in missile. But the melee tank was forgotten. And there is no way that a tank could even think of using both missile and melee weapon. At least not decent enough to hit and do enough damage. And missile tanks had to try to hit in only 6 rounds, otherwise they would never hit. And with ENC, there was no chance for a decent melee weapon to help in that part of combat.

And to add salt to the wound, he added a new spell that blows any tanks damage out of the water. I should know having the biggest weapon and perhaps the largest strength of any tank in the game. With some of the best/upgraded tank items.

I tried and tried for months to get people to understand the path CB was taking but for the most part I got insulted, demeaned and flat out ridiculed.

New items were indeed added to help tanks in melee hit. However, they were for weapons that nobody at the time used. Sort of analogous to giving troops in the field 9mm ammo when their weapons are 7.62. Nice to have and look at, but useless for practical purposes. At least for many months. All the while tanks get despondent and leave.

And for me, the coup-de-grace was the free retraining. I do not have to repost my thoughts on how utterly unfair it was to tanks. And when I did, the same insults and ridicule was spewed.

I hope WW does not take the same path as myself. But as I stated, the game was no longer fun. It was like trying to swim upstream. Or like walking 10 miles in the snow to school, both ways, like my parents always told me.

I know some may think this post is nothing but sour apples. However it is what I really feel having played for 3 1/2 years, enjoying most of the time playing. However, the last 6 months have been more a chore then fun. So for me it was time to leave.

I hope Jon sees this post and others like it and finally does something to make tanks playable again. And introduce fun back for those foolish enough at this time to play a tank.

I always thought: Mages are cheap, tanks are expensive. Tanks given the same MPR will typically beat mages due to their NW. Gotten by normal or abnormal means. I had hoped CB would return to that basic premise, however it has deviated very much from it. I know about the pendulum theory of CB. Yes, it happens but it has not for this long this badly. I never remember mages being completely unplayable. Melee tanks are.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 25 2008 10:08 PM EDT

i think what you describe is not what the game has actually been billed as, even though it was that way for much of the time of cb2. what you describe is a usd tank>mage>non-usd tank. who beats the usd tank though? only a larger usd tank or one that spends more?

what the game has been about historically, or at least what i have always been told it was in theory (not always in practice though) is rock, paper & scissors. this is a totally differenct dynamic in which some strategies will always be beatable by effect there is no one strat to pwn them all!

unfortunately for most of the time you have been playing, usd did win them all. that was misleading but many of us kept saying it was out of whack then. i still do not think the game is in balance, but i do believe it is closer than it has ever been. i do not think we will ever return to one strat wins, regardless of which one it is at least i hope we never do.

superior me July 25 2008 10:15 PM EDT

wow someones agrees with me, crazy!

i also hope Jon fixes this however i doubt itll come soon enough, its sad to see that the uprise of mage blender has forced the retirement of who i believe is CB's greatest, but if so hopefully its not in vain and maybe it will help Jon see tanks need help.

QBRanger July 25 2008 10:19 PM EDT

If you really think the game is closer then it has been to being balanced, my decision to leave is certainly justified.

This is a difference of opinion and, as of your post, I feel extremely comfortable about my decision to leave.

I have seen plenty of non-USD tanks fail to compete with mages for months now. While USD heavy tanks struggle to keep up. If that is the idea of balance, my center of gravity is way off.

I hope things do turn around, for the good of the game as a whole. It is a fantastically enjoyable game, and I hope it regains its mojo.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 25 2008 10:44 PM EDT

under the old system, it was truly impossible for a mage to ever win in the long run though. if a mage could only win by having more mpr, but all of the top teams were tanks and the mage couldn't beat them and had to fight down for lesser rewards, how were they ever supposed to surpass and get to that higher mpr to beat the top tanks? remember mages don't really have the usd route to jump ahead or catch up either.

surely you must see why many of us said that system was flawed. this is why many of us were frustrated and thought about leaving as well. i think many did leave for those reasons.

superior me July 25 2008 11:28 PM EDT

mages could invest USD into pumping up DB's MCM's NSC MS AoF, there is so much a mage could beef up using USD maybe not as much as a tank but USD can still benifit mages greatly.

ded, what about tanks like me who dont flood their acc with mills and mill through USD what am i to do? because if Jon make mages able to compete (and easily beat) heavy USD tanks what am i ment to do when i dont have the money to waste on a game so making mages able to compete with heavy USD spenders might seem somewhat justifiable (even if just slightly) the spillover effect destroys any chance of a non USD tank making it up the top

so what can i do... convert to mage or spend USD not many options there hey ded?

QBRanger July 25 2008 11:43 PM EDT

I will stop posting now since it appears I am banging my head against the wall again and again.

I am sorry some people just cannot visualize my point.

To those that do, I hope you have the constitution to stay and hope things change. I just gave up hope. I waited long enough.

Cube July 26 2008 12:24 AM EDT

IMO if it requires you to use massive NW, yet you break even in effectiveness, it's never worth it. Tanks should have some sort of advantage, but they are just on par with mages.

superior me July 26 2008 12:40 AM EDT

i think tanks would have a real future if they nerfed evasion by alot and fixed EF/SG other than that i have no problem whatsoever with mages and with a nerf to evasion it would reduce the effectiveness of abusive strats (imo) like those that have evasion/amf/Robf

Eighth July 26 2008 1:00 AM EDT

I haven't been playing as long as most people here but i can see the "sense" of the way things are balanced here:

Evasion Mages > High Damage Tanks

High Damage Tanks > Pure Damage (+HP) Mages

Pure Damage (+HP) Mages > Evasion Mages

Of course, not everything is as simple as that but everything goes in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. However...

"...if it requires you to use massive NW, yet you break even in effectiveness, it's never worth it. Tanks should have some sort of advantage, but they are just on par with mages."

...which is very true. Mages barely have to spend millions to make their strategy (or lack thereof) effective, which is why I went that route.

My suggestion would be to add a "requirement" for items instead of nerfing anything. For example: equipping DBs (+X) would need a Y amount of Dex, where Y would increase depending on X. This would limit the amount of evasion a mage can have without limiting his ability to do more damage. It can also apply to other skills + equipment combo and I think it would be better than nerfing evasion or any other skills/magic.

Of course, I haven't really thought this through as I don't know the exact calculations of xp and it's effect to skills but it's just my 2 cents. =)

superior me July 26 2008 1:50 AM EDT

eighth, your idea is good but evasion is the problem it needs reducing ive i have level 200k dex and im up against someone with 100k evasion i dont hit which makes my 200k def and 250k str pointless so my 450k levels are virtually whiped out by a measly 100k so 4.5 to 1 sound fair?

i do however like your dx to item ratio idea, however sound a lot like ENC but making mages have some dx dilution would be great imo :)

Ancient Anubis July 26 2008 2:03 AM EDT

best way to help alleviate the evasion problem is remove its defensive dx that it provides why is this so hard to do?

QBsutekh137 July 26 2008 2:05 AM EDT

Ranger, two of your previous posts start with reasons why you left, or at least lamenting the fact.

Either leave or don't. That's actually a very, very simple choice.

I'm honestly not trying to start smeg here, but I feel this needs to be addressed. You can't start a post with something defensive (and unable to come back against because, hey, you left) and expect it to be respected. Either stay and support your stance, or leave and don't look back.

Like I said. It's actually really simple, conceptually.

Realistically, it's pretty hard. I suppose that's why I haven't left yet.

QBsutekh137 July 26 2008 2:09 AM EDT

Eighth, the way I see it, Evasion beats most everything tank-related.

Some Halidons cause trouble. Some large SoD make waves. That's about it. It's all an also-ran. When the tanks start hitting, battles go from pure win to pure lose. Heh, even when overcome, the Evasion issue has a legacy. It's all binary/stepwise. Like the ToE, like the TSA, like PL.

Apparently it's the way to go. It apparently makes Ranger's head hurt, too.

Mikel July 26 2008 2:45 AM EDT

"like those that have evasion/amf/Robf"

RoBF isn't as much of a problem as it used to be, it's damage has been nerfed and so has it's DD Reduction.

When you look at my strategy, I am using my DB's instead of Evasion, I have an evasion trained on my RoBF Minion, but it's very small, and only there to keep ex-bows/axbows from being able to target him.

Evasion by itself with any decent strategy is tough to beat for Tanks.

Also the SG would've destroyed my ToA Archer right away. I wasn't capable of outputting near as much damage as they can.

Charlie July 26 2008 2:57 AM EDT

Tanks will have their day again - Jon is always going to be changing the mix. Hang on in there and enjoy the struggle - kinda weird that this is a game where surviving on brute force calls for more brains...
Must be mad trying to buy some DBs when there are no tanks left to dodge -)

Zaekyr July 26 2008 4:03 AM EDT

I suggested a couple things to help alleviate the "evasion problem" but of course met with a couple kudo's and a lot of resistance.

