July 27 2008 3:11 AM EDT
So, I just started another NCB. And I immediately went with evasion and then -immediately- questioned why that was my natural inclination. What, in my mind, forces me to use evasion.
And then I got it. Evasion is the ONLY thing that, completely by itself, can play defense. FB/Evasion/HP WORKS because of this. That may be what makes it over powered, if it is.
Now, of course, many disagree that it's unbalanced at all. But I do believe that it could use a change.
Evasion allows someone to maintain a... constant in their fighting. ANY team who relies on tanks will lose to a large enough evasion. It doesn't matter if I have 0 AC, 20 HP and no other form of defense, if they can't hit me, they lose.
AMF and AC and ToE all require (or are at least aided by) stacking defense. Multiple things layered together to absorb and nullify damage. But evasion does it alone, doesn't cost equipment slots (EBs and AoF help, yes, but two items should not allow you to plan an entire strategy around them.), and eliminates ALL damage.
Now, here I reach a moral dilemna. I don't want evasion to change, because it allows single minion, no tattoo wearing character to exist.... But should they? I mean, how much more boring could playing get?
So, I propose a change to evasion. And yes, I know, it's quite large, but it should maintain evasion as a very useful skill, but without the complete nullification of damage.
It would work similar to AMF, having a dual effect. The majority of the effect would still go into simply dodging the attack. This would be possible for any amount of attacks above the 1st. After you evaded the first X of X+1 attacks, the last arrow/swing would hit you. This would ALWAYS happen, regardless of the evasion level.
But, the last swing/strike would be subject to a damage penalty. This would allow the tank a certain amount of security in choosing that as it's form of damage. Promised damage. But it would allow players to still have a suitable form of damage reduction, without having to augment physical damage output.
As to how this would interact with DX, I think it could do the same thing. This would allow smaller tanks to at least have a change with larger ones... But I'm not an expert. The two systems may end up being very hard to put together.
In any event, I think this could be a good change. Feedback would be wonderful.
P.S. If this turns into another flame war, please just close the thread. If you think it's OP or not or whatever, just look at it as an individual suggestion towards an in game mechanic.
Flame! flame flame flame!
No I'm only kidding. I personally think it's a brilliant idea. First off, let me congratulate you on identifying the main reasons evasion is overpowered, and then going on to explain exactly how it is just that. w00h!
I like the idea of having it similar to AMF. How about the first hit of each round could be completely avoided if the evasion level is high enough, and each consecutive hit for that round is subject to a damage penalty, possibly even going up on a curve. For example:
HK-47's attack was avoided by Meatbag!
HK-47's blow glances off of Meatbag (1,000)!
HK-47 gouged deep into Meatbag (2,500)!
HK-47 carved into Meatbag (7,500)!
As you can see, the damage is on an upgrade curve. This is of course, assuming HK-47 has a low damage otuput of maybe 30k tops (however I think 15-20k would be more acceptable in this case). The curve would simulate fatigue and also being wounded. They would be easier to hit due to fatigue, and wouldn't be able to avoid hits as well so they take more damage.
But that's just an idea that could possibly work. Took me a few minutes to think that up, so refining and tuning is of course required. I'm going to shut up and let somebody else take the floor.
" mean, how much more boring could playing get?"
Any 4 minion team with a pure HP Wall and a PL/TSA battery.
I seriously disagreed when Jon said single minions were boring or easy (can't remember the exact quote).
Single is harder than multi minion. You can't have all the good toys together. you can't have AMF and a MGS. AMF and EC. Can't even use PL. Tattoo or Body Armour.
It's hard strategic choices you need to make when using a single minion, compared to a multi minion team, where really, you can have everything you want. ;)
July 27 2008 5:48 AM EDT
How about evasion no longer granting defensive DX instead ?
And that's about the only change needed.
Want defensive DX ? Just train plain DX instead, evasion would work just like displacement boots.
Or, you could keep the defensive DX effect, however re-scale the evasion effect (toning it down a lot, say, highest effective evasion ingame now should barely have a 200 effect, if even that much), and also rescale the displacement boots NW to match the evasion effect nerf.
