Still no change to evasion! (in General)


superior me August 5 2008 7:56 PM EDT

last month there were multiple threads on evasion being over powered and apart from a few we had a general concensus that it is, im running a single minion tank with a 45m NW ELB my gear is pretty much as high as you could expect from a non USD spender and mu ToA is a little over MTL yet i still cannot hit on evasion my archery is at 1.00 and my dex is over 1m i feel im fighting an up hill battle here with the amount of SMFB running evasion combined with the recent evasion meatshield trend alot of larger teams are running its nearly impossible to make a fightlist even more so a clan fightlist as these people are most active and have figured out add evasion to a minion and tanks are useless against you

i dont mind losing to someone who i feel is worthy of beating me but when i lose to someone simply because they have 400k-500k evasion trained it seems wrong after i get a 45m nw wep train archery to 1.00 aswell as use a large ToA and have nealry 1.1M dex and im being completely nuetralized by a measly 500k evasion if there evasion was 1m+ i would be more than happy losing to them but the fact is they can do it with relatively low evasion

i have no idea on how evasion can be nerfed without making it useless because i have little knowledge of the game mechanics but something needs to be done because this game is going down hill..... looking at the sliding price of CB$ since i started a month ago its gone from $4 to someone selling at $2.5

MissingNo August 5 2008 7:58 PM EDT

And you think evasion that CBD is losing its worth?

VivaPinata August 5 2008 8:41 PM EDT

It's not a changemonth yet!

Lord Bob August 5 2008 8:52 PM EDT

I agree with the first poster. If things don't get fixed by next change month I may be joining Ranger in the CB quitters club. At this point I'm playing out of pure stubbornness.

QBsutekh137 August 5 2008 8:58 PM EDT

You could just switch to a mage and wait it out, LB, no? *smile*

Lord Bob August 5 2008 9:14 PM EDT

Ugh, no. I'm allergic to major retrains and NCBs.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 5 2008 9:23 PM EDT

a consensus in the forums means little when it comes to game direction. since you are new, i will share some of my past experience with you. i have been playing cb since march of 2003 and in that time i can honestly say that i do not think jon has ever changed the game based on the buzz in the forums. in my opinion, that is as it should be. a game designer needs to have his vision and trust in it. he does need to listen to the fan base, but data collection and number crunching are probably more important.

i have played games where the designers listened to the loudest forum posters and based game decisions on that. in all cases, those are the games that have died and they truly suffered before the final breath.

the reason cb prices have fallen are many, mostly based on other game balancing decisions such as encumbrance as well as the "special items" store that was introduced.

all in all, it comes down to whether you trust jon's vision or not, as well as how patient are you? if you haven't been here long, the changemonth comment might mean little to you as well. every third month is changemonth, give or take a month here or there, and that is when most balance concerns are addressed as well as major game changes. in the interim, we can mostly just count on major bug fixes. with jon taking on a partner, this might change but i have not seen any announcement addressing this.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 5 2008 9:47 PM EDT

45m NW ELB, assuming it is roughly even split between + and x, gives you +120 on the weapon. that combined with your 1.1m DX should give you a 1 hit a round on someone with effect 80 evasion (that is just over 500k evasion). Would you be losing simply because they have a bigger MPR and therefore the fireball doing more damage than your ELB? or their AC + TOE preventing a lot of the damage? or do you just can't land a hit at all?

someone having evasion and beating you does not necessarily mean it is the problem. evasion is essentially a tank hate, similar to how AMF is a mage hate, it would be unfair to blame evasion as THE CAUSE of you losing fights without looking at the other factors.

Mikel August 5 2008 9:47 PM EDT

I felt your pain for quite a long time superior me.

And I have 3-4 times invested in my ToA Archer gear.

That's why I am no long running an Archer. Can't keep up with Evasion via WA.

iBananco [Blue Army] August 5 2008 9:55 PM EDT

You seem to be forgetting about 100%+ boosts from items.

iBananco [Blue Army] August 5 2008 9:55 PM EDT

Also, ranged bonuses.

INDColtsFan18 August 5 2008 10:05 PM EDT

I think you need a lot more HP. most teams your level can dish out 500k damage in 2 or so rounds.

Warbringer August 5 2008 10:07 PM EDT

You could try adding a Mage Shield instead of a BoM.

Ancient Anubis August 5 2008 10:16 PM EDT

yep even my massive tank stats and pth can't overcome some of the top evasions in the game. By the way amf doesn't nullify a mage completely the amounts of exp to do so is huge, 100x times the size of the casters dd level evasion though does not need to be 100% bigger than pth.