I truly believe that if nothing else defensive dexterity from evasion should be eliminated.

Giving evasion users free dexterity of equal level greatly reduces the value of dexterity.With just one skill you can eliminate dexterity CTH and weapon + .

Best options now are remove dexterity bonus from evasion or double the effectiveness of trained AMF so mages can be stopped likewise.

QBJohnnywas July 26 2008 4:06 AM EDT

For the first couple of years in CB2 tanks were actually really difficult to run unless you had the cash. It wasn't until 2006, over two years after CB2 started that I was able to run weapon based tanks properly rather than UC tanks.

This was Jon's changelog from that particular time:

"AdminJonathan, June 30 2006 12:20 AM EDT [collapse]
No, it wasn't the amulets.

The _big_ change is the new weapon damage formula.

Briefly, if damage for weapon stats X and strength Y is N, then damage for 10X and 10Y is now 10N, for any X, Y, and N.

Accordingly, weapon damage enchantments now cost a constant amount to increase one x. The constant amount differs slightly for each weapon but is usually between 6000 and 10000 per x. (Less for ammo.)

Range damage, as usual, is a little trickier, but the same principle is applied there as well. (And it will probably take me another stab or two at it before it's really balanced. Also as usual.)

Welcome to tankblender. :) "

Before this change it was impossible to build a weapon over a certain size without USD. So only certain people ran tanks. CB goes in cycles. It wil change again.

QBJohnnywas July 26 2008 4:29 AM EDT

I'm running a non evasion team, archery teams half my size can beat me. (They just don't know they can! Come and get me archers...)

So if evasion did take a hit then tanks would be right back up there. And being supremely overpowered by the 'overpowered' crowds' standards of being able to take on twice their MPR.

QBJohnnywas July 26 2008 4:33 AM EDT

For instance:

Yanki (Battle Royale II) defeated Black Sophist after 4 rounds of combat

Obviously if I had evasion that wouldn't happen. But just goes to show why evasion exists....and I'm running SG at the moment which some people seem to think is the most overpowered thing in the game. There's hardly a tank team I can beat.

I'm deliberately not using evasion for various reasons. But evasion is the only thing stopping CB being Tankblender again.

Tchoob July 26 2008 4:34 AM EDT

JW, they do know it, you're just not fully farmable to them. Be patient, you'll get your share of being farmed :)

On topic, Evasion is a bit to strong, but not a great deal. An item similar to NSC that targets Evasion would be nice (some sort of Sniper Amulet, or something similar).

Cube July 26 2008 4:50 AM EDT

Walls certainly take care of tanks fine, as does GA. I never had a problem countering tanks not using evasion.

The problem is even if a tank goes all out versus evasion it can't win.

Eighth July 26 2008 5:54 AM EDT

"I truly believe that if nothing else defensive dexterity from evasion should be eliminated. "

Oh ok. See, I didn't know evasion added an equal amount of dexterity as it's not listed in the wiki on the evasion but on the dexterity wiki. LOL. But I think _completely_ removing it might have evasion collecting dust as a useless skill.

"On topic, Evasion is a bit to strong, but not a great deal. An item similar to NSC that targets Evasion would be nice (some sort of Sniper Amulet, or something similar)."

I like this. I've always believed that the least invasive solution is the best solution for multiple variables. So would having such an item having the same scale of effect on evasion as DBs will (only negatively) be enough for tanks to be able to hit with like 50% (or higher) chance?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 8:59 AM EDT

"so what can i do... convert to mage or spend USD not many options there hey ded?" either you balance around usd pumped tanks, which means non usd tanks are left high and dry or you balance around non usd tanks and thus let those with higher net worths own.

that has always been the conundrum in cb, jon appears to be fixing it though. in the past, there was really no limit on how much cash one could throw at the game and thus buy their way to the top. encumbrance as well as some other changes, have made it so that this is not possible any longer.

it would appear to me that jon's goal is now to make it so that the net worth benefit to any team is now capped at a certain level. what that level is, i am not sure, but to alleviate that of which you speak, i am guessing that the cap would be lower rather than higher.

i think that once we get that level set, evasion will the be much easier to balance (around one number instead of trying to choose a point on a continuum) and we will see the final changes of this plan. this is exactly why i stated that the game is closer to balance than we have ever been.

will we return to tanks having an advantage, most likely not, but is that balance?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] July 26 2008 9:13 AM EDT

{King}Pierrot, July 25 9:17 PM EDT
"there's edyit, panda man and the lega and just below the top 20 there is still failure but yes most people seem to have abandoned tanks outside of the occasional halidon since SG was introduced. Koy, King of pain and The Hens Of Days used to be tanks but converted."

So what.... Am I chopped liver? Do I not hover in the top 5 all day everyday? Do I not use a 80 Mil nw MH on a tank.... even if it is a small tank? Oxcha is and always will be a contender!!!! ^_~

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 9:14 AM EDT

of course the above is merely my opinion and i have often been wrong when trying to figure out where jon is headed and he surprises me with much more ingenious ideas than i could envision.

this is where it comes down to trusting his vision or not. in the five plus years i have come to trust it, even when i don't understand it, which is why i am still around. i can also understand the other side of the coin though and don't fault those who cannot trust it in their departure.

QBRanger July 26 2008 9:17 AM EDT

And there is the problem where your view is completely wrong.

Have you not seen the effects of ENC and 1/2 WA on tanks? I certainly have. Now, if you have a nice weapon you have to have plenty of HP/str with little dexterity to equip it. And it is worse if you want to use good items. Heaven forbid if you want to use DB's as they are $$$$. So you have LESS dexterity and any attempt to keep up with evasion is lost.

Have you not seen Koy before I sold out. Heavy HP and STR, little dex. Why? So I could use and carry my MH. I could have disenchanted, lost 50-33% in the process and then not hit evasion since my + was lower. Or if I hit do 500k damage instead of 1M due to less x.

So while for 4 months tanks have had a weight around them-ENC, nothing was done to compensate them.

To balance a skill or spell based on the number 1 character is wrong. Plain and simple.

There will be outliers to the scheme. But to base something on the most powerful person/item/spell is a disservice to all the other players who do not use USD.

Have you not seen tanks leaving or converting to mages.

I have for over 6 months now. Jon has had plenty of time to balance things since ENC came out and has done nothing. So mages and some tanks get to put a relatively low amount of xp into a skill and take away a tanks ability to do damage.

And then to add a spell that does tons more damage then tanks possibly can is adding insult to injury.

Perhaps LA should go complete tank with little strength and a LOT of dexterity, and get my MH. Then evasion will get a boost according to your view on "balance".

I completely disagree with your view, however, the only person that matters seems to agree with you.

Therefore there was nothing left for me to do, either bang my head against the wall trying to make the game better for tanks, or leave. Unfortunately I had to choose the latter.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 9:29 AM EDT

"Therefore there was nothing left for me to do, either bang my head against the wall trying to make the game better for tanks, or leave. Unfortunately I had to choose the latter."

did you notice the date on jw's post above and see how long mages were fodder? it is pretty hard to take when you are on the weak side rather than the strong one.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] July 26 2008 9:48 AM EDT

Dudemus: Do you think that allows tanks to be screwed now, just because Jon made a mistake and made the game tank blender in the past doesn't mean that it should be mage blender now. I have an idea, why doesn't Jon try to do what a lot of people are trying to suggest and just make it carnage blender, where both mages and tanks can compete with equal benefits.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 9:54 AM EDT

if you have read my posts you would know that i do not say that at all. i have said we are closer to balance than we have ever been. i do not want to see two years of mage blender. i seek balance as well. i hope it doesn't take too much longer and today would suit me fine.

we are working on jon's and nightstrike's schedule now though as well as possibly data-gathering to see exactly where to tweak what and by how much. i have played games where the designers listened too much to the community and responded way to quickly with nothing much to go on. it was a roller coaster ride and the games usually ended up so messed up that they died.

i have always been a proponent of small measured steps to balance and still am. : )

QBRanger July 26 2008 10:05 AM EDT

O yea,

Evasion with its defensive dexterity and boost from the AOF along with SG are SMALL changes.

And it was not as "tank" blender as you think. There were still mages near the top, and plenty of them. When Jon converted to the linear damage system of weapons it was not as "tank" blender as you think.

As you state I am skewed since I have the most NW and higher MPR, so are you with your single minion.

Mages have NEVER EVER had it as bad as tanks have it now.

And do you forget the SMTOE FB mage that ruled the early days of CB for 3 months? Mages have had their times in the spotlight in the early days of CB.

But now, playing a tank is almost impossible. At least trying to keep your PR low enough not to get negative CB and hitting stupid evasion. All the time hoping not to be instakilled by SG/EF.

