I propose something. (in General)

QBRanger August 7 2008 3:36 PM EDT

What if every evasion minion in the game took off their AoF for a day.

Just to see what would happen vs all the tanks out there.

And finally put this AoF/evasion thread to rest.

Prove that the AoF is overpowered or it is not.

QBOddBird August 7 2008 3:37 PM EDT

I accept your proposal, and counter-propose a marriage date of November 13th, 2009.

Warbringer August 7 2008 3:42 PM EDT

I doubt it would work, but it would be nice if it happened.

Yukk August 7 2008 3:43 PM EDT

Yeah, that's not going to happen. That also means a loss of 40% DD on their familiars too.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 7 2008 3:46 PM EDT

i went without one for several weeks before the special item store came into being after i tried mage again.

what happened? the top ten percent of people that were not able to hit me before were able to hit me more regularly and were possibly very happy (not entirely sure as happy people post less). the other 90 percent still couldn't hit me and were still upset about it.

let me know when you want me to take it off and i will be happy to do so. i would ask that you unretire your character and do this properly though. if you can make proposals requesting our cooperation i would think you could get back to the non-forum type of fighting. ; )

INDColtsFan18 August 7 2008 3:52 PM EDT

I don't use and AoF and I dodge about 25% of all attacks with my small evasion. Balanced from my eyes on my character. But, outside of my experiances it seems unbalanced, but nerfing an item is not a good way to do it. It will hurt all skills not just evasion.

QBsutekh137 August 7 2008 3:53 PM EDT

I would, except I don't use an AoF either...

I got some big boots, though! *smile*

(and no, I'm not taking anything off...)

QBJohnnywas August 7 2008 3:55 PM EDT

Strangely amongst the top 50 AoFs less than half are being used to boost evasion, only two of the top 10.

Mostly they are being used to boost junction or PL.

I was quite surprised to see that considering how much of a problem evasion/AoF is supposed to be.

Charlie August 7 2008 3:57 PM EDT

Good for you, PM, for keeping at it! One day can't hurt, surely? Don't give a choice, just program it...

QBsutekh137 August 7 2008 3:58 PM EDT

And also to boost the DD on a familiar (in the Junction case).

Yes, they are quite popular for boosting PL, a pox upon this game (see King of Pain). PL is disgusting, especially when used with a TSA. Three 20-HP minions and I can't get a single one killed? That's broke.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 7 2008 3:58 PM EDT

meh I can still beat my whole fight list without using my AoF.

Lord Bob August 7 2008 4:02 PM EDT

"What if every evasion minion in the game took off their AoF for a day."

And for those of us that use the AoF for other things?

This is a good plan for Evasion minions only, but good luck trying to get everyone to do it.

QBOddBird August 7 2008 4:04 PM EDT

"QBFriskyDingo 3:53 PM EDT I would, except I don't use an AoF either...

I got some big boots, though! *smile*

(and no, I'm not taking anything off...) "

Aww. No bow chicka wow wow?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 7 2008 4:10 PM EDT

"What if every evasion minion in the game took off their AoF for a day.

Just to see what would happen vs all the tanks out there.

And finally put this AoF/evasion thread to rest.

Prove that the AoF is overpowered or it is not. "

just for grins, i replaced evasion with melee, aof with weapon and tanks with mages. the results are below!

What if every melee minion in the game took off their weapon for a day.

Just to see what would happen vs all the mages out there.

And finally put this weapon/melee thread to rest.

Prove that the weapon is overpowered or it is not.

Lord Bob August 7 2008 4:14 PM EDT

Wow, that was just stupid.

QBsutekh137 August 7 2008 4:55 PM EDT

What was stupid? The OP, or dudemus's (clear) lampoon of it?

In my opinion, ANY post that has "prove" and "overpowered" in the same sentence is pretty silly. There is no "proof"... This is a dynamic game.

Additionally, if the OP _does_ wish to treat this issue as some sort of absolute, scientific research project, then we already have some data points: lots of Evasion folks don't even use an AoF on their team, and one who does already reports that their fight list doesn't change without the AoF in use.

So, what's stupid?

Last Gasp August 7 2008 5:00 PM EDT

I go from 221 down to 203 but don't lose a soul from my fight list. Now perhaps there will be someone who can now beat me who could not before... but I doubt it.

Last Gasp August 7 2008 5:03 PM EDT

Going nekkid I lose only two. (173 evasion)

QBsutekh137 August 7 2008 5:07 PM EDT

Man, my Evasion is a measly 157!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 7 2008 5:15 PM EDT

There are only 4 weapons in the entire game with more than 221 pth. Just so you know. Only another 2 weapons that come close. The rest of the weapons are at least 20 pth lower. The fact that you have that much evasion on a 4 minion team at just under 2.3 mil mpr might say something right?

Mikel August 7 2008 5:43 PM EDT

"(and no, I'm not taking anything off...)"

We like you better with your clothes on!

Zaekyr August 7 2008 5:45 PM EDT

After seeing all the debates on the issue of evasion and a lot of proposals mentioned.I have come to the following conclusions.

1.Mages are worried that if they allow tanks to hit them they will lose much more often due to tanks dealing more damage.I agree that is an issue.

2.Tanks being reduced to dealing 0 damage due to an evasion skill which gives an equal amount of dexterity which can easily be trained higher than a tank can train his dexterity isn't really fair in the overall picture.Especially since evasion will negate weapon PTH and the argument for training more in dexterity is also moot since a reduction in strength is a reduction in ENC effectivly reducing the amount of + on a weapon.You could also argue that we could take the x of weapons out of the equation so that damage dealing for a tank will be limited but I don't agree with that since it limits choice.

3.Some have argued that the AoF is a big problem but I don't see this as the case.I really don't think that adjusting the AoF will help because the elven gear can just be equiped and pumped up to achieve the same result anyway.Not to mention the fact that adjusting one piece of equipment or even more with all the elven gear and nuetering strategies as has been done before on a limited basis (mostly with weapons,VB anyone?) would make things worse overall.

4.Another proposal is evasion decay and I used to like that possibilty too.But after further consideration I really don't like it since it wouldn't take much effort to adjust evasion levels to buy time for the kill since the evasion curve heavily outweighs the AMF curve.

5.Lastly,there was an idea to have evasion be a damge reduction skill.I have come to like this idea best.I think the best way to implement this is to first reduce defensive dexterity granted by evasion to 50% of trained level(remember the idea is to give tanks a decent chance to hit).Next keep the negative PTH curve on evasion as it currently is.Then do a dexterity to evasion comparison or a trained dexterity to defensive dexterity comparison to determine a percentage(not really sure of the curve of difference needed).This percentage would be for damage reduction.---Perhaps the percentage of defensive dexterity of attackers trained dexterity would give a good reduction.---Or even better yet come up with an "effective" dexterity level and the number difference between evasion effective level and dexterity effective level would be the percentage of damage reduction.To make it truly fair always allow at least 10% of damage if a hit is made.This way tanks can get hits but mages can still compete by reducing tank damage.

I like this idea best because it allows tanks to hit,and deal damage in a similar fashion to how mages can deal damage.i.e. Look at the diffence a mage can do based on whether his target is using AMF or not.

To make it even more interesting.Evasion could also reduce magic damage by a very very small amount.Like for instance take the 2 digit evasion -PTH number and use that as a base so that an evasion level of 80 would turn into 8% damage reduction and 92 would be 9.2 ect.ect.

With these methods evasion and dexterity have their purposes and fit within the logic of their descriptions.Tanks could still be stopped entirely with negative PTH from evasion and for those that don't train it that much the damage reduction would allow them The ability to "compete".

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 7 2008 6:17 PM EDT

"Wow, that was just stupid."

for those who missed my point, not everything that affects the outcome of a single battle can be assumed to be overpowered (tats, weapons, skills, etc.).

King August 7 2008 6:24 PM EDT

The drawbacks I see to an AoF nerf
1)It would screw over most UC tanks, I mean they already take a huge hit vs ec from their aof now you want to reduce their damage before it gets reduced further?
2)familiars could really use the DD boost since they have really crappy HP
3)read 1 and 2

Just because one stat when abused to the size of a single mage's DD spell is overpowered with the addition of bonus gears doesn't merit the nerf of one gear used by multiple types of minions in my opinion.