You can't change DBs. Their costs is equal to the PTH on the big wepaons.
I'd agree with nerfing the -PTH on Evasion (and as in the other thread, make Evasions -PTH unable to reduced the dex based CTH), as long as you make Evasion and DBs than stack properly.
But then that would lead to people training Evasion and using DB instead of EBs and becoming unhittable.
It's the nature of Evasion itself.
Either it can make you unhittable, or it's never worth training.
If you don't want Evasion to make people unhittable, you need to change the underlying mechanics of the game.
July 27 2008 8:52 AM EDT
as far as i see it if you fight someone who has evasion of 1m and dbs +100 you should miss almost all the time however if you have 1.5m dex and a bow with +150 you should hit a minimum of once per round aswell as a .5 CTH. like a linear approuch to evasion and DB AoI vs dex and + of weapons because a 50k evasion with no dbs should not stop em from hitting with a +50 bow and 200k dex it just doesnt make sense
"because a 50k evasion with no dbs should not stop em from hitting with a +50 bow and 200k dex it just doesnt make sense"
50K of Evasion gives around -32 PTH. The archer would still have 150K Dex bonus and about +8 PTH.
Unless of course your talking about the Ranged bonuses. But then that's to make matches last longer, and not force everyone to go Ranged.
The Evasion rnaged bonuses were aded in before the nerf to Ranged damage. If Ranged damage has been pulled back enough, I don't see the need for the Ranged bonuses to Evasion any more.
July 27 2008 12:00 PM EDT
Archers also got a nerf when upgraded ammo was removed.
Wasn't the damage bonus from 'normal' ammo rolled in? And didn't just about everyone hate uber upgraded ammo?
July 27 2008 12:52 PM EDT
Removing upgraded ammo doesn't really count as a nerf; considering it was thought of as an abberation by most people. I think with the bigger picture in mind it's removal counts more as a game fix rather than an archer nerf.
July 27 2008 12:57 PM EDT
Actually quite a few people fought with +3 to +5 arrows.
Costwise they were very cheap, relatively.
That alone is 9 to 15 PTH lost.
The damage aspect was not what I was referencing.
July 27 2008 1:04 PM EDT
Doesn't make it right though does it? I wasn't against upgraded ammo, my own thought was if you can afford to maintain it then do it, but you can't have one aspect of something being wrong and the other being right. Upgraded ammo, be it x or + was either something that needed fixing or something that should have been left alone.
July 27 2008 1:23 PM EDT
I agree it was wrong and needed to be fixed.
It is just that missile weapon lost some PTH (in some cases) while evasion was not changed.
I agree with Ranger on the arrows being removed hurting rangers. With response to evasion, I think something should be fixed, but I'm too tired to get into the details.
July 27 2008 5:52 PM EDT
I will once again try to explain this for mages that have no idea what the tanks are saying.
Evasion is a vastly overpowered skill currently due to free defensive dexterity.
At equal mpr a mage using evasion or an evasion wall only needs to train 33% of trained xp to completely stop 95% of the tanks at that range(the exclusion being perhaps solo ToA).
It is possible for a tank to hit if he can afford the cb and or the ENC to put a high enough + on his weapon to hit.But even then if he achieves the CTH needed,the x on his weapon will be smaller so he is doing less damage.
The days of one hit kills for a tank are pretty much gone I think.You can now end the fear of letting tanks get a hit by realizing they cannot kill in one hit.I think at best considering the ratio of damage we could get three hit kills on average.Of course that depends on a lot of factors like AS/ToE.
Another important note about this is the fact that melee weapon users have to hit degeneration.
I don't know if Jon has ever changed this or not.
from the Wiki
This might require an example. Say you use a one-handed weapon with a DX of 2,500 and you attack someone with a DX of 250. Your ratio of 2,500/250 is 10, and 10 * H is 10 * 66% is 660%. This is capped, however, at 100% + H, or 166%. So, your final value for D is 166%. Switching the DX values (250 DX vs 2,500 DX) yields a ratio of 0.1, and 0.1 * 66% is 6.6%. CB rounds everything up, so your value for D is 7%.