I personally believe that we are the farthest from balance CB has been for a very long time. And have been for over 6 months.

This last changemonth, instead of moving towards balance, moved very very far away from it. And the free retrain was another nail in the coffin of tanks.

But one man's idea of balance is another idea of crap.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 10:16 AM EDT

yet you could still hit me with one of the highest evasions in game and very nicely boosted at that. granted you had one hell of a weapon there! the way you make it sound though is that evasion was totally overwhelming your weapon and us evasion users were owning you. i certainly do not remember that being the case.

either way it comes down to this, stay and help get the game balanced or take your toys and go home. this half-hearted argument of whether we are close to balance or not is just silly and not very productive.

QBRanger July 26 2008 10:30 AM EDT

I tried for over six months to chat for change. all in vain. you won, ages rule cb. Celebrate the victory. I became to tired typing to thee wall.

King July 26 2008 10:32 AM EDT

Rangers mh was over 230m nw dude and he was only capable of getting single hits on evasion minions at over +220 so I completely agree evasion could use some form of nerf like dex = 1/3-1/4 of the level since a complete removal would make it just a cut into pth and cth leaving it the equivalent of free dbs.

wotan [Sepapoisid] July 26 2008 10:56 AM EDT

If you would had 100 mil EXP and 100 mil NW equipment(tattoo included), which way would you go !? mage or tank?
Mage trains 2 mil lvl Evasion, 2 mil HP and 4 mil DD
Tank trains 2 mil HP, 2 mil STR, 2 mil DEX, 0,5 mil on skills, 1,5 mil AMF
Both have 50mil nw tattoo(ie ToE), tank spends rest of his money on weapon.
Mage buys second(third, forth) minion and will have bigger MPR.
So i believe that balanced game is that: mage grows faster, but with same EXP(MPR) and with large nw weapon tank bites mages

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 11:22 AM EDT

"you won, ages rule cb. Celebrate the victory"

i think that we as a community should be about working together to make the game better, fairer and more balanced for all of us. i am not sure where this "us against them" mentality comes from but i will not miss the divisiveness of it one iota.

if we can reach a fair balance then the game as well as the community as a whole will have won, until that time we need patience and constructive criticism on how to get there.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 11:29 AM EDT

Except that mage doesn't train 2 mil on evasion.He splits that into hp and DD and a hired minion in front trains 4 mil evasion 3 mil HP and 1 mil PL.Tank stopped.

King July 26 2008 11:37 AM EDT

zaekyr you just gave one minion 2 skills the mage would get hit by msks without evasion and the wall would get hit by everything else with PL.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 11:59 AM EDT

ok, oops.

Mage hires 2 minions one in front with 4 mil evasion and 4 mil HP one in back with 2 mil HP, 4 mil AS and 2 mil PL.

No matter how you do it it is easy for a mage of equal worth to win 100% of the time vs. tanks.

And especially harder for tank users that don't spend USD.

QBRanger July 26 2008 12:03 PM EDT


I have tried to chat about balance.

But I hear USD this and USD that.

Well seems your points were taken by Jon a lot more than mine.

Celebrate that. I could not stand the heat anymore. I was tired of trying to show how unbalanced the game is and have you state it is as close to balanced as it ever has been.

Jon has obviously taken your approach and therefore celebrate that.

IMO the game is very broken and very unbalanced. Play a tank and see.

But you cannot since you have no NW, even using what NW you naturally make as a tank. You would find there is no way you can even attempt to compete. I would even have given you a 50M NW weapon and you would swing and miss repeatedly. I had to pump up my MH ever since evasion got its boost just to keep up. And once ENC came--BAMM. I had to get rid of 1 of my large weapons.

But that was not enough. Evasion was still not changed, and tanks still complained.

Instead of fixing evasion, or at least making it a fair fight (see AoF), nothing was done--again.

Then a bogus DD spell was added, one that made melee tanks obsolete.

I have tried to work at make the game balanced, but repeatedly others say it is fine as it is. So be it. I just had enough of people not seeing the forest through the trees.

The game is broken right now. Tanks have NO chance and nothing has been done for months already. Forget about small changes, unless something is drastically done, more people will abandon tanks like Mikel and Freed and turn mage. Or just get fed up and leave. Like me.

Then you will have your perfectly balanced CB. You won, USD influence is gone, the uber weapons suck. Too bad the normal players in the game got caught up in this.

Again, celebrate your victory. You won!!

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] July 26 2008 12:07 PM EDT

Geez. Why be so overdramatic. I'm sure it's SO impossible for there tanks to be at the top right? What about a few posts ago when that person listed a few people to name some? I get it. You're not happy. But don't sit there and exaggerate and pretend like all the tanks in the game got neutered.

QBRanger July 26 2008 12:12 PM EDT


Look at all the tanks left in the game.

Most of the top ones have abandoned weapons and went with SG and/or the RBF.

How many are in the top 20 now? top 50?

But if you do want to see what is going on fine. Play your RBF or evasion or SG mage and be happy about it.

As I stated, and it is my opinion only, tanks have no chance now. Melee tanks have none. Again, it is my opinion, not shared by a lot of people and one of the reasons I left/sold out.

This chat of baby steps or small steps is ridiculous. C'mon man, play a tank and see for yourself.

During the free retrain what happened? Did mages change to tanks as what happened in the past? Or did more people abandon tanks to become RBF users or mages?

IMO, it is that bad.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 12:16 PM EDT

"Again, celebrate your victory. You won!! "

again, the divisiveness and antagonism. we are all in the same boat!

you said it best early on in the discussion, you believe that tanks who spend some cash should have an advantage. i do not believe anyone should have an advantage. i am not sure where jon falls on that idea, but i will say that it now certainly appears that if you cannot purchase an advantage, you will just give up. that too is fine with me, but let us not turn it into some great martyrdom in the process.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 12:16 PM EDT

It's ok ranger I will continue the argument.

I think mages forget that Tanks have to hit before they can do damage.

I guess they are so busy fighting all the other mages that they cannot see this.Or perhaps the single minion tank with ToA can still win vs. equal level mages.But if the only way to play tank is single minion with ToA it kinda destroys the rock,paper,scissors ideal doesn't it?

True,as tanks disappear there will be less reason for mages to train evasion.But that is exactly the reason I am staying :).(plus maybe I am a glutton for punishment)

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] July 26 2008 12:18 PM EDT

What would fix the game then? A nerf to evasion? The line of this is really thin and chances are nerfs to it will make it become a completely useless skill again.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 12:25 PM EDT

No, not a complete nerf of evasion.Just an adjustment.

Remove the free dexterity granted by evasion and it will be more fair.

After all, why can't a mage that wants an evasion wall train dexterity on that evasion wall to eliminate dexterity CTH.

Evasion would still do it's job of eliminating weapon CTH.

This way, evasion is never useless but if you want to use it, it will be harder to crank it way past what a tank can do to increase his weapon +.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 12:28 PM EDT

so force mages to train dexterity, why not just force tanks to actually use dex to make a difference by making it stronger against evasion. wouldn't that go with the original idea behind dex?

Tchoob July 26 2008 12:31 PM EDT

Boosting offensive Dex is another nice idea. For example, make a synergy between weapon PTH and Dex - you can only use PTH if your Dex is high, but the actual effect is higher than now.

QBRanger July 26 2008 12:32 PM EDT


We are not all in the same boat.
You fail to see this.

There are tanks and there are mages.
It has always been that way.

From the very beginning it has been: Tanks with NW > mages without NW. It was even stated in the FORS or something like that.

So tanks with more NW > tanks with NW > mages without NW. At least that is the CB I knew.

If you want a CB where mages = tanks with infinite NW, we have gotten to that point. In fact mages >=tanks with infinite NW. Due to ENC loads. Mages >>> tanks with normally gotten NW. That is a fact.

So why play a tank anymore if the NW, usd or not, gives no advantage? Miteke was 100% correct in his assessment of things, and did as I am doing, leaving.

USD is a part of the game. Deal with it. Jon allowed it from the beginning. He saw how it was in cb1 and did not change it for CB2. You persist in your belief that NW should mean nothing. At least that is what I read. And I 100% disagree with that.

I am not a martyr or trying to be one. I am trying to get the idea across that CB is very broken right now, very unbalanced, and hard to play as a tank.

But, as I stated, you and your opinion on things have prevailed. So I will be 1 less person to disagree with you and those who believe as you do.

Not everyone will play mages/RBF due to stubborness etc.. But you will find more and more of the top players leaving the tank ranks. Like Mikel, Freed, myself etc....

Does it not strike anyone as strange when the top 3 weapons in the game were not being used as the primary damage dealer. And 2 of the 3 were not even being used at all? And these were the so called "uber" USD backed weapons. If these weapons are not being used, what hope is there for normally raised weapons?