Seeing evasion used like the old "Cause Fear" like zaekyr suggested would be interesting though.

Last Gasp August 7 2008 6:25 PM EDT

"There are only 4 weapons in the entire game with more than 221 pth. Just so you know. Only another 2 weapons that come close. The rest of the weapons are at least 20 pth lower. The fact that you have that much evasion on a 4 minion team at just under 2.3 mil mpr might say something right?"

Yes, it says that I get farmed by FB mages! :-)

Seriously though, I used a ROE during my NCB which is how I got that much evasion.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 7 2008 6:42 PM EDT

Evasion 7,960,799 4,280,000 245 191

with AoF

Evasion 6,291,600 4,280,000 223 191

Without my AoF ^_~

Cube August 7 2008 7:33 PM EDT

Who can get 8 mil dex? Anyone?

superior me August 7 2008 7:49 PM EDT

no one currently has 8m closest is soul collector who gets nearly 4m of his 6m dex from his ToA so if our opinions dont say enough on evasion being overpowered then the stats certainly do

Obscurans August 7 2008 8:37 PM EDT

Shouldn't it be "who can get 16M DX in ranged???" :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 7 2008 9:14 PM EDT

perhaps this is why we have the plus mod on weapons, and the new items? dex is only part of the equation.

lostling August 7 2008 9:52 PM EDT

zaekyr posting the same idea more then 10 times kinda makes people not want to read your post -.-

lostling August 7 2008 10:10 PM EDT

ok couple of ideas..

make evasion back into total -PTH and adjust the curve accordingly

remove all ranged bonuses from evasion (frankly it just doesnt need those)

let AOF add dex so tanks can use it too (and then complain when EC hits them hard)

Zaekyr August 7 2008 10:38 PM EDT

Judging by the posts I thought it had to be rephrased since there seems to be a lack of understanding.

Cube August 8 2008 2:39 AM EDT

Zaekyr: Please explain why it makes sense to make evasion damage reduction, why would I invest in AC then? How would DBs work? your idea is incomplete.

superior me: Way to ruin my rhetorical question.

Obscurans: Actually, 12 mil in ranged.

Zaekyr August 8 2008 3:04 AM EDT

Well, one way is this:

Say a tank with 1000 dexterity attacks a minon with 1000 evasion(with 500 Defensive dexterity).For example only take the 500 defensive dexterity and compare it to the attackers dexterity finding it is 50% of 1000.Then reduce the physical damage by 50%....1000 vs. 600 would be 60% reduction and so on.

That is one way.Here is another:

I would like to see it simpler and have a dexterity value similar to the evasion value such as 400k evasion having an effect of 74.We could have a Dexterity effective level so that perhaps 400k of dexterity would equal an effect of 50.Subtract 50 from 74 and we get 24% damage reduction on the attack.

It wouldn't be something that eliminates AC it is almost like layer damage reduction vs. a tank.It gives tanks that chance to hit but yet allows the mages to lower the damage.

Both of these ideas keep evasion useful and let tanks have the ability to fight.

Finding the right balance may not be easy but it is better than any thing else suggested since no one seems to think reducing defensive dexterity to 0 would be fair.With one of these systems at least a competetive equality may some day be reached.

Zaekyr August 8 2008 3:07 AM EDT

Oh and as I have said before,evasion effective minus to PTH would be unchanged .Which likewise would leave DB's unchanged.You could potentially have tanks miss you with dedicated investment in things to reduce enemy PTH but mages that are training 30-35% in evasion will most likely get hit but with much less damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 12:24 PM EDT

"Who can get 8 mil dex? Anyone?"

Any team of the same minion count, or less, training the same amount of XP into Dex, or more, using the same + Dex boosting items, or better.

Be thankful that Dex is on a 4 minion team. Imagine the size it could be on a single minion...

Lets not forget that as good as Dex is for the physical side of the game, it has no impact on the magical.

superior me August 8 2008 12:28 PM EDT

GL evasion is boosted during missile rounds so for archer they would need 12m dex to hit thats impossible and with AoF + 14 out there thats 42% bonus to evasion + EC, EB and EG there is no comparison between a tanks dex and evasion

evasion trumps all!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 8 2008 12:54 PM EDT

"perhaps this is why we have the plus mod on weapons, and the new items? dex is only part of the equation."

not to mention new items for adding pth to certain weapon types.

QBRanger August 8 2008 1:03 PM EDT

Evasion 7,960,799 4,280,000 245 191 w AoF
Evasion 6,291,600 4,280,000 223 191 w/o AoF

Even with the new items, one still has to get a weapon to +200 JUST to have a 1% chance to hit, assume all the items give you +45. And then you have a ONE PERCENT chance to hit.

I do not think most people are against evasion having a minus to PTH. But the fact it gives a stupid high defensive dexterity is the problem.

Remember the AoF, aside from boosting the def dex, also boosts its effective level.

Who can get +246 to even have a 1% chance to hit without using USD?

That should be the question.

The AoF on Draco's character gives 1.7M defensive dex AND minus 22 to hit.

No tank, even a solo one can get 8M dex. I mean, perhaps they can with 20 strength and 20 hp not using a skill.

They would have to use the EC, EB and EG of course, negating any possibility of using the TG or DBs.

And of course, tanks out there now do not use the weapons the new items were designed for. So again, should tanks have to lose 50% of the NW to redo their main focus.

Given mages already had their FREE chance. And NO, I will NOT get over that. It was so unfair to all the tanks out there, it has to ber restated again and again.

I mean anything is possible, but what is realistic?

Dark Dreky August 8 2008 1:16 PM EDT

Wasn't there free disenchanting for awhile? Or did I make that up?

[RX3]Cotillion August 8 2008 1:21 PM EDT

I think you made it up. When Disenchanting was first introduced, it was at a 65% rate I think. Then Jon nerfed it down to 50%.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 8 2008 1:26 PM EDT

How much dex do you need to get a single hit? I don't believe you have to match it... maybe I'm wrong. Getting to +246 is certainly a tall order, but it's certainly not impossible considering the options now available.

Someone has already pointed out that the reason weapons aren't as flexible as XP is the ability to move them between chars and accounts, I think that's a fair trade off personally. I think anything above 50% return on investment is open to abuse. Heck prior to this getting 50% of NW when selling a large weapon was a good deal for the seller.

Additionally I can't see why the defensive dex portion of evasion is seen as the problem. It's the minus to hit that really causes issues.
Start by not multiplying minus to hit separately in ranged, let it be set by the new boosted level. I do sympathize with dudemus's point concerning the idea of evasion decaying, however I think applying a penalty to the minus to hit, or eliminating the reduction in dex based chance to hit are the most logical solutions. They allow mages to chose to use dbs with evasion if they want to remain unhittable all the way through melee while not cutting the throat of evasion out of spite.

Lord Bob August 8 2008 1:26 PM EDT

"for those who missed my point, not everything that affects the outcome of a single battle can be assumed to be overpowered"

Tanks need weapons to even attempt an attack. And with recent changes, the idea that anyone could even maybe consider them even slightly overpowered just makes no sense. This bears no resemblance whatsoever to the Evasion problem, so I wrote what I did.

I could have wrote this and it would have been equally as useless:
"just for grins, i replaced melee with mage, weapon with spells and mages with tanks. the results are below!
What if every mage minion in the game took off their spells for a day.
Just to see what would happen vs all the tanks out there.
And finally put this spell/mage thread to rest.
Prove that the spell is overpowered or it is not."

This adds nothing to the argument because it's not the offense on either side that's causing the problems (except SG, which is awful). It's the nerfing of one attack to absolute zero.

And we're not talking about a single battle here, as obviously a single battle wouldn't generate this much controversy in the first place. So my opinion stands.

Lord Bob August 8 2008 1:28 PM EDT

"How much dex do you need to get a single hit? I don't believe you have to match it..."

If I'm not mistaken, two minions at equal dexterity will hit each other 50% of the time.