This means that an attacker's CTH from DX is maximized when the Attacker to defender DX ratio is 3 at a 50% base (1.50 / 0.50). When the base is 66% or 33%, the ratio hits max at 2.51 and 4.03 respectively (1.66 / 0.66 and 1.33 / 0.33). A defender can likewise minimize an attacker's DX-based CTH (ie, reduce it to zero) when the Defender to Attacker ratio is 1.25, 1.65, or 0.825 for a 50%, 66%, or 33% attacker's base CTH, respectively (1 /(0.4 / base))
Finally, there are penalties applied that grow with each hit. Subsequent hits become increasingly hard to conduct, as with every subsequent hit, a -100% is applied to your total CTH. Call this value "R" because we're running out of letters.
All of this combines to form your total hit percentage. If it's above 0, add 5 as a little bonus to ensure a minimum chance of 5% instead of 1%, and that determines if you can hit and if you get to keep trying. Everything is added linearly, so given the above terms, you can get: D + P - R + 5.
So,this idea of making evasion degenerate probably won't work unless it degenerates faster than weapon penalties.Potentially making evasion useless rather quickly.
I have made a lot of posts on many ways this could be fixed.And yes most of them involve removing free defensive dexterity simply because it would be the easiest first step.
Remember: OTHER ADJUSTMENTS CAN BE MADE TO EVASION CURVE AND BASE WEAPON TO HIT OR REDUCING DEXTERITY DIFFERENCE GRANTED CTH.After evasion granted defensive dexterity is removed.
I know mages do not like to hear anything that would make them vulnerable so READ the above and consider it.
I am not asking for evasion to get totally nerfed I am asking for a reasonable CTH against someone of equal mpr that has a high evasion trained.Because I don't think 5% CTH is fair.I think if we can find the balance for a 40-50% chance it would be.
"At equal mpr a mage using evasion or an evasion wall only needs to train 33% of trained xp to completely stop 95% of the tanks at that range(the exclusion being perhaps solo ToA)."
You're going to have to explain that.
At equal XP expenditure of Evasion to Dex (on Mage to Tank), and assumign the curve is based on appropriate -PTH (which is something only Jon can answer), item boosts aside, the Tank will still have thier base chance to hit, every round.
Mages get the AoF (which increases AMF cast against them), EB (so no SB) and EG (so no AG) or possibly EC (so no CoI) to boost that Evasion. Not gonna happen. If it is, they don't boost thier DD above natural trained levels. And maybe a RBF (which gains nothing from items, or the Ranged boosts).
Tanks get EG, EB, GoM, MC/EC, ToA and Haste/AoL (if on Multi minion teams) to boost thier chances of hitting. Ignoring pumping PTH on weapon as well.
I hope I've not missed anything.
"Another important note about this is the fact that melee weapon users have to hit degeneration."
There is no degeneration. You've misunderstood that.
The -100% isn't round to round. It's just in place to show how many potential hits you might have in a single round.
Say you have +250 PTH (simplified example here). You're first hit always hits, as you have 100%. You're then left with +150. Your secodn hit hits as it has 100%. You're then left with +50.
Your third hit has a 50% chance of landing.
This resets each round.
I don't know if I like this solution GW, it seems a lot more convoluted than it need be. just scale evasion back, or make it only reduce tanks chances to hit down to 1 without actual DX trained.
"Tanks get EG, EB, GoM, MC/EC, ToA and Haste/AoL (if on Multi minion teams) to boost thier chances of hitting. Ignoring pumping PTH on weapon as well."
GL, you are forgetting about BoF if you have multiple minions.
certainly unrelated to this thread, if you would like some info on my character and a few battles I have that demonstrate how my tank is rendered useless against some teams (that are smaller than me) then I am more than willing to send you a CM.
Perhaps, make evasion require a certain level of trained DX to be at it's full effect. Or make it similar to archery, and the amount of evasion is dictated by the DX, and the evasion is trained to merely 'activate' the evasion. More DX = Higher evasion required. Might've been brought up before, but I haven't been following all this :)
On a side note, I'm posting this from my Nokia 6300 using Opera Mini! Go OPERA!