I hope there are no inconsistencies in my post as we have someone looking at all of mine with a fine tooth comb ready to pounce on anything that may be construed as such.

And yes, I am very frustrated. I have played and enjoyed this game for years. More than any other I played. However, something that is very obvious to me for months now is still unchanged with all the postings about how wrong things are. I just do hope that things do change for the better. CB is a wonderful game that needs a tune up.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 26 2008 12:37 PM EDT


TheHatchetman July 26 2008 12:39 PM EDT

w00t! :D defensive win for me ^_^

QBRanger July 26 2008 12:40 PM EDT

Certainly we can find a tank or 2. Especially one that uses evasion and/or UC.

And there is edyit also.

However, how many tanks: mage are there. And I count a RBF users more as a mage then a tank since it always hits.

And let us not forget all the NW that particular tank has just to be competitive.

QBsutekh137 July 26 2008 12:41 PM EDT

I love the hyperbole and melodrama slipped into your posts, Ranger.

The best part is that I completely agree with Ranger about Evasion... Just so happens I also see other people's points too. I agree Evasion/Dexterity/CTH needs changing, and has for some time now. But most suggestions on changing it could instantly swing the game back to tanks. That's not my fault, that's not your fault, that's not an issue that anyone on this thread can control. The issue is the binary nature of hitting.

For that, some have come up with schemes that say there should be some way for tanks to hit at least once, either through gear, ranged factors, or a re-work of Evasion. Decaying Evasion is another idea some bright folks have had.

For the Evasion point specifically, does anyone on this thread truly believe that Evasion is fine, and should stay exactly the way it is? No changes? I don't care if you are a mage, tank, use Evasion, or don't... And don't pick out aberrant gear like huge ToAs powering massive SoDs (Soul Collector is a force right at the moment!). Look at the facts, consider all angles and points in the score ladder, and comment on how you think Evasion is affecting the game (especially in light of recent changes).

Don't get me wrong, if Evasion gets nerfed and things swing the other way, I'll be the first to complain. I run a mage team, and always have. No doubt or secret about that, and it isn't going to change. But I don't even need to see how few tanks there are to know Evasion is too much right now.

QBJohnnywas July 26 2008 12:46 PM EDT

Without evasion a tank team nearly half my size can beat me with absolutely no problem.

It really wouldn't take much to head back to tank blender.

QBsutekh137 July 26 2008 12:47 PM EDT

Yes, Novice, Soul Collector is something to behold right now, but I think a ToA-backed massive SoD makes that a bit of an aberration. In any case, I don't think one can look at SC and say, "See how easy it is to be a tank?"

That's the litmus test I am using right now. Instead of going back and forth on haw many tanks are there, can't we focus on issues and game mechanics?

QBRanger July 26 2008 12:49 PM EDT


Glad to see we agree on something.

However, for how many months now has evasion been the same, give or tank a .2 multiplier in ranged?

And C'mon, with the new SG spell, why play a tank anymore. Especially a melee one.

Evasion is making it far easier for mages to evade and use the nice new instakill spell.

And since evasion was not changed for months, what leads anyone to believe it will be in the future. I personally have waited and waited through 3 changemonths for it to get better. Or be bearable. or be on equal footing with tanks PTH.

It has not, and I doubt it will be in the near future. Read other peoples posts and you will see that some really believe evasion is needed in its current form to protect from all the evil USD out there.

But as I stated, the last changemonth made a bad thing far worse. Instead of tanks getting some help, we got really hosed. Yes, we got some items to hit, but they were for weapons nobody used. Perhaps 1 or 2 people, while the rest of the game, using the MH, got a shield that is laughable. You have to live through missile and spells/SoD/ELB and then try to hit to get its effect.

And my suggestion of a weapon artist was met with the same resistance by those people who love how "balanced" the game is now.

Certainly I am being overdramatic right now. But perhaps it is the only way to make my feelings known. Nothing else has worked up to now. And I see all the levels of protection on had vs mages quickly disappearing.

Again, time for me to get out before I really lose it. I took this game a bit too seriously, but that is my personality. I hope the game lives on a long time, but also hope that things get fixed rather quick. I do not want to see mage vs mage or RBF vs mage with a rare tank in there. Like I do now.

And if I really did not feel quite passionate about the game, why would I continue to post when I am selling out. I really do want a balanced game, contrary to what others think.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 12:54 PM EDT

i think that at the moment physical damage types need some boost to hitting. i tend to think that toning down defensive dex or boosting actual dexterity's effect would be the way to go or a combination of both. out of the two i really like making dex more important again. give people a reason to train it and make them choose between hitting regularly or hitting hard. but if they focus on hitting regularly they certainly should.

i also think amf needs a little love as well! : )

Mikel July 26 2008 12:57 PM EDT

lol Soul Collector, he just got the biggest SoD and Tattoo in the game. It's the same pretty much as if he were Ranger at this time.

Don't worry though, I'm sure some Evasions will get to him sooner rather than later.

Ancient Anubis July 26 2008 12:59 PM EDT

i hope not only got freeds sod for the week at moment so don't frett to much

QBRanger July 26 2008 1:02 PM EDT

But novice,

I guess if Soul Collector is your example of a successful tank, my points are well stated and proved.

Thank you for you help in the matter.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 1:06 PM EDT

dudemus, as long as evasion gives free dexterity equal to trained level it doesn't matter how much dexterity a tank trains the mages dexterity will exceed his due to less xp dilution.

Are you saying that tanks should only train hp,dexterity,skill to be able to hit a mage.That would work to get a hit.

Then what about the lack of damage due to strength being lost and the very much decreased weapon capability due to lower ENC.

I'm afraid the only way to make it fair without lowering the curve of evasion negative PTH to extremes is to do away with free dexterity.

It makes no sense to get 2 advantages out of one skill.

Mikel July 26 2008 1:14 PM EDT

So I have a week to outgrow your SoD. Well +300 DB's here I come. I still have 150m NW/Encumbrance free space to grow with.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 1:14 PM EDT

"Then what about the lack of damage due to strength being lost and the very much decreased weapon capability due to lower ENC."

i think there is once again a "balance" that can be reached where you train dex more, get a hit and yes do less damage. the alternative is keeping damage levels high and guaranteeing hits in some manner. that would throw us right back to the broken game dynamics.

i am not sure of the best way to get there, toning down def dex or beefing up true dex or a combination of the two. if you simply do away with defensive dex entirely though that would make evasion pretty worthless unless you put in on the linear damage model scale rather than on a curve cost.

as for getting two effects with one ability, evasion is certainly not the only item in the game that can do that. look at dm which can negate numerous spells under its level as easy as it does one.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 1:23 PM EDT

Yes but DM has it's drawbacks in the fact you cannot effectivly use AMF or EC which have their usefulness.And doesn't help much vs. those that don't trained enchant defense or very little.

On the other hand,evasion is a skill that also grants as much dexterity.

Let's say we change it to half the trained level.Half the trained level of 1/3 total trained xp in the case of most mages/evasion walls would still stop tanks rather easily.

dexterity is dexterity.

evasion should just be evasion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 1:31 PM EDT

"Let's say we change it to half the trained level.Half the trained level of 1/3 total trained xp in the case of most mages/evasion walls would still stop tanks rather easily."

i have never been able to visualize these changes and forecast what effect they will have. i do agree with your general idea though, reduce it to a certain level. i tend to say let jon decide what that level is and also perhaps increase the dex effect. somewhere between where we are now and 0 defensive dex being granted there is likely a balance point. that is what i think we need to shoot for whatever that point may be.

where do you foresee the balance point though zaek? is it with maxed out enc or with much lesser? or more clearly, do we balance assuming tanks are using their full potential and evasion should just almost nullify that or do we balance on tanks not using their full potential?

Zaekyr July 26 2008 1:47 PM EDT

Most tanks do not spend USD.

I do not know the correlation of dexterity CTH.I don't think Jon has ever mention the ratio.

If dexterity comparison CTH is increased those that are higher will get more benefit than those lower down so that will not work.

If we eliminate evasion granted dexterity,and perhaps adjust dexterity granted PTH to reflect the negative PTH granted by evasion it might balance a tanks ability to hit.

Granting evasion a bonus of defensive dexterity basically nerfs dexterity in the first place.

Another thing that could be done is :Grant dexterity a CTH based on level trained just as evasion has its negative.I prefer adjusting dexterity comparison CTH as needed as it is far simpler to do and more realistic.Although the former method would allow tanks to see the reason behind why they are hitting or not hitting.