QBRanger August 8 2008 1:43 PM EDT

"Getting to +246 is certainly a tall order,"

It is impossible without USD. And if you did, you would have a ZERO chance to hit if your dexterity is not high enough to get dex chances.

But is ENC not in the game to stop USD weapons/items?

I thought it was, and therefor evasion did not need to be as powerful.

For 6 months, I guess I was wrong.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 8 2008 1:53 PM EDT

"This adds nothing to the argument because it's not the offense on either side that's causing the problems (except SG, which is awful). It's the nerfing of one attack to absolute zero.

And we're not talking about a single battle here, as obviously a single battle wouldn't generate this much controversy in the first place. So my opinion stands."

it was basically an attempt, somewhat a failure it seems, at adding a little humor to the discussion. as we see often on the forums, one persons idea of "funny" is often another's definition of stupidity.

but now that you bring up the "apples to apples" comparison of defense boosting items being the only proper analogy...let us replace aof with mage shield then? so take em off, if mages win then the mage shield is indeed overpowered. this idea of if an item affects a battle, or battles between two differenct character classes, then it must be overpowered is what i thought very worthy of humor. ; )

Lord Bob August 8 2008 1:53 PM EDT

Yeah, I thought Evasion was as high as it was for the ridiculous purpose of stopping USD pumped weapons. With Encumbrance taking over that role, I think we're long overdue for an Evasion nerf.

QBJohnnywas August 8 2008 2:19 PM EDT

ENC didn't stop those people with overboosted weapons using them though did it? Those big weapons still exist. And because evasion is as strong there are people still boosting big weapons.

Big weapons need big evasions unless you want the big weapons to just stay set on auto-win. Or unless you want to add a max weapon level to limit their size.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wouldn't like to be the one to sort out that mess....

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 8 2008 2:29 PM EDT

evasion & pth are two sides of the same coin, boosting one or nerfing the other has the same effect.

is it telling that jon has chosen to boost the weapon classes that were less used...in effect, not the big weapons jw speaks of? i patiently await the next changemonth to find out.

Lord Bob August 8 2008 2:33 PM EDT

"ENC didn't stop those people with overboosted weapons using them though did it?"

Um, yes it did. It stopped me at least. It took me months to build up enough HP, strength, and MPR to properly re-equip myself after Encumbrance and the WA nerf were inflicted on us.

QBJohnnywas August 8 2008 2:37 PM EDT

Maybe it halted you using your weapons, but are you using them now?

Lord Bob August 8 2008 2:43 PM EDT

I am able to equip them now after lots and lots of leveling, BA purchase, and dexterity neglect, yes. I'm just barely riding my WA limit. In fact, I think I'm slightly over it right now. I still do less damage than mages around my level, and I have to deal with not hitting. I survive only because of layers of damage reduction and two AMFs. Right now, tanks are underpowered in every way.

QBJohnnywas August 8 2008 2:54 PM EDT

Let me put this to you then, if evasion was done away with in it's current form, how well would you fare? Would we then see a return to the old 'hard done by mage' postings?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 8 2008 2:56 PM EDT

I've seen countless of examples of tank teams using shocking grasp to kill of those pesky evasion minions, why can't other tank teams do that?
Have 2 damage dealers?

One to kill of evasion and walls and one to kill of the "soft" targets like mages, enchanters and other tanks?

Lord Bob August 8 2008 2:58 PM EDT

I'd do better. I'm sure many mage players would complain, as some of them seem to like the current imbalance in their favor. I don't think they would be in a worse position than tanks though.

Cube August 8 2008 3:25 PM EDT

Math time!!

Giving you the benefit of the doubt with the equipment

Evasion 7,960,799 4,280,000 245 191 w AoF
Evasion 6,291,600 4,280,000 223 191 w/o AoF

+50 TSA
+10 AoM
+12 EC
+12 EGs
+30 EBs
+20 HoE
+30 BoM

That's +120% to Strength and +54% to Dex

+30 BoFs on a Leader (No AoL so you can AoI the leader)
+230 Weapon

So you need 8 mil/1.5 dex or 5.33 mil Dex trained

And then enough ENC to lift your +230 weapon so thats how much strength?
+230 is almost +225 which is Edyits MH which has 195 435 214 - (10 895 * 7 820) = 110 236 314 in the pth

If ENC is linear, which I think it is? Someone might correct me, but anyway. You get about 30 times your Strength in ENC? So It takes 3.66 mil Strength 3.66 / 2.2 = 1.66363636 Trained.

So that's 7 mil Trained experience to counteract 4 mil trained, and I think someone said hit half the time with equal dex? Note I did not count the actual cost of the money in the weapon or the ENC needed for the x on the damage of the weapon, or the ENC needed. Now if the goal is to make Dex useful this system completely fails. This character would be better off just dumping all that 5.33 mil trained in dex and use it for more strength for more ENC for more pth. This is probably due to the fact that there are far more Strength boosting items than dex ones, but nonetheless the system isn't working.

In short the problems,
1. Evasion is too effective trained experiencewise. Amf takes equal experience to negate half the damage. This example would probably be dividing the tank damage by 7 or 8 with less experience trained.
2. Dexterity is useless. The extra 5.33 mil in dexterity gets you 50 pth? Just put it all into strength and boost your pth higher.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 8 2008 3:49 PM EDT

JW, I think the answer to your question depends on whom is playing mage at the time.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 4:47 PM EDT

"And then you have a ONE PERCENT chance to hit."

Sure you do.

If you ignore your Offensive Dexterity, and your Base Chance to hit (based on wepaon type).

Then you only have 1% to hit.

Otherwise, you don't.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 4:49 PM EDT

"No tank, even a solo one can get 8M dex"


If a single minion can have a trained 6 Mil Evasion, they can have a trained 6 Mil Dex.

Now compare the MPR of said single minion versus the MPR of the Evasion you're quoting.

bump the single minion up to that MPR and you'll find they can quite *easily* match that Dex, and have XP left for other stats.

But please, rant more.

QBsutekh137 August 8 2008 5:06 PM EDT

GL, a large Evasion counters dexterity AND PTH. A tank cannot train a concentrated dexterity, because dexterity alone, for offense, is utterly useless. Surely you aren't going to next tell folks to use daggers because of their high + potential, are you? Yes, a dexterity-focused tank with a high pth dagger will be able to hit...for a couple hundred points of damage per hit. That's not realistic.

Rants aside, the points made by folks like LB and Ranger state that a dexterity that large, while theoretically attainable, is not realistic. There would be nothing left for STR, first of all.

Evasion, being purely defensive (against both dexterity and PTH), CAN be concentrated. Especially combined with passive offenses such as the RoBF, GA, AMF backlash, etc.

In other words, the offensive investment is not enough to overcome the defensive investment. Worse, the binary nature of hitting means that if you are almost there (but not quite), you might as well have thrown all of that experience away. It is an all-or-nothing game right now, and the fact that Evasion "double dips" (plus ranged enhancement factors, no less!) by eroding dexterity as well as pth adds insult to that injury.

That's why we have a wide variety of ideas, but they all get to the issue one way or another. Reducing Evasion's dexterity portion. Reducing it's pth portion. Reducing that which can enhance it further (AoF). Making Evasion decay in all ways as a battle goes on...

I say keep it simple -- make its investment curve steeper. Then, it DOES become a harder thing to invest in, because it is just like dexterity (level for level), and even when you invest a lot, the effect will be smaller (leaving room for DBs to be more helpful instead of their current, useless stacking). Everything else can still be the same, just make people invest in it more.

Start there. Start simple. Then let's see where things are at.

QBJohnnywas August 8 2008 5:32 PM EDT

"I say keep it simple -- make its investment curve steeper. Then, it DOES become a harder thing to invest in, because it is just like dexterity (level for level), and even when you invest a lot, the effect will be smaller (leaving room for DBs to be more helpful instead of their current, useless stacking). Everything else can still be the same, just make people invest in it more.

Start there. Start simple. Then let's see where things are at."