Requiring DX for evasion would have exactly the same effect as changing the curve, while making it needlessly more complex.
i still think that we should try just not letting the boosts, from first the aof and if that is not enough then elven gear as well, not affect the defensive dex and then see if we need to do more and going from there. i know that ranger has said the small steps are useless, but i feel that they are the only way to go at this point.
asking for major game dynamic reworks at this late stage in the game is just silly. if we actually want to see any change we should be reasonable and assume that after years of doing this jon actually has some idea of what is needed to balance his game. if we can't accept that then we should just sell out and leave.
July 27 2008 10:29 PM EDT
Well, dude. I know for a long time I have said that I don't have a problem with defensive dx as long as it is just equal to the amount of evasion trained. Or even just getting the bonus from the elven stuff, which I still think is too much. If you train 1 mil into evasion then you should get the defensive dx of 1 mil and the effect of the evasion which touches the pth with the boosting gear.
So as an example: lets say for dumb numbers sake you train 1 mil evasion and have gear that ups your evasion by 100%. Then you get the effect , the number in the ( )'s of 2 million, but you only get a defensive dex of the 1 million that you trained. If that was true. Then in ranged you would get 1.5 mil defensive dex going lower and lower till it hit 1 mil in melee. I would totally go with that, because then I feel I can keep up dex wise just from training my base dex I might be able to stay ahead, but as of now the example goes. You have 1 mil trained evasion with 100% added in gear. Now in first round of ranged you get 3 mil defensive dex and it goes down to 2 mil in melee..
Now what is really funny is I can go back and show where I have mentioned this numerous times on different threads and people said I was crazy, but now it seems to be a half good idea. I still stand by this idea as a good fix. It keep evasion worth it and the most I will get vs very very high evasion is my dex chance to hits because my dex would still be higher as long as they don't get the boosting gears to their defensive dx also.
you are crazy sox! you are still single minion by choice when jon has said that he doesn't want to encourage that kinda behavior.
as for this idea being brought up before, i am convinced there is no such thing as an original idea, but regardless of all of that, if it works then hail to the chief baby!
i do seriously apologize if it seems i am stealing your idea, that was not the intention and i really do not remember you bringing it up, but i also try to never claim any idea as original as i have had the same thing happen to me before and had what i thought was a great idea only to have it ignored and then brought up by someone else and have everyone say ooh la la.
with all of that being said, i think that if it makes people happy and jon likes it then the rest truly matters not. from this point forward i shall refer to it as sox's idea though...you can take the heat if people hate it!
making evasion doesn't reduce the last hit won't work. I will just pump massive damage and no DX or PTH. if I hit, you are dead. that doesn't seem fair either.
maybe make each lv of evasion into three part, 1 part works as 1 AC that only reduce tank damage, and 1 part grants defensive DX and the last part reduce 0.25% PTH per lv or something.
The net result is that you prevent some damage, and get hit a little less while still having some counter to big USD weapon. getting 4x lv in evasion compared to + on weapon should be difficult enough to completely nullify tank hits.
Doh! Knew I forgot something!
July 28 2008 5:23 AM EDT
how about converting evasion 100% into -PTH only no defensive dex and rescale it...
1mill evasion = -107PTH
and 1mill defensive dex
1mill evasion = -250PTH
1stly it is less "dual wielding" as people say
2ndly it is easier to tell whether the curve is too smooth or too steep
P.S. non related point... let AOF add dex =x ... tanks have everything to combat evasion other then an amulet that adds dex.. "they do have AOL that adds PTH though"
That could work Lost. but would be more absuive than now.
First you automatically remove all PTH from any weapon in the game. And the Dex based hits get reduced directly by excess -PTH. There's no longer a relationship between defensive Dex and Offensive Dex, that should lead Tanks to at least having thier base CTH.
This way makes Evasion even more overpowered! lol!