As it is now ,we know exactly why we are not hitting.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 1:55 PM EDT

"Most tanks do not spend USD."

i think the usd problem is in the past. i was referring to someone who uses all of their enc potential for their weapon, and mostly on hitting with that weapon.

i think the damage and to-hit model we use may just have too many damn variables. perhaps we need to change it so that damage is decided by the x and to hit is decided by dex. in effect do away with string and do away with + or vice versa? the only reason i say that is that we now have four variables, dex, str, x & +. there are many different combos of those factors that make balance very difficult however the choice offered by the current system is great.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 2:11 PM EDT

Well, there is also the thing about base weapon CTH.As far as I know it is set for 90 on MsK/EX/AX 100 for ELB and 70(?) for melee weapons?Seems to me it should be easier to hit when you are close up.

Perhaps negate evasion bonus during ranged and change BASE CTH down for bows and up for melee.(Never 100% except for other adjustments).

The damage model could be adjusted to do damage based on how well you hit too.i.e headshot vs. legshot based on to hit level above needed.

It is hard to say for sure but perhaps appropriate adjustments can be made in so many other areas to eliminate free dexterity and still find balance for tanks.

Eighth July 26 2008 2:15 PM EDT

"i think the damage and to-hit model we use may just have too many damn variables. perhaps we need to change it so that damage is decided by the x and to hit is decided by dex. in effect do away with string and do away with + or vice versa? the only reason i say that is that we now have four variables, dex, str, x & +. there are many different combos of those factors that make balance very difficult however the choice offered by the current system is great."

Exactly what I was thinking. However, that would completely change evasion as nobody will take it if it will give the same benefit as dex. I was thinking maybe evasion would be changed to something like a % of dex multiplier to affect dodging weapons. Of course, that % should be higher than haste to make it viable.

Eighth July 26 2008 2:37 PM EDT

Sorry, I said it wrong. I meant that would mean to remove the base CTH of weapons completely (just add/keep penalties for dex), then make evasion be more useful for dodging than dex (like 1 point for evasion = 1.5 points of defensive dex... or even higher). An attacker's effective CTH will be attacker's dex / enemy's defensive dex. It should be easier to balance that way.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 3:22 PM EDT

You are all forgetting the true purpose of evasion which is obviously to counter weapon PTH.

To have evasion also give defensive dexterity also eliminates dexterity CTH which in the end eliminates all CTH.

I do not understand how no one can see this obvious imbalance to evasion except for the fact that mages want to keep their advantage.

Tanks generally train hp,strength,dexterity,skill.Mages generally train hp,dd.Some mages use evasion walls with 50% or more xp trained in evasion.While others train evasion on the mage itself at 33% of total trained xp.While tanks will generally have 24-28% trained dexterity on average.What is so wrong with having mages or their walls train dexterity to reduce dexterity CTH and evasion to reduce the weapon + .

In the past it was always accepted that DD would do less damage due to the fact it always hits......never misses.and Tanks would do more damage if they could hit.

That was the old dichotomy and it worked until USD caused fervor due to extremely large weapons.That is now a thing of the past with ENC.

Now mages might complain about AMF.But with NSC's and another recently added new DD ....SG.I think that concern is also eliminated.

Eliminating defensive dexterity granted from evasion is the only way to restore balance.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 26 2008 3:31 PM EDT

Dex works as offence for tanks, making mages train two things at a penalty just to have a chance at making it to melee isn't going to work...

On the other side of things however, I've long been of the opinion that the minus to hit of evasion is what needs toning down... Either by the much loathed decaying method, or simply not making the bonus in ranged a multiplier to the effect.

I do think mages should have to cough up NW to be able to dodge the blows of massive tanks. Most of the suggestions I've seen aren't going to allow mages to survive against the power of the typical tank attack no matter how much they put into a set of db.

Mikel July 26 2008 3:42 PM EDT

"I do think mages should have to cough up NW to be able to dodge the blows of massive tanks. Most of the suggestions I've seen aren't going to allow mages to survive against the power of the typical tank attack no matter how much they put into a set of db."

I survive just fine vs most tanks with my big DB's. Only ones that really get to me are the uber-usd pumped weapons.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 26 2008 3:45 PM EDT

Our db are really even more of an aberration than the large weapons Mikel... getting a pair to +200 is costly enough for a defensive only item...

If a mage matches the XP expenditure of a tanks dex, and matches the NW of the plus of the weapon why shouldn't the tank miss...

Mikel July 26 2008 3:56 PM EDT

Well the EH could use a big buff vs the DD spells.

Most people don't use that item anymore, and with my high HP Setup, I last 3 rounds longer vs LA when I have on my TSA vs my EH, kinda sad that's it's so ineffective.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 26 2008 4:12 PM EDT


Not a whole lot to do with the current topic but sure the EH could use a buff...

the perceived disadvantage of tanks because of evasion seems to be most of the topic here...

Mikel July 26 2008 4:45 PM EDT

It's ok, I should've been more clear about why I posted about EH, SG is a very powerful spell, by the time the EH gets to work against it, it's % is already halved enough times to make it useless. My TSA reduces the damage of it by the same amount by the time the SG casts.

I'm pretty sure because of SG, that is another reason why there is less tanks now than before.

and speaking of items:
The NSC's are another item that is a bit too strong, the options there is either to buff up AMF or lower the effectiveness of using them vs AMF.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 26 2008 5:02 PM EDT

I've yet to see anything resembling a decent argument about the NSC. AMF was and is a complete foil for magic, more powerful than any other defensive spell by a large amount. With EC and evasion it's an all or nothing deal. AMF has an effect even if it's much smaller than the DD, get to the point where it matches the DD and there is NOTHING (including massive NSC) that a mage can do. Raising DD doesn't help much (whereas tanks can simply move past the barrier set by evasion or EC) and the NSC cap out in effect really quickly.

Before the NSC a mage had very little chance of being top 5, let alone taking the top. It was ToE or relegation to the bottom half of the top 20. NSC give mages a chance, and nerfing them is really silly.

My 9M DD does less than 1.5m a round to you on average, you cast AMF for .28 on me even after 50m NW of NSC. You regen 500k HP a round. You don't even have to hit me with your RBF to kill my mage who has better than 8m HP. Where is the imbalance?

Mikel July 26 2008 8:40 PM EDT

If it wasn't for my Mage Shield, you'd destroy me very fast with your EF. EF/SG is too strong of a spell damage wise.

My elb archer couldn't do that much damage in one hit anymore after the numerous nerfs done to it during ranged. Which is the main reason I stopped using an Elb.

So where is the balance?

QBPixel Sage July 26 2008 8:48 PM EDT

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that making it really "balanced" by changing this or nerfing that at this point is virtually impossible without nearly re-writing everything. Once you "balance out" one thing, something else becomes unbalanced, and someone will take the hit.

I guess we can suggest improvements, and I'm all for that. But if we want total balance, or close to it, then I smell CB3.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 8:55 PM EDT

Actually it had balance before the defensive dexterity addition.But then weapons were cranked up very high and defensive dexterity was added to help mages survive tank blender.Now that we have ENC limiting the power of weapons we need to get back to the basics in regards to dexterity and evasion.

Unfortunatly the mages do not want to give up they're current advantage.That is the fact.

QBPixel Sage July 26 2008 9:05 PM EDT

I've been on CB for quite a few years, and I don't remember a time where no one complained about an imbalance of something.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 26 2008 9:06 PM EDT

"You are all forgetting the true purpose of evasion which is obviously to counter weapon PTH."

It's to counter Dex mainly. As mentioned above, Tanks get offense and defense form trainng Dexterity. If Mages were to train equivalent XP into Dex and only receive defense from it (thereofre having a DD equivalent to aTank STR) then they need a CB2 way to boost thier damage to compete with Tanks, which is what weapons do.

Or DD would need to be massively increased.

Originally, back in CB1, DBs were introduced to counter wepaon PTH, when Spid showed that Dex was meaningless if you had a large enough PTH onyour weapon. As you were still able to double/tripple/plus hit, as the Dex versus Dex equation only limited a maximum of two possible hits.

So DBs were introduced. At the same upgrade cost (cheap) as the big 4 weapons.

This still left Mages with no way to counter the 1/2 possible hits a Tank had over them from pure Dexterity. No way at all. EC never was, and never has, been the answer to that.

So in CB2 -PTH (from DBs) was changed to reduce the Dex based CTH as well. Without anything else to stack to this again it was rather meaninless as your DBs were supposed to equally counter someones weapon. But it helped with smaller people.

And Evasion gave -PTH, but it didn't stack with DBs. It sucked.

So Evasion was given Defensive Dex. The choice was save the XP,spend cash and use DBs (and if you're big enough eat into that Dex), or Train Evasion and get the full package.

Evasion has to offer more defensively than Dex, otherwise there is no reason to train it. Scrap Evasion and expect everyone, Mages included, to Train Dex.

Then we're back to Mage Weapons, or massively pumping DD damage, as above.

Which would be a problem for MM/FB, as CB can't have Ranged damage be too great, otherwise what point is there going past Ranged when you can quite easily kill a full team during it.