I've been saying that for ages; if it really is that 'overpowered' at higher levels just make it difficult to get to those levels. It really is the simplest thing. Because currently 'overpowered' or not evasion is only doing what it is designed to do. Too well or not is a matter of opinion. All the suggestions about what it does are kind of a distraction IMO.

And from a personal preference kind of thing give the ToA back it's old bonus to PTH. That'll make the old fashioned ToA tank a bit more palatable, and a bit more useable against evasion teams. Sorry if you're a tank that doesn't use it...I miss the old ToA....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 6:08 PM EDT

"GL, a large Evasion counters dexterity AND PTH. A tank cannot train a concentrated dexterity, because dexterity alone, for offense, is utterly useless. Surely you aren't going to next tell folks to use daggers because of their high + potential, are you? Yes, a dexterity-focused tank with a high pth dagger will be able to hit...for a couple hundred points of damage per hit. That's not realistic."

:P Of course not. ;)

But what are we trying to compare here? A 4 minion team Tanks Dex with a signle minions Evasion (of the same MPR)? Not going to be equal. In any way.

But a signle minion could, if they wanted. Lets assume we're basing our Evasion problems on a RBF single minion with HP, Evasion and AMF trained. A single Tank could train HP, STR and DEX, and have an equivalent base DEX (And maybe stick on a MGS if they wanted some sort of deefnse versus mages). Bar the AoF, they could use all the same Dex boosting gear as the RBF minion, and wack on a ToA, for more DEX (to counter the midiocre Evasion from the RBF), STR (for holding thier bigger weapon) and extra PTH.

So is the -PTH effect of Evasion too much? We can't answer that, only Jon/NS knows where it should be.

But the option is there for the Tank to drop some Dex boosting gear, and use some extra PTH boosting gear. They could opt to lower native trained STR to boost thier native DEX back up, as there is a great deal of STR boosting items out there (more than Dex) which don't interfere with slots they're using for DEX/PTH (Helm, Amulet, Shield).

Equal Dex, and we're back down to Base Chance to hit. which might be where Jon's planned this for equivalnt teams facing each other.

Single Minion versus 4 man isn't equivalent (although it can be tricked to try to be) as the Tank is in essence 4 times smaller than the defensive Evasion they face. So it's not surprising that Tanks on 4 minion teams are facing trouble fom Evasions on single minion teams four times smaller.

But again, this was historically *never* and issue with EC, which allowed Tanks to hit many times. They just did it for Zero Damage...

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 8 2008 6:22 PM EDT

GL where is the single evasion minion and 4 man tank team coming from. If you look, Draco's char is a 4 minion team and not only that but he has 1.5 mil hp trained on that minion as well.

QBRanger August 8 2008 6:24 PM EDT


Let us not complicate things by pointing out the obvious.

As a FOUR minion character, Draco is able to have an evasion high enough for all but 1 or 2 characters to hit with a weapon.

And have 1.5M HP to boot.

But evasion is not too powerful at all; NAH.

Yea, that's the ticket.

Last Gasp August 8 2008 6:25 PM EDT

"That's why we have a wide variety of ideas, but they all get to the issue one way or another. Reducing Evasion's dexterity portion. Reducing it's pth portion. Reducing that which can enhance it further (AoF). Making Evasion decay in all ways as a battle goes on... "

If you follow this philosophy then should not EVERYTHING decay over time?

The affect of a spell should get smaller as it wears out or the caster "tires" out. The strength of a tank (and dexterity too) should drop as they exhaust their energy swinging that weapon. Smaller weapons should be less exhausting to use and create less trouble. Conversely, BIG weapons should do more to tire you out.

How about a spell called "exhaustion" that slowly reduces a teams strength in all things over time (including evasion)?

iBananco [Blue Army] August 8 2008 6:28 PM EDT

The problem with evasion on 4-minion teams is that it's viable to devote all the exp on one minion towards it. A bit of PL and it doesn't really need HP anymore. A tank, on the other hand, generally needs to dump about equal experience in ST as DX for a single minion, and more for multi-minion teams, since they need to get their enc up to hold their weapons, as well as a certain amount in a skill. Single minion tanks that I've seen usually have approximately equal HP, ST, and DX, although there are definitely a good amount with more ST. This means that barring the ToA, a single tank will have approximately 30% of its exp in DX, whereas a 4-minion team tank will have maybe 11% of the team's total exp.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 6:38 PM EDT

"GL where is the single evasion minion and 4 man tank team coming from. If you look, Draco's char is a 4 minion team and not only that but he has 1.5 mil hp trained on that minion as well."

Historically the problem was single RBF users, like Igot and Test2 (versus 4 minion Tanks). My repsonse to Ranger was that it's folly to claim a Tank can't equal/surpase the Dex Ox has got.

4 minon versus 4. 1 versus 1. Same XP ratios, just a simpler example.

If you want, imagine in my post above I said those single minions each had three identical kill slots on thier teams as well.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 6:40 PM EDT

JS, that's why I've always said you'll need to use other minions on a multi minion team to help boost your Tank. GS to help with ENC, Haste to help hitting that Evasion minion.

But it's true. PL imitates what the old RBF could do with 20 HP minons.

That's why we've got the MoD. ;)

QBRanger August 8 2008 7:24 PM EDT


That would be an awesome thing to do, use GS and Haste.

However with DM, those spells well.... suck.

So vs those DM using mages or archers with DM, you will never hit and your weapon will overburden you.

Not a viable idea in CB2. CB1 certainly.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 7:29 PM EDT


You can't be perfect versus Everyone....

Want to be good versus Evasion, accept you'll suck versus DM...

Or use a RoS. Whatever.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2008 7:30 PM EDT

Ranger, what do you want 2H Morg using Tanks to be weak versus?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 8 2008 7:36 PM EDT

Just because doesn't work against everyone doesn't mean it sucks.

That's the core problem with most of your arguments.

You claim the NSC is overpowered because you have to actually train AMF, which only works against people training magic. You beat the evasion horse into a puddle of clotted scab because you can't defeat it with the items you already own.

There is no rule about things going your way every time.
There is NO rule about things going your way EVERY time.

That being said... you were right about evasion needing a change, it got one in the form of a front hitting DD. You even USED IT!

If we want to talk about the greatest threat to balance in CB, I think it's currently PL. How do I know?

Luke freaping Skywalker (1502415) [from the attribute page listing for my TSA+MgS+PL=Wall of SHAME]

I'm abusing it right now. It allows me to survive attack after attack from the largest DD in game. It also allows people to have 4 minion teams with no HP. I think a solid nerf down to an effect equal to it's level is in order... who is with me?

superior me August 8 2008 8:47 PM EDT

im sure people can actually do damage on mage shields and pl batteries but atm we (non USD) tanks cannot hit on evasion so you may face a large damage reduction but we tanks are not doing any damage at all which how can anyone say is fair?

even those using evasion will admit its overpowered why do you think its so popular

QBJohnnywas August 8 2008 9:08 PM EDT

Evasion is currently the most trained skill with 10.9% of characters training it. However archery and bloodlust combined equals 17% of all characters. So currently there is almost twice as many tanks running around with skills trained than there are characters to evade them.

superior me August 8 2008 10:00 PM EDT

yes but amount doesnt mean anything alot of them are probably those who have quit long ago when tanks had a chance in cb lol

Evasion 6.7%

Unarmed Combat 1.4%

Junction 1.1%

Archery 1.0%

Phantom Link 0.8%

Bloodlust 0.5%

Steel Skin 0.2%

that is a more accurate guide all the skills combined excluding evasion make up 5% of total exp used in cb yet evasion alone has 6.7%

that saise alot in my eyes i dont know about you but if 5 skills cannot equal the exp of one alone it pretty much highlights how overpowered and therefore over used evasion is

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 8 2008 10:07 PM EDT

BL takes 1/4th of someones strength and Archery takes 1/5th so you don't need to spend as much in those skills to have max effect compared to Evasion which needs about 1 mil or more for a decent effect to negate most tanks weaponry

QBJohnnywas August 8 2008 10:11 PM EDT

Meanwhile my 2.8 million MPR character can defeat two chars of 3.5 million MPR, thanks almost entirely to my 3.8 million GA, which manages to take care of both the biggest SoD and the 2nd biggest SG in the game.

