the top of the blender is getting a little stale (in General)

Wizard'sFirstRule August 2 2008 7:03 AM EDT

I feel that I am just clicking without any strategic input what so ever. Maybe there can be a way (say $1 per MPR) to temporarily reduce (say 24 hours) the retrain penalty to allow experimentation. and a weapon trader that would swap an item with another of the same "class" (roughly translate into its "market value", so you can't trade MCMs for corns) and keep 90% of NW (weapon into armor is fine, weapon to weapon keeps its % of NW in + and x, armor to weapon translate into NW by a fixed ratio - say 50% of NW in + and 50% of NW in x). That would make the game more challenging and more than just click.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 2 2008 7:05 AM EDT

I feel that the barriers for change is too steep. even if I planned to move into a tank, losing 4% of XP probably means I drop below 6/20 and can't really afford to upgrade gear as they will be useless when I finally switch to tank.

INDColtsFan18 August 2 2008 12:53 PM EDT

I want to switch to an archer setup as well. I'm waiting for another free re-train if it ever comes. I wouldn't pay $2mil CB to retrain for free a retrain either though, $1 per MPR would get very expensive.

I would love an easier way to change strats though, I don't understand why Jon penalizes us for wanting to get more into the game and make changes and adapt. But that's part of the game, so I'm guessing it will not be changed.

The Weapon/Armor artist should be created, but not to an extreme extent as transferring 90% of NW, it should transfer 75% or so.

SuperHD August 2 2008 12:58 PM EDT

archer setup rule !

I feel that I am just clicking without any strategic input what so ever --- i think there is always a time when we have this feeling we got to keep confident and continue clicking ever more
me too i am stock now i am just clicking and upgrading my stuff for the fun of it

Dark Dreky August 2 2008 1:11 PM EDT

How about you just retrain and take the XP penalty? It's not that bad.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 2 2008 9:49 PM EDT

2 words. prospect theory. Human tend to shunt the idea of a loss.

Tyriel [123456789] August 2 2008 11:58 PM EDT

"I don't understand why Jon penalizes us for wanting to get more into the game and make changes and adapt."

Do you want to face people that are on 24/7, constantly changing their strats to beat whatever opponents are attacking them?

Do you want to have people able to change to a very specialized strategy in order to fight up higher, then switch back to their offline, balanced defensive strategy?

There's a penalty to untrain, and reasons for it. When the penalty is removed (like the, ugh, free retrains), only chaos ensues.

If allowing people to pay money in the place of experience will make things more interesting, I have no problem with it.

Cube August 3 2008 12:52 AM EDT

My solution, don't play boring single minions. You can retrain more partially.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 3 2008 2:41 AM EDT

give me 40m x 3 to hire and I will move away from boring single minion

8DEOTWP August 3 2008 2:53 AM EDT

you weren't persuaded at 1M$/minion,
why would you be now? ha, anyways
There will always be a penalty, and with the recent drop in CB$ value.. Maybe trading experience for money isn't too bad.. although my gut tells me it's a terrible idea.

Flamey August 3 2008 8:37 AM EDT

Retraining used to be much more harsh, don't complain.

QBOddBird August 3 2008 10:49 AM EDT

"getting" stale?

Mem August 3 2008 12:26 PM EDT

Well met, OB. This thread is saying little more than what has been the case since April '05.

QBsutekh137 August 3 2008 7:49 PM EDT

I have to go with Mem on this, and I'll throw in a common sutekhy-nougat nutty goodness portion -- I feel clans have a lot to do with it. When clans can become a whole loaf of stale bread at the top (or near), that sets a standard. Not a good one.

I have to go work on a broken Mac. I say that as if there is such a time as this particular Mac NOT being broken.

I am a Mac fan. But damn.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 4 2008 12:28 AM EDT

let's put it this way. 10 retrains means 34% of XP and MPR lost (assuming 4% loss each time).
You can't stay competitive after losing 34% of XP, even LA or Popsicle man can't.

The more I think about it, the more free retrain make sense. A point raised a lot earlier puts that you don't want to encourage people staying on 24/7 and adjusting to who beats them. However, there is a limit to adjusting. you need all sort of new equipment per build and your build can only go so far. Someone bigger will always eat you alive.

Windwalker August 4 2008 12:38 AM EDT

I got nothin', just wanted to Hail Mem ;)

QBOddBird August 4 2008 1:05 AM EDT

PK - if you mean permanent free retrains...that idea is, simply put, retarded. The best players then become those who

1) notice they are farmed and promptly change strat to counter
2) are on enough to notice when they are farmed

Imagine having a fightlist that couldn't stand for even an HOUR. Occasional free retrains are hell enough already, permanent free retrains and I'm out of here and I suspect 3/4 of the CB population would be as well.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 4 2008 1:09 AM EDT

What in samhain are you suggesting? 6/20 is fine if you're not an ADD riddled child, the long term game is unlike anything you'll get anywhere else...

Retraining should be painful, we've been given cheaper retrains, and allowed to cheat even that with the free retrain...

PK - You just got to 6/20, I don't see how you can already be claiming it's stale...

QBOddBird August 4 2008 1:58 AM EDT


I'm an ADD riddled child, novice?