As for SG, it can't be too powerful, when versus a single target CoC deals more damage. Both hit in Ranged, CoC does more dmaage. Therefore CoC must be too powerful.

But SG has it's special. The special is powerful. But an analogy I used a while ago;

Why does no one use a BoNE over a Morg? The BoNE does more damage, so must be the best, right? But the special on the Morg makes it more attractive to use than the BoNE. SG to CoC.

Evasion (leaving DBs out of this, but make sure DBs *cannot* stack in any way) should be changed so that it's -PTH cannot reduce Dex based CTH, as it already has Dex protection.

SG. What to do? Scrap it? Or make the other DDs more interesting to use? FB and MM aren't worth thier XP now Days. Only the concentrated damage of CoC (or SG) is worth training. Due to reduction layers. How many times do you hear of "ZOMG! Overpowered FB/MM"? Give us back diversity, by making the other DD spells actually worth training. There's enough damage reudtion layers to cope with this, even if you buff the MGS back to it's former glory.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 26 2008 9:08 PM EDT

"Now that we have ENC limiting the power of weapons "

ENC isn't a problem for Single Tanks/Archers. And multi minion teams need to decide to use the rest of the team to pump/support the Tank if they want to use really big weapons.

If anything, ENC was a multi minion team nerf. And one I fully support. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 26 2008 9:10 PM EDT

"This still left Mages with no way to counter the 1/2 possible hits a Tank had over them from pure Dexterity. No way at all. EC never was, and never has, been the answer to that."

And as it was then, to is now, 1/2 hits fromt he largest weapons are all you need to "1 Hit Kill" anyway...

Unless we're looking at 500+ AC backed by ToE auras and PL. :/ Bleh.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 9:37 PM EDT

"Actually it had balance before the defensive dexterity addition."

that is not my recollection at all! unless by balance you mean tanks and usd owning. furthermore, it was a much different game any ways and unless you are saying to revert all of the changes since that time and before it then that comparison is worthless.

as for it being hopeless and needing cb3, i do not think that is true at all. i still hold that we are damn close and it is small nudges and tweaks to get us there. remember jon has variables in all of these calculations that can be easily changed. this brings up another point, if we ask for major changes to game mechanics to bring about balance that is much less likely to happen than just changing the variables we have.

so instead of major changes to shocking grasp, we are likely to be more successful asking for the cost curve to be increased or the effect to be reduced.

QBRanger July 26 2008 9:53 PM EDT

and thinking like this is why I gave up. perhaps everyone should play a tank before they can say how balanced things are. have we all forgot Koy was a coc mage before I got DAWGs mh and became a tank. and was still number one or two, fighting it out with DAWG. mage have it so freaking easy now.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 26 2008 10:06 PM EDT

We're all very sorry for thinking. We'll try and do better...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 10:09 PM EDT

wasn't your massive net worth mage likely even more of an aberration than your large mh though? haven't we also pretty much accepted the fact that with that kind of nw, it was hard not to pwn especially pre-encumbrance days? did you also have the large tat already then?

i am curious about something as well. you talk of how only big changes will be able to return us to balance and make tanks playable at all, but was anyone using evasion to actually win against you. i had one of the largest and you still beat me handily, until i started monkeying with it during the free retrain that is.

as far as i know there was only one or two evasions near my level and the worst you did was stalemating one of them and beating the other. is that accurate or am i mistaken?

i could get my evasion up, as i did during the free retrain, to where i could stalemate you every time. it would have left me quite open to dd attacks though. isn't this just rock/paper/scissors?

Mikel July 26 2008 10:23 PM EDT

"i could get my evasion up, as i did during the free retrain, to where i could stalemate you every time. it would have left me quite open to dd attacks though. isn't this just rock/paper/scissors?"

So with that said, where's the r/p/s of using AMF to counter SG?

Even with my big and multiple SG's, LA still does over 2.5 mil damage to me each round.

Even vs an Evasion minion, I could not get that good of a hit with my Elb anymore, and remember, vs evasion, I only get one hit in the reduced ranged rounds.

and Nov, put your head back onto your shoulders please.

Windwalker July 26 2008 10:26 PM EDT

So it's three Oxcha,Edyit and Failure. My mistake ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 10:52 PM EDT

the r/p/s dynamic is more like evasion is the counter to physical damage but does nothing for dd. so therefore the r/p/s dynamic with your example mikel would be that amf does that to your sg, but it does nothing against physical damage/robf damage, etc.

Mikel July 26 2008 11:00 PM EDT

And I'm trying to tell you Dude that even with a big AMF/Mage Shield and all of my other +'s, he is still capable of dishing out over 2.5 mil per hit with his SG.

And if I increase my AC, what happens then? will he get an even better hit on me, because SG is Vorpal like?

What if I go the other way and go pretty much Naked? It'll still dish out roughly the same as before.

Also with SG, I am seeing that it is very consistent damage, I'm curious if the Random Mod that exists in the other DD's is even in this one.

Zaekyr July 26 2008 11:15 PM EDT

If Evasion is just supposed to counter dexterity then why not simply train dexterity to counter dexterity.

Here I quote when defensive dexterity was granted by evasion and introduced long before encumbrance existed:

AdminJonathan, December 31 2005 7:24 PM EST
Evasion gives bonus to effective DX on defense equal to the evasion level

BL additional damage capped at 75%

TSA magic penalty increased to 10%

I am really surprised that no one remembers this.

That defensive dexterity was an addition in response to weapons being so large that a mage could not keep up and defend against tanks.

People then were calling it tankblender.

Now that we have ENC that will cripple a tank for using a weapon that is too large we should not have to worry about tank blender.

Now the problem is dexterity granted by evasion eliminates dexterity PTH from tanks so we have no chance to hit there.Then we have the evasion granted negative to hit which eliminates CTH from weapon + .

Can any one see the math here? no chance to hit and do damage due to dexterity and no chance to hit and do damage due to negative PTH.

No chance to hit for a tank means no chance to do damage.

True not all mages are running evasion but soon there will be no need for them to.Cause there will be so few tanks.

I personally believe the balance should be 50/50 mages and tanks roughly.It won't be that way for long.

Now all I am asking is for is an elimination of free defensive dexterity since weapons can no longer be hugely overpowered.

If we find that it is still out of balance because weapons are too big we can simply adjust ENC levels to compensate.

Like I have said tanks are training 24-28% dexterity while mages are training 32-50% evasion and getting more defensive dexterity on an equal level than a tank is training.

So this currently means,assuming equal MPR,mages hit 100% of the time and tanks hit 0% of the time.

I am open to all manner of other adjustments such as reducing physical weapon damage or adjusting base weapon to hit.

But first things first,free defensive dexterity needs to go.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 11:17 PM EDT

ah, now i see what you are saying, i was confused a bit, sorry.

i do think that the new spell needs tweaking, i have said that often.

the normal counters would be amf and the mage shield though. i have said as well that i think amf actually needs a little love as well. during the freetrain, i put varying amounts of xp into it and really was sad to see how little it helped.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 11:26 PM EDT

zaek, you weren't even here at that time were you?

i see no where that jon stated the reason for doing it, but this was within the first year of cb2. the usd spenders were really just getting going after jon had shut down tattoo loaning, but the weapons were not that big just because of the lack of cb money floating around. we really didn't see much cb dollars for sale until nubs and their bonuses arrived on the scene and had a few months to start collecting it. i hardly think that jon made this change to combat something that most of us didn't even realize or admit to being a problem until like a year later or so.

my memory doesn't serve me perfectly, but this is what i remember of the environment during that time. as for why jon actually did change it at that time, i am not real sure other than that even before the linear damage change tanks were already starting to own somewhat. remember we were all just getting going and we all had pretty similar mpr's as well as tat levels, except for a few, but even those weren't all that much larger. i think these similarities made it easier to see disparities at that point.

QBPixel Sage July 26 2008 11:31 PM EDT

Haha, you got confused dudemus? This whole thread is confusing for me.

I wonder if Jon even bothers to read threads like this. So much discussion and drama.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 11:41 PM EDT

i pretty much stay confused pix, and while we are at it, i have been meaning to say welcome back to ya! ; )

Zaekyr July 26 2008 11:42 PM EDT

The most important reason Jon made the change was the ToA archers with massive ELB's. I remember it quite well.He made further adjustments which basically ended up nerfing archery.

There were only three rounds of ranged then and most archers were killing entire teams in those rounds.

Another big thing around that time was the HoC which allowed an extra round in there.The people that didn't have them complained quite a bit.

Jon over all this time has made numerous adjustments to pth in different ways.

And non USD tanks most especially have been hoping for some love for the PAST THREE YEARS.

Mainly because those adjustments Jon has been making in all this time have been against tank CTH Due to USD spending Tanks beating up on all the Mages.