And now with people having huge dbs like mikel :) people can't continue to go about the fact tanks have massive usd investment in weapons and mages need evasion to keep up because mikel has proven a mage can do the same thing. At least that's fairer he had to outspend in order to use one item to nullify a weapons.

I personally reckon we need to chanage the way weapons are done. First remove all useless weapons with no secondary abilities from the game. Second change it so size of damage be based on st of minion like dd damage is based on dd level. Remove the need to up weapons massively by making the only upgrade possible being the + for the secondary ability of weapon making say +10 at 20mil nw giving 100% of current ability like the life leeech of the mh

ec and amf become the two major dmage reduces with ec effect needing to be reduced in line with the amf effect, its currently way stronger.

Dx determines whether a tank gets a second or third hit with dx needing to be either 2x higher than opponents dx to get 2 hits and 100 times to get a third hit.

eavsion should be removed and replaced with Life Essence. If your life essence is 2 times an opponents hp then a mages dd spell will cast twice and if 100x will cast 3 times.

dbs can removed and i say introduce staff and magic tombs to allow mages secondary effects like the weapons for tanks.

what u reckon any comments any ideas welcome no abuse though :)

oh and archery can be removed and replaced with weapon mastery, trained at 1/20 of total minion hp it allows the minion to use two weapons - both a ranged and a melee. Without it u can only equip one weapon from either type ranged or melee

QBRanger August 6 2008 12:12 AM EDT

A lot of tanks waited for the small changes that others have typed about for months now.

Nothing changed, not even small changes.

With all the empirical evidence that evasion is vastly overpowered for the xp expense, I see no reason that a change to it should not have occurred months ago.

And adding salt to the wound was the free retrain that benefited mages far more then tanks.

And the cherry on top was the new instakill spell, making melee tanks basically useless.

The best suggestion that most tanks had was to start with not allowing the AoF superboost evasion. But even that small change was not embraced by Jon.

This is why I quit. Even though he does not "listen" to the players, the data is out there. About evasion for months now, and for the SG spell since the day it came out.

Short of holding a megaphone up to Jon's head, I have no idea what more I could have done to try to balance CB.

Perhaps Jon was waiting for me to leave, so my uber MH would not be in play anymore, as is Mikel's ELB and Freeds SoD (when not loaned out).

Well people who wanted USD out of the game got their wish. ENC, WA and evasion have basically made this game very bland.

It is why I got out when I did. I saw the writing on the wall. I see the price of CB going way down as more and more people sell out. Superior is right on that account.

Yes, the pendulum may indeed change and tanks may again have a chance. However, the old axium "Too little too late" comes to mind. Sometimes immediate action is needed and waiting for the "small" changes is not the right course of action.

I hope enough people are left when things return to a balanced state. Most agree that tanks are much more fun to run then mages. And now, who really, except for stubborn people like LB, want to run one? With all the hoops one has to go through to be successful after the beginning stages.

Does anyone really think that the people who come via facebook will want to play a mage? C'mon now. Tanks are fun, mages are boring. But tanks are dead in the water.

Just look at what tanks have to deal with compared to mages:

ENC, WA, evasion, melee or missile weapon, making enough CB to upgrade weapons. Too many obstacles to conquer without a constitution of steel.

I just did not have it in me anymore. I hope others do.

QBRanger August 6 2008 12:18 AM EDT

And please do not believe this is sour apples from me.

I really liked this game and believed it was one of the best I have ever played. Jon created something really special.

Something that kept me motivated to burn BA each day for over 4 years.

However, for me the fun just was not there. For the reasons above. I hope things do turn around and the game regains its luster. I really do. I would hate to see more people leave due to frustration about something that can easily be fixed and should have been for months.

Cube August 6 2008 12:27 AM EDT

I'd love to play a tank again, but it's true they simply aren't viable. Today I tried switching to UC for a try (okay I didn't have a CGI or an EC on because the tattoo slot was taken), but SG was far better damage and far more reliable, and you still hardly have to worry about Amf, and it works with the HoC.

The only tanks that seem worth having around are mini-tanks, and Mageseeker familiar killers.

Oh and if anyone says that superior me simply isn't training enough dex, how much should he train? His arrows already bounce off my wall like nothing =)

lostling August 6 2008 12:36 AM EDT

:) i would LOVE for more people to turn mage :)

Goodfish August 6 2008 12:47 AM EDT

I've been sick of Mage Blender since Force Bolt became Fireball.

