Selling minions (in General)
August 15 2008 3:22 PM EDT
Haven"t stopped to think this through but: how would it be if you could sell/trade minions - or a new rentals stream? Could throw things up a fair bit...
August 15 2008 3:25 PM EDT
I like the idea. Of course, I also like not have to pay 11M for a new minion...
Sure, and you can then start the count down till someone buys the 4 largest minions in game and destroys everything... I miss the FORS.
August 15 2008 4:16 PM EDT
Let's have a salary cap and just ban anyone who we don't like...
Oh well, I let my imagination run for a bit...
August 15 2008 4:20 PM EDT
Salary cap is actually an intriguing idea.
Maybe have it work like clans, with a max minion XP you can accept?
August 15 2008 4:29 PM EDT
"can we say dream team? "
This team has been retired....
August 15 2008 4:29 PM EDT
If people don't like buying and selling (and, ok, USD-swamping would suck), how about an interchange bench?
Just make a single minion NCB. After a certain point buy a few SFBM with or without NCB. Watch your MPR double...then triple. Watch other teams cry.
Better yet start and NCB with your original minion, buy a large team. A
nd fire you little minion...
OR if you can't do that Just grow a SFBM and buy when the NCB is over.
SO much disaster...where can I start?
August 15 2008 4:49 PM EDT
Well, you could start from the positive end rather than the negative but whatever works for you, huh :)
just for grins i took the largest four single minion teams and added up their mpr for a whopping 11,114,134...the dream team.
(guernica's, god's, hazzard's & mine)
August 15 2008 4:56 PM EDT
Well,the good old General had got a bit dull of late so nice to add some sparkle - set the Dream Team on King of Pain, Dude!
MPR isn't even close to linear. Also, usurpers. :(
"MPR isn't even close to linear."
are you saying the mpr of the individual minions doesn't add up to the team mpr?
"Well, you could start from the positive end rather than the negative but whatever works for you, huh :)"
In reality I'm very optimistic. Whenever I see a new game mechanic I look and I think "How can I break this? How can I abuse this ability to make me stronger" but at the same time I think "Do I really think this mechanic is fair?"
The ability to sell minions allows for too much power. The ability to "buy" mpr is the most expensive thing in the game. Take a look at buying BA during NCB. Take a look at hiring. It'll be nice sure, but in long term and the grand scheme of things, I am sure it'll destroy the game. If Dudumas does what he says who in the game could compete?
and No Dudemas, 2 mil MPR doesn't mean you have twice as much exp as 1 mil MPR
August 15 2008 6:01 PM EDT
Sorry 34thsForsaken - fair enough to look properly. Good to have some fun too though - maybe they can go hand-in-hand ;)
"and No Dudemas, 2 mil MPR doesn't mean you have twice as much exp as 1 mil MPR "
but if you could combine four 2,000,000 mpr single minions on one team your total mpr would be 8,000.000 right?
August 15 2008 8:14 PM EDT
no dude... mpr is related to total xp on a team...
The more xp you have, the less mpr you get from each subsequent minion
Adding a 1mil xp minion to a 1mil mpr char results in more mpr gain than adding the same minion to a 2 mil mpr char.
August 15 2008 8:40 PM EDT
Very Bad Idea. Things would change way to quickly. It would be abused, and make the game extremely stupid.
i am still not sure i understand. you guys are saying xp doesn't convert to mpr in a linear fashion, and i understand that mechanism and how it works for hiring minions. however, if i could make a team out of top single minions, their mpr would add up to a grand total mpr. i am not referring to xp addition in that, but if we could get all those minions on one team then wouldn't their mpr add together?
i do realize that this is purely academic but i am still trying to figure it out. look at it another way, we have said in the past that you can figure out how much mpr is on each member of your team through ratios with each minions total xp, thus giving each of those minions an mpr total that would add up to your teams total mpr. wouldn't the same then hold true if you were able to put the top single minions on one team, their individual mpr's would add up to a big total, as in my example above?
August 16 2008 12:08 AM EDT
Think of it this way dudemus
1) A single minion team and a four minion team have the same total XP at X MPR.
2) A team with 4X MPR has more than 4 times the XP of an X MPR team.
Since a one minion team and a four minion team have the same total XP at X MPR, then a four minion team with 4X MPR has more total XP than 4 single minions with X MPR.
Hope that makes sense :)
right, but if the idea was implemented, then you could transfer minions without ever having to convert to xp, they would come over as is. therefore, if you have one 3m mpr minion and get transferred another 3m mpr miniion, your team would have 6m mpr total, no?
August 16 2008 12:18 AM EDT
Doubling your XP does not double your MPR
again, if you are talking of the mechanism we have now, purchasing minions i understand everyone's point entirely. we are talking hypothetically here about the ability to sell and thus transfer minions. there would be no need for conversion to total xp in this kind of transfer, it would just come over whole to the new team.
either i am totally damned confused or everyone else is, hehe. oh well, i will go sleep on it and see if it becomes clear.