GA is overpowered!!!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 8 2008 10:12 PM EDT

"yes but amount doesnt mean anything alot of them are probably those who have quit long ago when tanks had a chance in cb lol "

fyi~you can sort out inactive characters as well as narrow your field at the top of the skill/spell popularity page and thus weed out inactive characters.

superior me August 8 2008 10:25 PM EDT

JW, ga can be negated or greatly reduced easily evasion on the other hand not so easily realistically their is no viable way to hit often through large evasion when your a tank even soul catcher with a 250m SoD and best boosting gear in the game cant hit often enough on some evasion users now how can anyone see that as fair

QBJohnnywas August 8 2008 10:40 PM EDT

Evasion is doing what it is supposed to do. That in itself is neither fair or unfair. It just is.

Even without the defensive dex an evasion of 250 is still going to trump a weapon of +200.

So where is the unfair? There seems to be several levels of anti evasion.

1/ Why is it able to negate a weapon?
2/ Why is it able to negate a weapon with very little XP investment?
3/ Why does it have bonuses/defensive dex?
4/ Why does it work so well with the AoF?

The first is easy to answer: evasion is able to negate weapons because that is what it is designed to do.

The second is because it's upgrade curve is not steep enough.

The third was put in place because of the power of the archer.

The 4th is because the AoF works incredibly well with all skills/spells.

1/ Personally I think we should accept the fact that evasion negates weapons. Change that and then what's the point of evasion? I've been around CB long enough to have seen what happens when weapons have no decent counter.

2/ I'm in favour of changing evasion's upgrade curve, always have been. Make it harder to reach the upper numbers. But if you do that then you'll see weapons take over the game again. Which means dropping down damage levels yet again probably. Or introducing some kind of weapon cap to keep balance.

3/ Which pretty much covers archers/SoD users

4/ Reduce the power of the AoF - that really wouldn't bother me, but so many other people other than evasion users employ it, especially PL and UC teams.

See it really isn't as simple as evasion bad "oh it's so unfair". Changing evasion really would have a huge knock on effect on so many other areas.

Which is why I'm in agreement with Sut The Frisky Dingo's comment a little further above about keeping it simple and looking at the upgrade curve first.

superior me August 8 2008 10:51 PM EDT

i know its doing what its ment to do but it can do it with minimal exp expenditure compared to opposing dex, so atleast were on the same page

and i think it is simple change the upgrade curve like you said make it harder to get evasion into those untouchable levels because looking at the top tiers of cb soul collector is the only true tank up there and he had to spend 2k USD in order to do so how unfair is that having to spend USD in order to even compete with non USD mages

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 12:36 AM EDT

I am with you, novice. PL is retarded. Not overpowered, just flat-out mentally deficient. Anyone using it should be ashamed of themselves. :P

Mikel's character is a far better example of that than novice's, however.

PL just needs a really simply tweak: dead things should stay dead (I have always thought that, you can check forum logs). If I land enough to kill something (before the PL leech), it should stay dead. PL isn't a link that is a force field that intercepts the damage. It is a heal spell that should leech off the damage after it hits. If the target is already dead, it stays dead.

That's a very, very simple change that stops abuse. A 20-HP weakling should not be allowed to stand. I certainly have never expected mine to. And the TSA adds insult to that injury.

I think PL is just as bad as Evasion, and the only reason it has never come up is because everyone wants to keep using it as is. By not coming up, I mean NO ONE brings it up. Tanks, mages, passive, aggressive... NO ONE.

That's a sign of something overpowered if I have ever seen one.

Novice has the guts to call it out when he uses it very well. That's basically because novice rocks, but it is also because he sees things very well and has about the least bias I have seen of anyone in this game. That makes sense, since he plays all types of teams, works hard on them, and even starts them from scratch. You can't say that about very many people in the game. Certainly cannot say it about me.

Cube August 9 2008 12:54 AM EDT

Nerfing PL is stupid, it's such a small investment in the first place.

Lochnivar August 9 2008 12:56 AM EDT

Cubic seems to have missed the point here:

Nerfing PL was suggested exactly because it only requires a small investment for large dividends.

Cube August 9 2008 1:02 AM EDT

My point was that it would still be a small investment. It won't make a difference.

superior me August 9 2008 1:32 AM EDT

cubic the fact it requires only a small investment of exp is the problem with pl for that small amount of exp you might buy your damage dealer another 3 round which could be over 5m damage for the small investment not a bad return i know if i had 3 more round on my damage dealer i would be exstatic lol

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 9 2008 2:11 AM EDT

One thing to note is that PL works against everything, both tanks and mages. That in itself balances it a whole lot.

Cube August 9 2008 2:30 AM EDT

This was already solved.

The only problem here is the there aren't any large MoD users, otherwise novice would be slaughtered by them, AS and PL. A counter already exists the problem is that no tank will have a weapon large enough to use for ages.

Weapon artist anyone?

Zaekyr August 9 2008 5:39 AM EDT

I just love it how on all these evasion posts that tanks speak of something they see as unfair.......then all these other things pop up like PL and AoF and MgS.It seems that someone(I think usually mages)wants to change the subject.

All I have ever asked is for others to look at the evasion "problem" with an open mind.

Simply realize that tanks cannot deal damage without hitting.If it is truly to the point of being the only way for a tank to compete is to go solo minion ToA or spend a lot of USD then it really doesn't seem fair to me.

I think the possibility of drastically reducing upgrade costs on weapons might be very helpful since reduction of rewards is more of a nerf for tanks than mages.Since ENC limits weapon size(remember armor counts against it too)no one should have to worry about getting pwned.

No one has made any constructive comments on that idea or the one further above which I made that I think is a fair way to balance the evasion problem.

Evasion could reduce PTH and be damage reduction too(if done carefully).If a mage would really want to negate a tanks hitting them they could train evasion to reduce weapon PTH and a little dexterity to counter dex based chance to hit.The "huge" damage of weapons which mages used to complain about when compared to their spell damage would be equalized through evasion based damage reduction.My simple explanation of how it could work doesn't accuratly reflect the actual numbers involved but if your evasion level is basically equal to dexterity of attacker I figure 50% damage reduction would be quite fair.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 9 2008 12:26 PM EDT

"I just love it how on all these evasion posts that tanks speak of something they see as unfair.......then all these other things pop up like PL and AoF and MgS.It seems that someone(I think usually mages)wants to change the subject."

that is certainly one way of looking at it. another way though is to understand that for every person in the game there is their own personal bane. that strategy that is the rock to their scissors so to speak. tanks have no monopoly on having a thorn in their side, they just tend to be very vocal about theirs!

when someone makes a thread decrying the uberness of their bane, why is it not allowed for others to join in and pule about theirs?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 9 2008 12:30 PM EDT

You missed the point entirely, folks were talking about how 4 minion teams can afford to have a minion training only evasion. PL is what enables this.

Mikel August 9 2008 12:46 PM EDT

Lol PL is the problem now.........

PL enables minions to live longer than they normally would. For it to be truly effective, a huge xp investment in either AS/HP and it doesn't block damage, just shifts it to a different minion.

Evasion, for a lot less xp investment, can be trained up on a 20 hp minion and totally stop all damage from Tanks, PL not needed because it will take 0 damage from a tank.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 12:50 PM EDT

Z, why would I be changing the subject? I have already said Evasion needs nerfing...I agree with that.

If you are going to say mages always seem to want to change the subject, then be fair and say tanks chronically miss the point and miss when a mage is AGREEING with them.

The reason I (speaking only for myself) brought up PL is because it is another small-investment-big-benefit skill, and it affects BOTH physical and magical damage. And yet no one thinks it is a problem in the slightest. Heck, Mikel doesn't even NEED Evasion. If Evasion is so over-powered and PL isn't, why isn't Mikel using Evasion? He's no dummy. He is using what makes him well-nigh invulnerable because of the economies of scale involved with having four minions (with one large one), a TSA, and utilizing PL. He doesn't even need and defensive enchantments, making him also invulnerable to DM.