Windwalker August 6 2008 1:47 AM EDT

I just LOVE evasion. I'm wondering if I will even be able to hit with +300 ranged bonus! At 252 now and Ziiip ;(

Ancient Anubis August 6 2008 1:53 AM EDT

windwalker my pth is 297 + 22 from leadership and i still have trouble hitting some of those out there :P

superior me August 6 2008 5:11 AM EDT

pain killer my ELB is +106 and x3225 i hit 600-700k providing they are average AC and not using a ToA many mages my level can hit 400k tops but my problem isnt what i hit its im not hitting if all my shots hit i could hit 2.1m a round but the fact is even with a huge bow huge ToA reasonable dex which when i went from 650k-1.1m i didnt notice any difference ( i now understand why people run high str low dex tanks because if they have evasion no matter what your dex is you wont hit so when you do mite as well make it massive) i still cannot hit on 500k evasion possibly less and yes i know my hp is low but my MPR is half that of most my score i reley on PR :)

dud the special items and ENC may influence the reducing cost of CB$ however i feel the majority of people losing interest in the game and selling out which reley on supply and demand and because of the massive supply the cost is reduced :)

Anubis i think your weapon reform idea is great making damage based on strength and the "X" on weapons could be converted to a 70% refund or 100% of NW lost put into "+"

but if anyone can honestly say evasion is fine as it is..... is crazy!!!

the problem with evasion and the rest of cb is that its based on the top players (USD spenders) and whilst i dont spend USD myself i have no problem with others doing so (infact i feel they deserve the upper hand) if they can pump USD into weps giving them crazy + like rangers super MH to allow them to hit on evasion what about up with low weapons what are we to do... i think if jon shouldnt punish USD spenders, because hes the one that allowed it in the first place

i would love for jon to post on my thread his thoughts on evasion and his future plans as im new, i dont know so i dont have faith in his "vision" as of yet but i would like to see a glimpse of it in order to keep me from converting to dare i say it.... a mage :(

superior me August 6 2008 5:20 AM EDT

oh and painkiller you were saying evasion is a tank hate simular to AMF being a mage hate lol...... so what is EC? .... everyones best mate?

im sure EC is a tank hater AMF is a mage hater and evasion is a swift kick in the balls to every tank in cb

and if i could hit i wouldnt lose to therefore im blaming evasion simple enough in my eyes

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 6 2008 5:38 AM EDT

You're also forgetting one thing:

There is no balance between Evasion and non evasion minions.

Its very logical to me that you're not able to hit someone that has invested 1/4, or more, of his/her mpr into evasion. So you're not able to hit anyone for that matter. But if there is no evasion whatsoever in the picture that includes DB's, against low dex targets you quad hit almost all the time, double hits and triple hit are very common too.

Quad hit all the time with 500k damage is more then enough to kill of a team within 5 rounds of ranged combat.

There is no balance between non hitting and quad hitting. Even the HAL manages to, when properly junctioned, quad hit against low lvl dex targets. Even when you have say 75 evasion, it still quad hits!

So I find this more disturbing then you're not able to hit someone with well over 150 evasion with your 45mil elb, quite frankly your elb is rather small for your lvl too.

And yes I have to agree Shocking Grasp is just a tad overpowered. 0.40 AMF casted on mage having SG resulting in only 300k backlash but the minion still fires of a cool 1 mil damage per round against non armored, non ToE targets.

superior me August 6 2008 7:14 AM EDT

pizzaman do you have any idea what an idiot you just made of yourself

for one its impossible to quad hit max hits is 3 and 3 hits are 50% chance on someone with no evasion no dbs no dex so its not like their overly common either

and if that wasnt enough you said my bow is small, its the 13th biggest ELB in the game on a 650k MPR character ( not even in the top 250 players of CB ) that doesnt use USD i dont mean to be patronizing but are you slow?

and even more so you said someone who train 1/4 of their total exp in evasion i shouldnt be able to hit on them because thats how it should be. lol that is one of the stupidist things ive heard yet on cb. so your saying if i train AMF to 1/4 of my total exp (lvl 500,000)a mage shouldnt be able to hit me for any damage

hahahahahahaha <---- that is all of CB laughing at you btw :)

superior me August 6 2008 7:17 AM EDT

also there is a balance between non evasion mages and evasion mages the balance is that evasion minions own tanks and non evasion minions beat evasion mages because they can put the evasion exp into higher hp or DD

but in some ways your right their is no balance between evasion and non evasion minions the inbalance is in the fact that evasion is overpowered

QBJohnnywas August 6 2008 7:19 AM EDT

Hate to tell you this, but it's perfectly possible to hit quads or even quints (five hits).

superior me August 6 2008 7:27 AM EDT

how on the PTH guide in wiki it said 3 is the max.... and ive never hit more than 3 hits either

Conquest August 6 2008 7:27 AM EDT

I also hate to tell you that having the '13th largest ELB' is pretty meaningless when so few people are running tanks. Moreso it sure does not entitle you to act like a prick. Particularly when you are wrong on so many levels. I suggest that you put a little more thought into your next post.