"Doubling your XP does not double your MPR "
yes, i get that! i am not talking about xp at all though. i am talking about doubling your mpr by adding another minion of equal size. i have said nothing about xp in any of my posts and am clueless as to why others are bringing it up even, hehe. i give up!
August 16 2008 12:23 AM EDT
I think that's where the confusion is, it wouldn't double your MPR if you added a minion of the same size.
i do think that is what is confusing to me, you are right. i know that at this point i have around 160 m xp and that equates to 2.8 m mpr or so. i also know that doubling the xp on that minion wouldn't double my mpr.
i did think though that if you had two, three or four minions of that size, then it would double, triple or quadruple your mpr. i guess i thought that xp to mpr on a per minion basis was on a curve, but not on a per team basis if that makes sense.
so then we really can't get the individual minion's mpr on a team by figuring out the ratio of xp to mpr if what you guys are saying is correct? because as you get more xp the xp to mpr ratio is different?
to clarify once again. if you are saying that 100 million xp on a single minion will have one mpr. but if you add that same 100 million xp minion to a team that has a 4m mpr minion on it already, then those two 100 million xp minions will actually add different amounts of mpr to their respective teams?
August 16 2008 12:47 AM EDT
"so then we really can't get the individual minion's mpr on a team by figuring out the ratio of xp to mpr if what you guys are saying is correct? because as you get more xp the xp to mpr ratio is different?"
Correct, if you have 4 minions of equal size on a 2M MPR team you can't simply say each minion is 25% * 2M MPR = 500k MPR in size. Because if each minion was separate, the xp to mpr ratio would be different.
"to clarify once again. if you are saying that 100 million xp on a single minion will have one mpr. but if you add that same 100 million xp minion to a team that has a 4m mpr minion on it already, then those two 100 million xp minions will actually add different amounts of mpr to their respective teams? "
When you add the extra minion, you are increasing the total XP on your team and therefore increasing the XP to MPR ratio meaning it takes more XP to get one extra MPR. That is why the 100M XP minion appears to have less MPR on the multi-minion team than when it is a single minion.
that seems quite awkward and would also seem to make it impossible to use mpr as any kind of comparison when the teams aren't using the same number of minions. i always thought mpr was a good indicator and thus comparison of strength, but if what you say is correct then it really is worthless for comparisons, or at least worth much less.
August 16 2008 12:56 AM EDT
"that seems quite awkward and would also seem to make it impossible to use mpr as any kind of comparison when the teams aren't using the same number of minions"
A four minion team with 40M total XP still has the same MPR as a one minion with 40M total XP.
August 16 2008 1:03 AM EDT
Dudemus - a while back, I edited the MPR page in the Wiki to include the EXP:MPR formula.
I'm feeling lazy right now, but you can easily use that formula to find the MPR of a team after you combined 4 minions with a certain MPR.
Hope that helps a little.
doh, i am confused again then.
"A four minion team with 40M total XP still has the same MPR as a one minion with 40M total XP."
so taking what you just said, then a 160 million xp one minion team would have the same mpr as a 160 million 2 minion team. if each minion on the two minion team was equal, then they would both have 80 million xp? but if i understand correctly, each one would not have 1/2 the mpr of the whole team? or does it just mean that each one would not be half of the single minion team's mpr of the same xp amount? if that is correct though, then those minions whose mpr is not half of the other are half as strong but their mpr doesn't show that?
August 16 2008 1:34 AM EDT
MPR = (Total_XP / 1.4307)^(1/1.2501)
Total_XP = (MPR^1.2501) * 1.4307
So, yes, one minion with 160 mil XP, or 2 minions with 80 mil XP each, or three minions with 53.33 mil XP each, or four minions with 40 mil XP each, they all yield the same total team MPR, namely aprox 2.743 mil MPR.
However, a team with 40 mil XP (one 40 mil XP minion or two of 20 mil each, or four of 10 mil each) would have roughly 900k MPR.
As you can easily see then, if you "merge" four 900k MPR single-minions into a team of four minions, you DON'T get 4*900k=3.6 mil MPR, but a mere 2.7-ish mil MPR.
here is an excel spreadsheet table with xp values and the corresponding mpr values:
xp ~ mpr
100,000,000.00 ~ 1883906
200,000,000.00 ~ 3279925
400,000,000.00 ~ 5710427
to see what i mean by not being able to use mpr at all then as a comparison. look at the team with 100 m xp, it has 1.8 m mpr. if you look at the team with 4 times as much xp it only has about 3 times as much mpr and if that xp is divided equally between four minions, the team is actually four times stronger.
so, as we often compare mpr's at the top and try to use those numbers to argue balance, it really means very little depending on whether the teams have the same number of minions or not.
August 16 2008 1:37 AM EDT
On a separate note, the ONE thing that is completely and totally linear with XP is "Maximum tattoo level".
MTL = Total_XP / 24 (or in other words, half of total potential levels)
That's why quite a bit of us got miffed when it was removed from the show-info and only MPR left instead.