QBJohnnywas August 4 2008 2:18 AM EDT

I'd read this thread but I can't concentrate for that long.

Cube August 4 2008 2:30 AM EDT

Sell it and run an NCB?

Wizard'sFirstRule August 4 2008 4:45 AM EDT

wow, ad hominum arguments. calling people retarded or ADD riddled child does not advance your argument. I have kept my fightlist since before my NCB ended, + or - a few that should not have been added (win rate seems great at start until the average comes to get me). How is it not stale? I have no problem with logging on twice every day and spend a little time looking for target/changes.
Being on noticed regularly means that you are on CB more, probably participating more in forum/chat, how is it not a good idea?

Flamey August 4 2008 6:27 AM EDT

I'm going to say someone already answered "How isn't a good idea?"

Lookie here, you must've only read the part where he thought your idea was retarded, but the next sentence shows,

"The best players then become those who

1) notice they are farmed and promptly change strat to counter
2) are on enough to notice when they are farmed "

Wizard'sFirstRule August 4 2008 6:42 AM EDT

"The best players then become those who

1) notice they are farmed and promptly change strat to counter
2) are on enough to notice when they are farmed "

sorry, but I didn't see the problem with that. It rewards active playing as oppose to everyone move forward at relatively same pace, as well as a diminishing returns on your time. logging on every say 3 hours would be almost as good as on 24/7. Furthermore, if people changing strat is a problem, then gear itself is a constraint. You can't have a AC wall without gear, and evasion minion without Elven gear would probably fail. There will still be constraints, just make it easier to make a "planned" change.

TheHatchetman August 4 2008 6:46 AM EDT

Considering how many teams are 50% or more into their enchantments... it can make a big difference...

Flamey August 4 2008 6:47 AM EDT

Mages! Enchanters! Your strat can be completely different if you're a Mage team, gears are not necessary. Your strat can still change lots if you're a tank team, all the Enchantments can be switched around. PL batteries can be used.

QBRanger August 4 2008 9:27 AM EDT


I disagree 100%.

Tanks are "locked" into the weapon they have unlike mages who can change to the spell of the day.

During the last free retrain, I could do nothing but either change to a mage, or stay as a MH using tank. And you saw what I did with Koy.

The top has been very stale for a while. Every so ofter some NUB/NCB comes up and rattles the cage a bit. However, after a month or 2, things get back to week old bread status.

But,... If you want a free retrain every so ofter, this makes the game even more Mageblender then it is now. Which is extremely so.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 4 2008 10:36 AM EDT

You've already forgotten we decided that together OB?

I'm sorry for being dismissive PK, but the repeat of this refrain is far more stale than 6/20. Maybe I'm not the one to judge if it's stale or not. Where I am now I've got some serious challenges to face, and difficult choices to make. I find that the only restriction I really have is on the time it takes to discover a new possibility.

QBRanger August 4 2008 12:33 PM EDT

Coming soon to a theater near you:

Zen and the Art of Being Novice.

However, it is likely the best attitude to take. If I had it, I would still be playing.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 4 2008 5:44 PM EDT

let me leave a question behind:
how many in the top 50 has changed strats in the past year, excluding free retrain period. There has to be at least 20% XP change to count, moving some base skill/EO/ED to another does not.

QBJohnnywas August 4 2008 5:49 PM EDT

lol, some people change their strats quite regularly, free retrain or not, I've changed mine twice since I bought the char. Didn't take that much of a hit from it, enough to recoup since I did it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 4 2008 6:01 PM EDT

I shifted Conundrum around dramatically prior to the free retrain.
FTW retrained at least once since his NUB ended
Sut switched Hubbell's main direct damage spell at least once

That doesn't count the new additions to the top 20

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 4 2008 6:06 PM EDT

i think that i have changed mine 4 times not counting the free retrain, possibly five though.

i will never reach 3m mpr i have decided! hehe.

ScY August 4 2008 7:37 PM EDT


Little Anthony August 4 2008 7:51 PM EDT

I retrained like 4-5 times after NUB ended. But ROE made the loss disappeared in very short time.

QBsutekh137 August 4 2008 8:42 PM EDT

I will admit, I only trained my mage's main DD during free retrains (this latest one and the one before...I am very patient. *smile*)

As far as tattoo reinks, though, I have probably done about 8 of those in the past 9 months, only a few of which were during the free re-ink. So, I have spent several million on that. For a guy who doesn't use USD (any more, anyway), that's a decent amount of scratch...

...but I think that amount of scratch pales in comparison to a tank having to change an entire weapon. Yes, I am siding with Ranger on that one. We may not agree on the devilish details, but I am seeing his point. The only reason it never occurred to me before (because I would have whined about it, of course) is because I don't run tanks.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 4 2008 10:12 PM EDT

/me quietly concedes arugment.

Mem August 5 2008 12:56 PM EDT

I think that what everyone is avoiding is the fact that no one (except the person at the top...) plays this game to be the top. And if you do, you'll quickly learn that it's not possible. This game is only fun when you're simply trying to top the person that's just ahead of you. Even then it's not all that fun. It's the people that you can meet that keep you coming back. Or at least that's how it is for me. So, in addition to my previous comment, who cares?
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