VivaPinata August 6 2008 7:40 AM EDT

Maybe I'm fighting the wrong opponents, but I second Pizza's notion. In a recent battle, a Hal familiar alone vaporized my character in two rounds, dealing nearly three times my MM's damage.

QBRanger August 6 2008 8:59 AM EDT

Ever hear of DBs?

The forgotten item.

Perhaps one has to spend some CB in order to avoid tanks.

Now DB's alone do not do it. However, they can cut hits by 1-2. Which may be enough to live.

Also, one can use a TOE to defend vs HALs. Or one can use FB or MM or a HAL oneself. Or even EC.

There are quite a few ways around the HAL, for a tank, there are none for evasion.

Not as long as tanks have NO chance in the dexterity battle, given the stupidity of the AOF boosting evasion.

QBRanger August 6 2008 9:01 AM EDT

But then again, this point has been brought up at least 25 times in the past 6 months with NO change to evasion except for a small missile round tweak.

Jon obviously knows our opinion on it.

No real need to discuss it anymore.

CB is just like the mafia. You try to get out and it drags you back in.

superior me August 6 2008 9:32 AM EDT

im sorry if ive offending anyone or come across as arogant but im just very opinionated.... and a large HF is only good if its supported by a team designed to compliment it simular to EF im not sure who you were versing but if they were a large team using a large HF then losing would be expected when your using MM, however i also feel MM is underpowered since the introduction of EF/SG but again just my opinion (which no one seems to agree with) but i feel the range bonus to evasion should be taken away now due to the intro of WA and ENC, or nerf the AoF bonus to skills

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 6 2008 9:47 AM EDT

"for one its impossible to quad hit max hits is 3 and 3 hits are 50% chance on someone with no evasion no dbs no dex so its not like their overly common either"

"hahahahahahaha <---- that is all of CB laughing at you btw :) "

Yeah I take no insult from this whatsoever, because I know who wrote is is an utter and complete noob on the subject so I really don't care.

Back on subject DB's are all fine and dandy but you need deep pockets before they start working. +100 DB's are considered small and even when you equip these you still get double and triple hits

Cube August 6 2008 10:54 AM EDT

With high end weapons quad/quint hits are possible, but not really at your level.

The price of CB is not really an indication of anything it has been dropping ever since I joined because CB's economy is inflationary.

I take back my original statement by the way, you have a below average dex and below average pth; however, this is understandable, because without the strength you couldn't wield that bow.

The evasion debate has been going on for a long long time, not just in the month you've been here, and I think there are problems with it. The biggest problem I see is that even if you run a dex heavy/pth heavy tank, you can't hit. ENC is a huge problem because if you are heavy in dex you don't get enough ENC to boost your pth, which just doesn't make sense. Someone recommended a while ago that Dex or Strength give ENC, whichever is higher, and I think that's brilliant.

I think evasion should be a counter, but it seems far too effective at completely shutting out tanks. So I think making it something along the lines making it act as 75% of the current level in defensive dex and that effect is in order.

QBRanger August 6 2008 11:22 AM EDT

Or at least start by removing the AoF's super boost to evasion.

But even that change seems to be met with resistance from people.

QBOddBird August 6 2008 11:26 AM EDT

No, I think we can all agree on that at the minimum. I would love to see the AoF's super boost to Evasion gone.


It's just a matter of waiting on Jon - I'm pretty sure he's not making the change because he doesn't want to overdo it. Which makes sense, but tanks already have the ENC and WA restrictions....if Evasion becomes underpowered, those restrictions should keep tanks from having too much of an edge.

Dark Dreky August 6 2008 11:53 AM EDT

I'd have to agree that the AoF boost to evasion is overpowered, and this is coming from an RoBF/Evasion user.

So how do you fix it? Make the AoF not boost evasion specifically, or tone down the AoF all together? The latter would make those folks who paid 10m in the last few months for and AoF pretty angry, but what can you do? The former would be alright with me, just reduce the % boost per +

As it stands now, it is very easy to concentrate XP into evasion on a variety of strats and even easier to boost it with a plethora of items. Also, the abundance of mage teams surfacing should make it obvious that tanks need some love...