July 28 2008 7:18 AM EDT
See dude, what did I say. As soon as you said it was my idea people change the subject and start talking about other things. If I would have just let it stay as an idea you were thinking of the conversation would have continued about the idea and how good it was, but because it's coming from a single minion archer tank then it must be bad for mages and I'm just trying to take over the world, but if it was coming from you as a mage then it must be ok.
I knew I should have just let it go and said oh lala look at dudes good idea. I like that. haha
July 28 2008 7:23 AM EDT
You could still say it's dude's idea. Nobody will know. Start a new thread entitled 'Dude's Fantastic Evasion idea'.
Evasion's a tricky thing. Working without any evasion whatsoever my biggest problems are all people with big physical ranged attacks. And without fail they're smaller teams too. Evasion might give them less targets but it doesn't change how strong ranged still is.
Any fix to evasion would have to incorporate a fix to the big PTHs that currently exist that help those teams. Would have to, because otherwise they become unstoppable by all but a few with matching DBs.
July 28 2008 8:22 AM EDT
And talking of mageseekers...using Sox as an example, if evasion didn't do what it currently does I'd only need around 10 million EC to stop him! And with the PTH on that bow he'd still hit.
(Must resist temptation to use evasion for yet another char. Must resist. Must resist! I ran evasion tanks for so long that it's a little strange I can't bring myself to run an evasion mage....)
Sox also has one of the highest dexterities in the game. A 10M EC would stop pretty much any tank in its tracks, especially combined with a decent pair of DBs.
July 28 2008 8:45 AM EDT
Admittedly there are few tanks with stats as high as Sox. There a couple though floating around the higher levels. Not many people capable of running a ten million EC though. And only two pairs of DBs bigger than Sox's 220 PTH.
Where evasion is concerned, getting back to the OP.
I think the best thing you could do with evasion is to cut the defensive dex. Not entirely otherwise evasion becomes just a trainable DBs. But that would give the advantage back to a dex training tank (and god, tanks should be training dex as well as strength. Strong and Fast a tank should be).
But also make it more XP expensive to train. It's way too easy to get it to +100 and over. Otherwise - and this is from working with both sides of the equation - evasion does what it is supposed to.
If it doesn't do what it currently does then there is no point in having evasion.
Dex already has an advantage over Evasion.
Base chance to hit. Reduce Evaison in that way Johnny and i'd have to advocate removing base chance to hit.
Equal Dex to equal Evasion and the Tank has a 50%+ chance (based on type of weapon used) to land one hit pr round.
Making the extra minus to hit not effect dex is the only sane fix I've seen.
July 28 2008 2:11 PM EDT
The real question to ask is what is evasion? What does it do? What is supposed to do.
Changing it's qualities so it does something else makes it stop being evasion. Personally I think it's about right as it stands. Because unless Jon introduces a cap on weapon PTH it's needed. And if you get rid of it's ability to negate those big weapons then you open up the game to whole can of multiple strikes from very large tanks.
Get rid of the big weapons and you can 'fix' evasion. To be honest with you I might be tempted to suggest as a real fix getting rid of it. Make us go down the DB route. All those mage teams without anything to spend money on. Cash sink!
Of course then you end up with who has the biggest bank balance again don't you.
I really don't understand how anybody can think 'fixing' it is a simple thing to achieve.
"Making the extra minus to hit not effect dex is the only sane fix I've seen."
But I'd still say that change shouldn't effect DBs (or other items that give -PTH). That gives a very valid, but expensive way to deal with Defensive Dexterity without having to train Evasion (or Dex...).
On a side note, I could just see the look on nov's face if DBs stopped cutting into dex CTH too.
July 29 2008 1:17 AM EDT
You could simply make it not stack with DBs? (just choose whichever is higher). How many use DBs with evasion currently?
July 30 2008 12:38 AM EDT
I have another brilliant idea.
Part of the reason some tanks cannot hit is getting their weapon big enough to do so.
Since we have ENC limiting how big weapons can be,Why not lower the cost to upgrade weapons.
Tanks have to upgrade their armor and insta their tats too.
So tanks would still have to spend more than mages.
I am not sure how much this reduction in cost should be.But maybe 20-50% might be a decent range to consider.
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