PL is every bit as "overpowered" as Evasion, in my opinion, and that's not changing the subject seeing as how I already agree that Evasion needs work.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 12:53 PM EDT

Mikel, PL is doing the exact same thing for you -- allowing you to have 20-HP minions that can stay alive for the entire battle. Unable to be dispelled, no work-around.

And I love how casually you say PL "just shifts [damage] to a different minion." Yeah, that's not powerful at all.

Your team is proof of how powerful it is, so the "just" you throw in there isn't as trivial as you make it out to be.

Mikel August 9 2008 1:08 PM EDT

How much do you have invested in evasion?

I have over 120 mil xp invested in my HP alone to make the PL system work, and I regenerate at a rate of 424k. The new DD is my bane, but that's why I have the huge AMF to lower it, and also use GA to give a double whammy if you hit my first big HP minion (ask LA how much it hurts)

And also to say that I am not using evasion is incorrect. Ask the tanks how many can actually hit my 315 total evasion consistently? (mind you I don't even get the Dex advantage as well since I use DB's)

You are also wrong, you can't have a team of 20 hp minions with evasion only, because Mages will eat right thru them, even if you have nothing else but AMF trained, mages are guaranteed to hit, so they will kill them off.

Zaekyr August 9 2008 1:10 PM EDT

I don't see PL as a problem because it is equal.Anyone can train PL and getr it's benefit.

Evasion on the other hand does nothing against a mage but stops a tank cold.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 9 2008 1:20 PM EDT

anyone can train evasion and get its benefit also, no? and you are saying that if evasion also stopped magic damage it would be balance? that would rock for me! ; )

Lord Bob August 9 2008 1:46 PM EDT

Dude, I think what Zaekyr was saying is that PL affects both mages and tanks equally. Evasion only affects a single character class.

I won't comment on the PL issue because until now I wasn't aware there was a problem. I'm not saying their isn't, just that I don't know enough about the skill and the issues around it to judge.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 2:54 PM EDT

Mikel, you are losing me here...

Yes, you have a lot of experience invested in HP. So what? If you aren't taking away from anything else essential (which apparently you aren't, you're winning), then that isn't any sort of sacrifice. In fact, being able to invest all in one thing and have it protect your whole team is sort of, well, fall-off-a-log easy to do.

And you are only supporting my dislike of PL by pointing out Evasion's weaknesses -- I KNOW Evasion only works against tanks: that's why I find PL to be even more powerful. You can keep three 20-HP minions alive against both tanks and mages using one intrinsic stat (HP), one skill (PL), and augment with one item (TSA). So, a PL-based strategy is pretty cheap to run, as well.

What do you mean it isn't fair to say you don't use Evasion? You don't. What's not fair about saying it? If Evasion worked better for you, all the way around, you would use Evasion. You don't. You use PL, and have illustrated why you do so above. The proof is in the pudding.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 2:57 PM EDT

Z, you are mixing things here...

Evasion can be used by anyone.

PL can be used by anyone.

Evasion only affect tanks on the offensive side, so they especially dislike it.

PL works equally well against tanks and mages, yet everyone seems fine with that.

So, I am not sure I understand your point, even with Lord Bob's clarification. If you focus just on defense, PL is actually MORE powerful that Evasion, because it works on everything. If Evasion worked better, a team like King of Pain would be using it, wouldn't it?

Lord Bob August 9 2008 3:04 PM EDT

"PL works equally well against tanks and mages, yet everyone seems fine with that. So, I am not sure I understand your point, even with Lord Bob's clarification."

I think that is the point: that it's not targeting a single character "class." I won't comment on whether or not it's overpowered, since I just don't know enough about it as I said earlier. But I think his point was that it's fair from a mage vs. tank perspective.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 3:26 PM EDT

OK, I guess I see what you are saying -- that's just foreign to me... Something doesn't have to affect one class exclusively for it to be imbalanced...that doesn't even enter into my thought process. Something is either imbalanced, or it isn't. And the more people it affects, the more (I would think) everyone would recognize the issue.

I mean, Evasion not only doesn't affect me, I use it -- and I _still_ think it needs to be changed (and yet several people on this thread still think I am a whiney, excuse-ridden mage *smile*).

But I think I see the point better now.

Mikel August 9 2008 4:39 PM EDT

You keep ignoring the simple fact that I do take damage from both Tanks and Mages, I just have a ton of HP for you to get thru that's all.

With Evasion and a little exp, you can totally nullify Tank Damage and don't need any HP to do so.

Sut, I loved my ToA Archer setup, but it's useless if I can't hit and do any damage at all to those Giant Evasions. I had 7 mil dex and struggled just to get 1 hit in, then when I did, it was weak with the Ranged Damage adjustments that happened a while back. So why bother continuing down a road to nowhere?

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 5:19 PM EDT

I completely agree. And when you left that road, you chose the most successful path -- NOT involving Evasion. You went with HP/PL/TSA.

Like I keep saying, Evasion first, then we'll see about PL. *smile*

Mikel August 9 2008 5:25 PM EDT

And SG.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2008 6:24 PM EDT

Point taken. *smile*

Ryuzaki August 9 2008 9:08 PM EDT

Wait, why is Mikel's pl becoming a problem? He has invested essentially 100% of his xp and net worth into survivability, so it would make sense that he would be rather difficult to kill as he has the 2nd largest char in the game with the second largest tattoo, with the second largest net worth. If you're not ahead of him in any one of those categories at the very least, you shouldn't be beating him, especially if your a mage team.

Cube August 9 2008 11:25 PM EDT

Next you're going to tell me that Ablative shield is overpowered because it can let you have a 20 HP minion. Come on now. Make some sense will you?

superior me August 10 2008 12:11 AM EDT

im no expert on PL or cb for that matter but there are 2 ways around pl that i think are effective

1. beef up a MH/BoNE to obseen "x" like rangers now Anubis's use BL and a ToA and the damage you could do on a survivalist stratagy would be insane and more than enough to surpass the damage shifted by PL but now melee tanks are pretty much dead and useless on most of cb Mikels sitting pretty lol

2. invest in a MoD its base damage is higher than both BoTH and VB and it can also be used in conjuction with SoC and not only does is bipass PL but virtually halves AS which is the backbones to many PL teams

its not like Jon has left us with no viable way to counter PL its just no bodies using it

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 10 2008 12:50 AM EDT

Here is the basic problem with tanks. They cost money to run. Mages do not. Evasion does not. Tanks are also based on exp as well though. To be competitive a tank has to spend some 200ish mil on a weapon in addition to everything else.

Money is less efficient than exp. If you burn all your ba during exp time, hire a minion, spend money on armors, run contests, run an ncb. All these things use money. If you use the money to do them, you don't have the money for weapons. At the same time, it is possible to get ahead with money through the use of usd. This creates a huge gap where people who are not using usd, and those who use usd to keep ahead get farther and farther apart.

USD though is not something most people want to use much, and as it will continue to cost more and more for a tank to keep their weapon up less and less people will keep up with it. Not only that but in order to entice someone to use it in the first place it has to be better than not using it. In other words tank has to be better than mage or else it is pointless.

This all means that whether or not evasion is overpowered, as long as tanks and mages are balanced together tanks will eventually disappear. It also means that as time passes evasion will grow stronger and stronger vs tanks. You would have to slowly make the evasion curve slightly steeper as time passes.

The only solutions that I can see to this are either make tanks less based on money, or mages more based on money.

Making mages more based on money is kind of against the point, so reasonably I think it would be better to try and make tanks less based on money.

My suggestion is this. It would enable easy balancing of evasion as well. Do away with the current way weapons are upgraded and make them upgradeable like armors. These upgrades would effect the special abilities of the weapon. Such as the life drain of the MH and BoTH, or the VB vorpalness. Then add a tab to the train page where you can have weapon familiarity or some such like that. This would be based on the weapon allowance of a team and you would use it on the weapons equipped just like how the current upgrades on weapons are. to the x and + of the weapons.