I dunno how much love they need, I'll leave that to more interested minds.

Colonel Custard August 6 2008 12:16 PM EDT

I don't think there is actually any upper limit to the number of hits a person can theoretically land in one round. During free retrain, I managed 7 when I redistributed all my XP into UC, then threw on an EC for DX advantage. This got me about 630 effective cth against the opponent I tested against.

Evasion is OP. I don't think I need to elaborate on that at all. I can land inconsistent hits on most people in the game, but only in melee, and only because UC is great and I have 40% of 3mil MPR invested in it. My melee PTH is better than Ranger's MH ever was and can ever be, unless lostling and NS want to collaborate on that project. My SoD is the 3rd or 4th biggest in the game, and I do not hit any evasion minions in ranged. If I could get my SoD up to around +300 (where my melee pth is about now), I would probably still miss, due to ranged bonuses, and it would be at least 270mil NW. Not to mention that Slings' PTH isn't multiplied by .9 before being applied. I can't imagine what it would take for a MageSeeker user to hit a minion with a (50) Evasion in the first round of ranged...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 6 2008 12:46 PM EDT

i think that the best course of action would be to first remove the boost from the aof on defensive dex only. then if that is not enough, go with the same for the eb's and then if still not enough eg's. at that point if we still don't see more of the balance that jon deems appropriate, we can look at reducing the amount boosted by those items to the skills themselves.

i like the small steps approach best.

QBRanger August 6 2008 1:18 PM EDT

Any steps approach would be beneficial.

As opposed to the ZERO steps approach, at least in melee, that has occurred for the last 6+ months.

And am I reading this right? Dudemus is suggesting removing the AoF entirely from the evasion equation?

I seem to remember Mr. Small Steps advocating lowering its super duper boost from 3% to 2% and let us take a few months to see how that works. Well finally is the thinking that something a bit more radical needs to be done?

I hope so, too bad this did not occur while I was still playing.

QBOddBird August 6 2008 1:26 PM EDT

So you are sticking around for forums for good then, Ranger? I was under the impression that by "quitting", you meant altogether. Glad to see you are planning on staying with CB. :)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 6 2008 1:44 PM EDT

i said remove the defensive dex boost only. that does seem to be where the consensus says that the root of the problem lies mr. taking my toys and going home! : )

QBRanger August 6 2008 4:09 PM EDT

Yes, I will be in the forums from time to time. Over time I expect to be fully gone. I would just like to see the game that I have loved for so long finally get to the point where it should have been 6+ months ago.

However I sold my toys, I have none to take home. Actually feels good not having to burn BA.

And the AoFs boost to the level of evasion may or may be a problem, that will have to be seen if the obvious changes that should have been made long ago finally are.

QBRanger August 6 2008 4:10 PM EDT

But let me ask this:

Is it more painful to slowly pull off a Band-Aid or quickly rip it off?

Sometimes the fast way is better then the slow baby step method.

Million ways to skin a cat.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 6 2008 5:01 PM EDT

not on cb, there's pretty much only one way...jon's way. unless you consider banging your head against a brick wall fun, then the only option is to wait and see.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 6 2008 6:59 PM EDT

"As opposed to the ZERO steps approach"

BoF, GoM, CoM were all steps. You choose not to ustilise some/all of them as you'd attached yourself to an oversized weapon you didn't want to get rid of.

QBRanger August 6 2008 7:40 PM EDT

Certainly GL,

I should get rid of a 240M NW MH to upgrade a new weapon and lose all that NW.

Please think in reality, not fantasy.

MissingNo August 6 2008 7:43 PM EDT

Guys, there's really no need to have 3 separate active threads on evasion going on at the same time. Let's pick one and all post on there. I am really interested in what everyone is writing, it's just kinda a pain in the butt to have to be looking through 3 different topics.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 6 2008 7:51 PM EDT

"Certainly GL,

I should get rid of a 240M NW MH to upgrade a new weapon and lose all that NW.

Please think in reality, not fantasy."

LoL!

The game isn't catered to you. Jon gave an option to face high Evasion. 1H Bladed weapons. It just happened to be an option you didn't want to take part in. Due to the attachment to your uber sized weapon.

But Jon *gave* the option.

To say nothing's been done aobut Evasion is rediculous.

If you want to change the arguement to be that Jon didn't implement a way to beat evasion without you needing to change anything, then sure...
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