You CAN calculate MTL from VPR (which is in most cases close enough to MPR, which is visible), but it is cumbersome to do so.
i think i have always just assumed that since we do use it as a benchmark of teams power that it was somewhat equal across the board. i learned something today, thanks to the patience of all who helped. i don't necessarily like what i have learned, but knowledge is power.
August 16 2008 1:40 AM EDT
Well, it is a benchmark of power... it's just not linear :)
"Well, it is a benchmark of power... it's just not linear :) "
see above, it isn't a very useful one as it really doesn't work well as a comparison between teams of different minion count. it probably is also terribly skewed as a benchmark depending on when you hired minions, it is too late for me to think much on that one though at the moment. as far as benchmarks go, i was under the impression that if you have that many variables, then it really isn't a benchmark at all.
August 16 2008 3:23 AM EDT
Well... it depends.
Would you say that 4 minions of 40 mil XP each will do exactly 4 times better than a single 40 mil XP minion ? The game seems to assume that no, they wouldn't...
How about 4 minions of 40 mil XP each against a single 160 mil XP minion ? Apparently, the game would say they have equal chances, but some people would argue that the single minion will beat the four smaller ones to a bloody pulp.
What about 2 minions of 80 mil each vs 4 minions of 40 mil each ?
Well, ONE thing is almost certain however.
IF during the entire career you ONLY fight people of a certain percentage above your power/score, then the game is designed in such a way that your MPR rises LINEARLY.
So... you could say that MPR is more a measure of growth rate rather than actual power...
August 16 2008 7:11 AM EDT
"see above, it isn't a very useful one as it really doesn't work well as a comparison between teams of different minion count."
A single minion with 40M total XP is just as strong as a four minion team with 10M XP on each minion yes?
Both teams have the same total XP and therefore the same MPR. I'm not sure why you don't think MPR is a useful comparison across teams with different numbers of minions.
when comparing same xp and same mpr it tends to do better than when comparing different values as shown above. here are some more values from the table to hopefully show what i meant:
xp ~ mpr
100,000,000 ~ 1,883,906
200,000,000 ~ 3,279,925
400,000,000 ~ 5,710,427
800,000,000 ~ 9,941,990
1,600,000,000 ~ 17,309,242
3,200,000,000 ~ 30,135,805
6,400,000,000 ~ 52,467,156
12,800,000,000 ~ 91,346,573
25,600,000,000 ~ 159,036,566
51,200,000,000 ~ 276,886,463
102,400,000,000 ~ 482,065,948
204,800,000,000 ~ 839,288,335
409,600,000,000 ~ 1,461,221,048
819,200,000,000 ~ 2,544,020,763
1,638,400,000,000 ~ 4,429,200,943
comparing the going from 100m xp to 800m xp (8x the xp) only increases mpr by a factor of around 5 while going to the next value and increasing xp by 16 only increases the mpr by a value of less than ten.
when our xp expenditures were also non-linear, this probably all balance out more. now that our xp expenditures have become linear it just seems that the higher we go the less mpr means.
with that xp change perhaps mpr should have changed as well?
on the other hand though, does this actually make it easier to stay within 60 percent of the top mpr and thus easier to stay in the 6/20 once there since staying within 60 percent of their mpr is not equal to staying within 60 percent of their xp?
or does it make it harder to stay at 60 percent mpr?
August 16 2008 10:15 AM EDT
It makes it easier to get within 60% of the top teams MPR.
actually, if i figured it correctly, which is never guaranteed, to maintain a 60% percent mpr ratio, the xp factor is also constant at just under 53%. so you need to maintain 60 percent of the top teams mpr, but that can be done with only getting 53% of the top teams xp.
August 17 2008 12:25 AM EDT
OK, I am still confused on this (sorry, dude, I forgot to post earlier...)
How do minions add to total MPR? If I have two huge MPRs, both a million MPR on a single minion, what happens if I combine them?
Here's maybe a better mental exercise... What if I have a four minion team, 4 minion from the start, and the team has 1 million MPR. Let's say I fire one...what will the MPR be?
Fire another? Then another? What does that diminishing MPR look like?
Probably the easier way to show an MPR curve by minion.
I'd do it, but all my farms are single minion. Anyone care to dissolve a team and graph the results?
The MPR of a perfectly equal team of 4 is the MPR you'd get from a single minion with 4x the exp of any minion. Fire one, and the MPR is identical to a single minion with 3x the exp. Thus, the real question that you're asking is, "What's the equation that relates total exp and MPR?"
"just for grins i took the largest four single minion teams and added up their mpr for a whopping 11,114,134...the dream team. (guernica's, god's, hazzard's & mine)"
i think, using this same example, i would have to convert each individual's mpr to total xp, then add up all of the xp to get a total xp, then convert that number to a new team mpr. if i round everyone to 3m mpr it looks like this:
3m mpr = 178,894,858 xp
178,894,858 * 4 = 715,579,432 team xp
715,579,432 team xp = 9,093,493 team mpr
i think that is right now anyways.
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