Then the next step is to balance the weapon allowance with evasion. If tanks need help vs evasion up the weapon allowance. (which would most likely be the case especially with where the WA is now)

I think that having the cost curve for weapons to make it so that to get to their current ability it would cost around 20 mil or so.

This would make it much easier for new players and mages to become tanks, and fully eliminate usd influence on tanks more than on mages. Also it becomes possible to tanks to use new weapons such as the MoD without too many drawbacks.

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 10:35 AM EDT

I sure didn't say AS is a problem, and would appreciate it if you didn't tell me what I was going to say next. Most of the time, _I_ don't even know what I am going to say next. *smile*

AS has a foil -- DM. So of course I am not going to have a problem with AS. PL and native HP have no such foil.

I am well aware that Mikel invests a lot in HP and PL. What does that have to do with anything? Investment doesn't negate the possibility that something is overpowered and/or has "loopholes". One might even argue that if a lot of characters focus a lot of their experience on one specific strategy, that the strategy has become a "can't beat 'em, join 'em" phenomenon -- the very essence of something having a potential imbalance.

Furthermore, I actually don't think a single person has read my PL argument. I am not even saying to nerf PL itself, per se. I am saying that it shouldn't apply AFTER a minion has already been killed. That's all. If I obliterate a 20-HP minion, where is the "leech" coming from? That's leeching from a corpse. In my opinion, the "phantom link" requires life to run -- it is more of a heal spell than a force-field spell, but right now it is being used as a pure force-field spell because it takes the damage off the top.

There are a TON of PL teams that have owned me for OVER A YEAR. Damage reduction teams with PL/TSA have always been my bane. I am well aware of this, and I haven't said a word about actually changing PL until now. My only beef is not being able to kill a single minion. So, I am not asking for a PL nerf, I am asking for a change in the way it applies because I think its current implementation leads to cheap strategies. What you call Mikel's large investment in HP and PL, I call lame. Look at his team, and tell me that isn't just the wall-i-est of wall strategies ever. Last I checked, a lot of folks agree that walls are kind of lame when it comes to minions (including Jonathan), but no one really cares enough to do anything about it. SG helps to fight walls, I suppose, and look where everyone instantly jumped to in regards to that: OVERPOWERED! CB talks out of both sides of its mouth when it comes to walls, and I think it's kind of moronic. Not only do folks actually love walls, they will rail against anything that negates them and remain silent about any quirky game mechanic that gives them additional advantages.

lostling August 10 2008 10:43 AM EDT

PL foil = MOD :) but noooo nobody dares to use it :)

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 10:44 AM EDT

According to the logic from a lot of folks on this thread, lost, that still wouldn't work, because that only helps tanks fight it, not mages.

I'm just going by the same rules other people are putting forth when deciding what is OK and what isn't...

Cube August 10 2008 10:59 AM EDT

I'm sorry PL ToE is a major counter to FB. And I meant that towards novice, he said PL was overpowered because it lets people have pure evasion minions.

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 11:03 AM EDT

Who's using PL/ToE? I was talking about KoP...no ToE there.

lostling August 10 2008 11:11 AM EDT

*shrug* theres always a reason for multi minion teams... maybe its jon way of telling us that we are supposed to mix physical and magical damage?

Ryuzaki August 10 2008 1:20 PM EDT

I still don't understand why mikel's pl is a problem, the reason your losing is that he has a specialized strategy vs mages, not because pl or having walls is overpowered. I mean seriously, there have been so many nerfs to damage reduction. Mikel's strat, the way I see it is essentially like running and ncb strat at the highest levels of the game, extreme specialization, except instead of going for score, he's just killing everyone as the other side has been completely nerfed. He should be able to fight up in pr vs most mages, and good luck getting there.

Also, I seem to remember someone saying that shocking grasp was also a boost for tanks as it allows them to get rid of walls, so if thats the logic isn't it fair for mages to have to use MoD?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 10 2008 1:30 PM EDT

"Wait, why is Mikel's pl becoming a problem? He has invested essentially 100% of his xp and net worth into survivability"

It was a problem when Test2 and Igot invested 100% of their XP into survivability.

Why was it a problem with Evasion, and not now?

Why wasn't it a problem with Sacred Peanuts EC (OK Tanks, is there *any* difference to not hitting ina round, and hitting 5 times for zero damage?)?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 10 2008 1:38 PM EDT

"the reason your losing is that he has a specialized strategy vs mages"


Substitute PL for Evasion, and Mages for Tanks. ;)

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 1:41 PM EDT

Just FYI, one of Mikel's biggest weaknesses is SG -- that's magic. It hits from the front and hits hard, even with his AMF.

Does Mike do a nice number on mages with that AMF? Sure. And he can afford to spend all that experience on AMF because his PL battery is so effective against physical damage as well.

QBJohnnywas August 10 2008 1:43 PM EDT

Mikel hits my 4.1 mill lvl EF for .51. Although it has to be said that thanks to my NSCs I'm only getting hit for quite a small amount of AMF damage. Well, if you can call 300k AMF return small....

lostling August 10 2008 2:15 PM EDT

well how much damage are you doing to him :) thats the question...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 10 2008 2:28 PM EDT

I hit him for between 1-2m, and take 900k a round in backlash. That's with a 6m familiar +14 AoF and +18 NS. He never even hits my familiar with the RoBF, passive damage does 8m damage before he even gets a chance.

QBJohnnywas August 10 2008 2:33 PM EDT

In total over 4 rounds, with a 4.1 million lvl electric familiar, so a 4.1 mill level SG I'm doing about 2 million TOTAL damage. Then I'm dead from AMF/GA damage and the RBF mops up the rest.

Who says SG is overpowered?

lostling August 10 2008 2:46 PM EDT

4.1 * 0.25 = 1.025mill HP

1.025mill HP / 4 = 256,250 backlash damage per round? if theres GA involved then the backlash of that big an AMF is very very little in my books at least

256,250 backlash and if you are doing 500k damage per round... lets say your taking 150k damage from GA... wouldnt that mean your AMF backlash damage is only like 100k? against a 0.5 AMF is pretty scary... wouldnt that mean without AMF you would be dealing 1mill damage per round?

Cube August 10 2008 6:37 PM EDT

You people are insane. The ONLY bonus Mikel gets by using PL is the ability to use his RoBF as if it was on a TSA minion. Sure the TSA is giving him 400k a turn, but he's also got what'd you say, 2 mil in PL or something? You also forget that it nukes his own GA (of course you wouldn't notice that with your massive DM =) ).

Sut, you lose because he has half his XP in AntiMAGICfield and you have TWO mages both without NSC.

So half his xp is working against you at double effectiveness.

Cube August 10 2008 6:53 PM EDT

Sorry, I have to double post.

Soul Collector (F)(+) (The Knighthood) King of Pain (Battle Royale) Soul Collector 5 5:08 PM EDT

Too powerful for tanks? Come on.

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 7:13 PM EDT

Yeah, Cubic. Good post. A massive SoD (aberrantly so) can beat a team that can afford to invest all of it's spare experience in AMF.

Wow. Surprising.

I know Soul Collector could beat him. I already said as much. A massive SoD can beat him because he doesn't have Evasion.

That's why we fix Evasion first. Savvy?

Last Gasp August 10 2008 7:50 PM EDT

Round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows.

QBRanger August 10 2008 8:38 PM EDT

boy have we gotten off track. btw soul collector is the new Koy.

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 9:51 PM EDT

Yeah, it is terrible we moved away from the promise of absolute truth and proof. Thanks for anointing your successor, by the way. I was having trouble continuing on without knowing where all that was going. Now I can keep playing!

QBRanger August 10 2008 10:37 PM EDT

your welcome. glad to keep you up to date. and glad to see you have not changed in you antipathy since I stopped playing.

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 10:52 PM EDT

Just giving back the same amount of useful content! Good use of "antipathy", though. That's a nice word! I think I'll try to use it more in daily conversation!