Now that we have ENC to limit tank power we need to allow the possibility of tanks to hit to be competetive.

Sorry for the caps but you guys really aren't very good at reading.
You are all taking individual points and misconstruing the topic.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 26 2008 11:44 PM EDT


A member of Carnage Blender since February 19, 2007.

was this a past-life memory?

superior me July 26 2008 11:56 PM EDT

deds char:

Power 3,770,444
MPR 2,834,296
Net Worth $104,842,904

ancients anubus char:

Power 5,835,108
MPR 3,484,328
Net Worth $644,933,546

Soul Collector (The Knighthood) igot noname (F)(+) (death by jabberwocky) igot noname 11 9:32 PM EDT

if that doesnt prove mine and rangers and a few other tanks(now the minority of cb) point that evasion and RoBF is way overpowered even more so in combination theres is no way ded should be able to beat ancient who has more than 2m more power 650k MPR and 540m NW difference seems fair huh?

even you ded must know how out of whack that is, in a fair game SC should wipe the floor with you no worries but in reality you beat him 50/50

and despite all this ded u still find it difficult to admit fault or unbalance in the game, even mikel running a RoBF evasion start can admit it is overpowered to some extent and ranger with SG/EF he created posts on how abusive it is whilst using it

so life must be sweet through your rose colored glasses, hey?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 12:01 AM EDT

i have stated that evasion does need some tweaks, and even offered suggestions for how i think it should be done. was i not dramatic enough whilst doing it?

i also have to ask why do you insist upon callig me ded? ; )

QBRanger July 27 2008 12:02 AM EDT

Please do not forget that the AoF adds massive amounts to evasion, 3% per +, while tanks have no correlate to boost their dexterity.

This virtually eliminates any chance a tank may have of getting a dex hit.

Also, my MH, on the tank with the highest strength at x11,000 did about 800k a hit to an average AC minion. Less if there was a TOE. Far from the instakill weapons of yesteryear. I could have used BL to boost it, but then I had to worry about the 1 hit=complete strength drain of the exbows.

I could have tried to use DB's but then oops---ENC comes into play.

So while tanks have had to worry about evasion, then ENC, they get SG to deal with. An always hitting spell that does MORE damage to tanks since they wear better armors.

Any wonder I have been frustrated???

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 12:08 AM EDT

true ranger, the aof is very nice and possibly too nice.

someone may have mentioned this one before, but i wonder how far it would go to helping if the aof only boosted the evasion effect but did not actually boost the def dex boost. if that wasn't enough then eliminate the def dex boost from elvens as well?

superior me July 27 2008 12:31 AM EDT

oh i thought it was dedemus but its dudemus sorry :)

but dud do you honestly think comparing you and SC, do you think you should be able to beat him? even with the large difference in every stat thats ment to matter he has biggest tat in game biggest SoD 10m str 6m dex there should be no comparison imo, dont get me wrong your char is nice but nothing on SC :)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 12:39 AM EDT

decay allows much lower characters to beat me as well. that is part of the rock paper scissors dynamic we have here. i really haven't looked at his character to determine why i can beat him as he is likely adjusting it. at the top though it should be the same as down low. in effect there should be no winning strategy, they can all be beat by something else.

with that in mind, target selection becomes important. if evasion owns you, do not fight evasion teams. in summary, just because you cannot beat someone does not mean they are using an abusive strategy. now when no one can beat something, then that is when there may be an abusive strategy. the robf used to be pretty darn close to this, but with recent adjustments it is much less so and probably balanced well at this point.

my character is also, as far as i know, the largest minion in the game. i have over 160 million xp to play with on one single minion and at this point i train only 1 stat and a skill. that is some pretty amazing xp concentration in my opionion.

Zaekyr July 27 2008 12:49 AM EDT

I am not sure why that is like that.But I do know that I started a character not long after I stopped driving truck in late 05.

The only thing I can say is that if you know anything about archmage and its history.When archmage started up again after a long absence is when I first started a character in CB after learning about it from some people playing archmage.

Perhaps I am wrong about the date,but I do know why the changes were coming about which is what this post is about.I remember several weeks after I started 2 million mpr was the milestone to be considered a top player.

In any case this still doesn't address the issue at hand.

Come up with a decent argument about why mages need to have defensive dexterity besides making it a 0% chance for tanks to hit.

Bottom line is no matter what you want for an adjustment.....whether it be reduced physical damage or reduced base CTH of weapons or even re adjusted evasion curve it will all require defensive dexterity to disappear in order for tanks to have fair play.

Simply saying we might need a small adjustment doesn't help the dilemma.

Mikel July 27 2008 1:01 AM EDT

just to prove a point, I just put on an Adam +86 (named) fought LA and he did on avg 3 mil damage on avg to me.

With the TSA, it is roughly (and -40 ish AC) he hits for about 2 mil to 2.6 mil per hit.

I strip down to nothing but the TSA, Mage Shield, and DB's and he still does pretty much the same amount as if I had on my Tulks, Hod, AoAC and SC.

All that vs a 0.29 AMF as well.

Little Anthony July 27 2008 1:07 AM EDT

Bite me :P

Bide me :P

Buy me :P

QBsutekh137 July 27 2008 1:18 AM EDT

dude, a lot of things are going to affect you that may not affect others, you are single minion. The "edge effects" will get you first. *smile*

In contrast, you get to concentrate your MPR more than any other team (or as much as, anyway).

You have agreed that Evasion could use tweaks. That's good! I wonder if everyone finally admits that if Jonathan will change something. :\

QBOddBird July 27 2008 1:42 AM EDT

so I take it Ranger is staying. :) This is good news.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 27 2008 4:50 AM EDT

"If Evasion is just supposed to counter dexterity then why not simply train dexterity to counter dexterity."

It's been mentioned why, I also had the reason in my TL:DR post. ;)

Native Dexterity gives both defense and offense. Only Tanks/Archer get any use from the offensive side of Dexterity.

Ask mages to train equivalent Dexterity to Tanks, and then you *need* to compensate their DD, as STR to DD, STR will always do more damage due to Weapons.

It really is that sinmple.

As for AMF and Evasion, it's because there are two distinct types of counters in CB.

Physical has a binary all or nnothing system (which some hate), Magical has layers upon layers of percentile reducitons.

There isn't enough reduction layers in the game (currently) for Physical Damage to make the switch and remove or change Evasion from it's binary nature.

Get rid of being able to stop one/all of the physical hits (and really, you have to aim for stopping all, as without the reduciton layers a signle hit is likely enough to 1 hit kill you anyway) without adding things like Cause Fear (a percentage Damage reduciton to Physical damage) there would be no way to manage Physical damage.

Whether it's intended or not, there are two distinct playstyles. Constant DD which can be chipped lower and lower to make managable.

And a "Play me big, win me big" all or nothing approach of Physical damage.

That's why we currently have Evasion and AMF as is.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 27 2008 4:51 AM EDT

"And if I increase my AC, what happens then? will he get an even better hit on me, because SG is Vorpal like?"

SG only increases by Base AC. So you could up the enchantments on yor Armour (if possible due to cost) which will reduce SG damage without boosting it any.

Maybe the humble Combat Gi is one of the best anti SG armours in CB. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 27 2008 5:00 AM EDT


"but dud do you honestly think comparing you and SC, do you think you should be able to beat him?"

CB has always been about finding a way to 'Exploit' strategies higher up than you, to earn the big rewards.

It's been done before, by various things.

Usually, it leaves you open to others though.

I like to use SacredPeanut as a great exmaple of this. hen Johnny and I were running our UC minion competition, SP had a great anti tank 4 minion EC set up. It let him obliterate Tanks far higher than himself, by reducing STR and DEX to zero. He was beating me quite easily about a 4th of my size (IIRC).

He was, in turn taken down by any Mage team, as he had no defense versus them.

No one, not a single players in CB though that that at the time was Overpowered. That someone, so small coul beat teams so big, just by using a specific strategy versus them.

So why is it a problem now?

You say you have no hope versus Evasion. I had no hope versus 4 x EC on a much smaller team. Same situation isn't it?

Tchoob July 27 2008 5:31 AM EDT

GL, 4 minion EC requires investing all your MPR, while leaving nothing to counter mages. Besides, there are counters - my Hal is nearing 4M in both Str and Dex, it is enough to counter most ECs. With Evasion it is different - you can be both deadly to tanks and competitive against mages. And you can't counter Evasion.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 27 2008 5:56 AM EDT

How does Evasion let you be comeptitive versus Mages?