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 10:53 PM EDT

Oh, and:


I haven't changed my stance on grammar, either. *smile*

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 10 2008 10:54 PM EDT

Sut... please don't forget that Mikel also has the biggest pair of DB in the game... +303 if I'm not mistaken... so its not like he doesn't have any evasion at all

QBsutekh137 August 10 2008 10:59 PM EDT

That's not the skill "Evasion". That's DBs. *smile*

I completely agree he has it all. Never said otherwise. Just said he didn't have any Evasion trained. He decided to spend that hard-earned MPR on PL instead.

Cube August 10 2008 11:23 PM EDT

I was under the impression that people were arguing that Mikels strategy was overpowered because it was good enough at surviving versus tanks while still focused on Mages. My aim was to prove that was not true.

It's hard to rely on comparison of "overpowered" strategies when they are focused. The reason Evasion was a problem was that you hardly need to focus on evasion to win out that battle.

Thraklight Resonance August 10 2008 11:41 PM EDT

Dear Jonathan,

Please give us a wonderful new enchantment titled Cone of Incompetence that works on skills in the same way that Dispel Magic works on enchantments.

Perhaps this new enchantment could start out at a lower percentage of trained experience during ranged rounds and build to 100% of trained experience during melee rounds. Perhaps the enchantment could have a associated penalty by reducing friendly skills by a slight percentage (and be negated by Dispel Magic so that both aren't used on the same team). Perhaps unarmed combat would need to be exempt to keep it from completely destroying that skill. You're smart. Nightstrike is smart. I'm certain that the two of you could work out the details.

Oh, if we can't have pants, can we have kilts? Beee says that they cut down on the cold winter breezes>

Mikel August 11 2008 2:04 AM EDT

I look at it as wow, only a true dedicated USD tank can beat me fairly consistently. *claps hands But Then look at his wins/losses, he still loses to truly dedicated evasion teams.

Whooop-de-doo There's not enough of his type left for it to really matter with my strategy. Since we're heading down the Mage Blender path, I went with an extreme anti-mage strat.

QBRanger August 11 2008 9:00 AM EDT

tough to be 100% perfect when using a cell. but you'll keep me in line. i'm sure of that. I am just waiting for that PL nerf now that it is your latest victim. you successfully got the mgs and tsa nerfed while evasion has stayed still. yes, I knw you agree evasion is powerful,but let us see that old Sut type railing against it. perhaps then something will be done. and yes AA is the next Koy. it is obvious. the only real tank left in the top five.

QBsutekh137 August 11 2008 10:04 AM EDT

Ranger, I have railed against Evasion in exactly the same way as anything else I "rail" against. Please see one of my above responses to GL concerning cth, etc. If there is any softness in my tone when it comes to Evasion it is due to the simple concept of "agency" -- I am not a tank, and I use Evasion. That, by default, makes my railing less effective, don't you think? I have been trying to keep the stage clear for tanks to make their points (because they know way more than me), and they have done so. I don't know what more you would like me to do, nor do I have the slightest clue as to what possibly makes you think you get to order me around.

Please don't project your own wants and needs on me to tell me that I am not "railing" enough. You don't even play any more.

Zaekyr August 11 2008 4:08 PM EDT

It is as I said before.When a discussion about evasion comes up there seems to always be someone or several someones bringing up a whole different topic about something else they feel is overpowered or "unfair".Whenever anyone does that it takes away from the evasion argument and obviously changes the subject.In effect by doing so anyone making mention of anything else in an argument other than the topic subject they are "derailing" that subject.Also,whether it is on purpose or not the change of subject ends up changing what the reader is thinking/learning about.An effective debate strategy,but just as unfair in it's practice as evasion in it's current form.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 11 2008 4:13 PM EDT

And look he is using a ToA!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 11 2008 5:04 PM EDT

so zaek, you are saying that forum threads are not and should not be places of debate, but they should be a place for soapboxing one persons idea in a very one-sided fashion?

there was a thread about self-modded forum threads the other day and this exact subject was brought up. it seemed that others thought i was wrong in saying that it would turn into a soapbox for one-sided discussions.

QBRanger August 11 2008 5:13 PM EDT

So nobody will take me up on my initial post?

All the evasion minions and just those minion, drop their AoF for a day and see how things go?


QBsutekh137 August 11 2008 5:16 PM EDT

Um, several folks have already posted their experiences, Ranger. The experiences range from "can't do it, don't use an AoF" to "didn't change my fight-list."

What are you looking for here, exactly?

QBJohnnywas August 11 2008 5:19 PM EDT

Did you not bother to read your own thread PM? Not that many AoFs being used to boost evasion. More people using them to boost other skills than evasion.

So yes very interesting. The words 'windmills' and 'tilting' come to mind.

Zaekyr August 12 2008 8:53 AM EDT

No dudemus,my only point is that for every thread or comment started on the subject of evasion there has been a change of topic.Open debate is fine but I find that when anybody brings up anything related to evasion there is very little said about the ideas or posted results except for....."what about so-and-so's PL" or something similar that seems to break up any progressive potential for an argument.It would be nice to keep looking at and comparing ideas in order to debate realistic and fair solutions.

Although this thread is titled "I propose something".The first post was in relation to evasion and the belief that AoF is a large factor.Now it seems there are far more posts here discussing how "overpowered" PL is.Which I personally don't think is an issue since it is not imbalanced.

How can anyone complain about the number of evasion threads if they keep getting highjacked for someone else's argument?I could see mentioning it for comparison basis but realistically shouldn't another thread for these other things have been started instead?

Perhaps if we could just try to have some good discussion on evasion and discuss some ideas to balance it there could be agreement.Sometimes I think this is why all these flame wars start.

QBJohnnywas August 12 2008 9:07 AM EDT


the sideline into PL was partly my fault, mostly because I pointed out quite early on that far more AoFs are being used to boost PL than they are evasion. I think my pointing that out led to the discussion about PL.

So yes, the OP was about evasion but it was also about the AoF. In that context discussing PL was actually not that far off topic.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 12 2008 9:41 AM EDT

"Which I personally don't think is an issue since it is not imbalanced."

evidently some people disagree.

the forums have always worked in this manner and is truly what freedom of speech is all about. while i never like the idea of silencing ones voice, when you have multiple posts per week talking about the same thing, it tends to get old.

with that being said, i think people then start branching out just to get some different perspectives. as i stated earlier, if evasion is your bane, it will likely be what you want to complain about. if shocking grasp is more of a problem for you, then that will likely be what you complain about.

any time someone creates a thread complaining about one game mechanic, you are really opening the door for others to do the same, either in their own thread, or in a the one created by you. no one owns a thread, not even the original poster. you can ask people to stay on topic, but with no power to enforce it, it is really futile to waste the energy worrying about it.

when i make an idea post, i love people posting whatever the heck they want. in our little world that is the only free advertising we get...the thread bump. the alternative tends to be the thread disappearing amidst all the other rants and complaints only to be bumped by the original poster or someone of like mindset which really does nothing to further a discussion.

so take it how you like, i am not trying to change your opinion on anything. i will love every bump my threads get though regardless of relevance or agreement as it keeps em at the top! ; )

Dark Dreky August 12 2008 9:43 AM EDT

I actually just took my AoF off and took a whack at my fight list.

Interestingly enough, I only lost to one (an only 50% of the time it seemed) of my opponents. This was using a +11 AoF. I guess I really don't need that 33% boost to my evasion after all! =)

If you would like more stats from me, I will post them.

I found this very shocking to be honest. I would have guessed that I would lose to at least half of my opponents as they are all tank-based teams.

Dark Dreky August 12 2008 9:44 AM EDT

"This was using a +11 AoF."

Erm, this was WITHOUT a +11 AoF.

TheHatchetman August 12 2008 9:45 AM EDT

"every thread or comment started on the subject of evasion there has been a change of topic."

A) You should see how many other topics get turned into Evasion
B) Even if one thread got changed in topic from evasion to something else each day, we'd still have twice as many evasion threads as anything else.
C) Dammit! >.< Was trying to avoid posting in these.
D) Okay, I posted, this thread has been tainted... Community, this is on you, we need at least 5 more evasion threads before more money time comes around! :o

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] August 12 2008 10:01 AM EDT

if somone could lent me his AoF then i can see if its overpowered, i only use an AoI on my evasion mage
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