Tchoob July 27 2008 6:17 AM EDT

Sorry for being unclear - 4 EC strat requires spending all your MPR into EC. With Evasion + RoBF or Evasion SFBM you still have exp left to spend on other things. That's what I meant.

superior me July 27 2008 7:41 AM EDT

GL i get what your saying but the evasion RoBF strat can quite easily take out tanks on its own however the same setup can have a bit of hp added or mage wall(if adding minions) aswell as a large amf and it is extremely formatable against mages very few, if you can honestly say there is no need for a evasion tweak?..... if evasion is nerfed it will give people a chance to kill the RoBF user which means RoBF may not need a nerf at all.

but with EC it has to match half of your total exp in str nd dex combined however which is still think is bs however im single minion and their isnt many SM EC teams because it just wouldnt work :) unless u strap a RoBF or familiar (hmmm kind of like that strat could kill tanks 2x your mpr even if their solo) but yeah back to my point but with a evasion 1/4 of my dex would neutralize me so evasion at 1/10 if my combined str nd dex should be able to stop me from hitting at all? well almost when it takes 1/2 for EC to do the same, and keep in mind im single minion so i dont cop it as bad as people sharing their exp between 4 minions and losing out because of relatively low dex and str

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 8:19 AM EDT

sup, i realize that you are very new to the game and that you have probably been reading through some of the old posts to get your info. some of that info is out of date though and the robf has been tweaked downwards already.

prior to the last change, i had only six people in the game that could win regularly against me. there were alot though that i could not beat and just a whole boatload in the middle that stalemated me. magic reduction could be total with a fairly nominal investment in amf.

check out my fightlist now though and you will notice a major difference. instead of only the biggest in the game beating me, i now have several that are 60 to 70% of my mpr that can beat me all of the time. some of those use the new spell, most use decay.

if you are still saying that the robf is nigh invulnerable, you are just downright wrong at this point in the game.

superior me July 27 2008 8:44 AM EDT

im saying its a probably the least vulnerable of that strats commonly used. if you train an amf of 4x base decay it would be 1.00 leaving you invulnerable to decay... why dont you do that?

however i think the RoBF should become a BFF this would make it less overpowered as it would become targetable through msb or ex/axbow depending on its class this would add a viable counter to RoBF evasion setups

in 2 weeks time if RoBF and evasion are not nerfed in the next 2 weeks i'll make an acc with exp on 1/2 hp 1/4 evasion 1/4 amf using

lvl 1.2m RoBF (near my MTL)

because if i cant beat em join em :) just like ranger with his EF (until he quit) and my score rise will be evident proof that this setup is overpowered (abusively imo just my opinion to which im entitled)

we can think of it as an experiment of sorts :)

VivaPinata July 27 2008 8:46 AM EDT

I would just probably make a character. Making another account doesn't seem to work too well...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 8:55 AM EDT

during the free retrain i played with all of the ratios and up until about a week ago i used amf. it was rock/paper/scissors all the way and if i got it high enough to shut down decays, i left myself open to other things. amf just really gets difficult to keep up with the level of the highest dd's in the game even with my xp concentration.

my new set up has left me a bit more open, approximately 3 more people were able to beat me continually. i am waiting to get it up to the nw i had on the other strat before i make my decision on its worth though.

i would highly encourage you to try out the robf, i believe then that you will see it has the same issues as all of the other strats now do. it is quite easy for us to see our natural foil in the game and chock it up to being overpowered, we tend to think though that when we beat someone much higher that we are just more strategic or clever. in reality, they are usually both just the dynamics of the game.

superior me July 27 2008 9:06 AM EDT

i ment change my character from tank archer to RoBF evasion abuser :) had to through last bit in :P

i know RoBF evasion strat has some weaknesses but its nothing compared to archer vs evasion not even remotely close i cannot beat anyone with a half decent evasion im sure you can beat people with large DD's with you hp nobody could kill you before your RoBF gets a hit in so even though you have to wait 5 round you still get to hit were as i dont get to hit despite my free 5 rounds.

also my max with a 4m bow and 307k str is around 65k so for fun lets pretend i hit the maximum 3 times so 195k tops highly unlikely to hit that even more so with evasion being so overpowered, but since were just being hypothetical im hitting 3x a round. however with a RoBF near my MTL i can hit 330k and its a nice garanteed hit plus i dont have to invest in large weapons

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 9:17 AM EDT

your stats seem fine.

Score 749,514
Power 352,252
MPR 339,673

your score is over double your mpr as well as your pr for that matter.

as for comparing a minion's damage to a max tat damage, that is really not a good comparison.

i would highly suggest that you change over if you are so sure it will be that uber. until you really start playing with the different strategies, it is hard to see the rock/paper/scissors nature of the game. have you been using the same strat since you started? if you do the switch, through much testing i have found that an even 1/3 ratio for hp, evasion and amf was actually the best up high.

it is truly a different game at different levels though and your idea may work as well or even better down below.

superior me July 27 2008 9:27 AM EDT

my score to pr/mpr ratio is only like that because i use a msb and my fightlist has to be selected extremely carefully which si become much harder as i rise in score

thanks for the tip il beef up amf and evasion when i get into the strat a bit but i was planning on having high hp and a 10m nw or so mgs to block mage damage rather than recoil it and let my RoBF do the work but that will have to change to what you told me when i get higher as EF/SG will start to come into the equation

but from what i can remember you were a tank and archer as well i think, so you must have seen some advantage of defensive RoBF over tank archer

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 9:33 AM EDT

you can't use amf and mage shield on a single minion, if that is what you were planning.

i was a fireball mage and at some points magic missile, toe user. as a single-minion with only one kill slot or two with a familiar, the robf is really the best set up as concentrated xp is the only way to compete with the kill slots of least in my humble opinion.

as for what i have been that would be in your memory, since your account is less than two weeks old, during that time i have only changed from the 1/3 hp/eva/amf to my current setup! ; )

iBananco [Blue Army] July 27 2008 9:41 AM EDT

Speaking from experience, current RoBF setups are extremely vulnerable to magic.

superior me July 27 2008 9:45 AM EDT

oh i must be geting confused between you and the SMT's because i used to look at character standings 1 minion top 5 for tank strats and ideas and your name was probably there some where amongst the tanks :)

oh that blows :( hmmm i think ill go 2/3 hp 1/3 evasion with a beefed up MgS AoI EB EG Cab and RoBF

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 27 2008 9:49 AM EDT

aof will likely serve you much better.

QBRanger July 27 2008 10:00 AM EDT

Interesting discussion.

However does it change the fact of the initial post?

The key points, with my suggestions on making the game better: At least according to the world of Ranger/PM.

1) Evasion is just too powerful for the xp. And given the super boost of the AOF, tanks cannot keep up. Tweaks are not needed, a redo of what and how evasion works is needed. It has been for 6+ months now and nothing but minor tweaks were done. Well you know, those SMALL tweaks have not worked. Like lowering it BIT in missile. We gave your small tweaks a chance. And still evasion is too powerful.

2) SG is too freaking powerful. And the fact AC inflates the damage makes it worse for tanks. Why play a tank when you can autohit and almost instakill with little AMF backlash. Especially with NSC's on.

3) NSC's are too powerful. Especially with the nerf to the MgS, the NSC has to be balanced. Especially since the new spell was unleashed on the world.

4) Melee tanks need love, tons of it. Right now they have to live through missile rounds, which is much harder given the AC/protections/MgS nerf. Then they have to hit, and do damage.

5) Weapon Allowance has to be raised. It is too low.

6) There needs to be a reason to use DB's. Right now basically only TOA archers need them. Others use evasion with EB's. Perhaps lower evasions effect and rethink the way DBs interact with evasion. Make mages or evasion minions actually have to spend CB to be missed. Enough of this free triple dipping.

7) The RBF's damage has to be vulnerable to GA. A few reasons, but here is one. Make RBF users choose between DM to nerf GA or AMF to lower magic damage. Then I can see an increase in the RBF's magic resistance. A nice R/P/S axis. Not everyone uses GA, however enough do to make it more interesting then the boring strategy it is now.

8) Get a weapon artist. Make it cost 4% of the NW of the weapon up to 4M maximum. This will allow tanks to try the new weapons out and with all the changes, see if the help. The last free retrain was 100% bogus. For tanks that is.

9) Jon needs to be a little less secretive. If he knows after 2 weeks that SG is overpowered, then let the community know something about it, that would really stop a lot of the arguments in the forums.

10) Return to good times---And with that, I am OUT.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 27 2008 10:55 AM EDT

"amf just really gets difficult to keep up with the level of the highest dd's in the game even with my xp concentration"

Like Evasions super boost form the AoF? AMF has at best a Corn and Spellboosters to boost it.

DD can have AG and CoI, plus the AoF if Junctioned. There's no way AMF can keep up with DD due to the items that can boost it.

Same as EC versus STR or DEX.

But then there's nothing in game currently that can lower EO's.

Cube July 27 2008 11:35 PM EDT


And Amf becomes much more effective if you have other forms of damage reduction, which is hard to achieve on a single minion (because then they are doing more damage to themselves than to you).
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