EO: You must be this tall to ride (in General)
I think raising the initial XP expenditure for some attributes would go a long way towards cleaning up the early game and making it more interesting.
Imagine guiding new players strats by simply raising the bar...
it'll definitely affect tournies
<novice> and there goes the post
<novice> EC AMF and DM should require half a mil XP to start training
<novice> make the early game a LOT more fun
<novice> make skills cost 100k
<Draugluin> Don't they already have experience requirements?
<novice> very very low
<novice> first five minutes of play low
<lostling> thats.... nutz =x
<novice> it would give newbies a chance to catch a breath before they hit the EC AMF wall
<novice> confusion and scattered setups would be a thing of the past
<OddBird> I wouldn't go that far
<novice> why not?
<OddBird> newbies will always start, see all the skills, and try to train every one
<novice> So stop them
<OddBird> unless you are suggesting allowing only DD, HP, STR, and DX
<novice> add things in slowly
<OddBird> ...that would make early game 100% lamefest
<novice> why shouldn't you have a to play for a hour before you get to train an enchantment
<OddBird> novice, think about it. My options are basic tank, basic mage, NOTHING else
<novice> but you can see the other options... you have goals
<novice> paper RPG games are full of those kind of things
<lostling> yep... but half a million exp is exessive
<OddBird> I dunno, nov. Are you sure that's how it will work? Or will they say "man, I have to wait like for EVER before I can do anything fun" and quit
<Draugluin> But half a million doesn't come in an hour.
<novice> that's a day of play lost
<Draugluin> Or does it now?
<lostling> actually no it aint a day of play
<OddBird> not a day by far, that's about a week
<lostling> down low you get like what 100 exp a fight?
<Draugluin> Especially with the reduced rewards earlier
<OddBird> less than that early
<OddBird> rewards are very small early on
<novice> a week isn't that long
<novice> how long have you two been playing;/
<OddBird> yes, but to someone who has never played the game before
<OddBird> "man, I have to wait a WHOLE WEEK before I can do anything fun"
<OddBird> for them, that is forever
<novice> How many hours do you play a graphical RPG before you have access to all the enchantments?
<lostling> OB not really the point
<Draugluin> You could always stagger the introductions to each skill/spell
<JarL> honestly, some more in depth strategy pages would help more than higher costs
<Draugluin> Like, a day, and another, and another
<novice> I think you've been spoiled
<lostling> i think it should be based on MPR
<OddBird> what's the point then, lostling? I don't mind simplifying things, but I don't wanna drive off the new crowd
<OddBird> novice, this has *nothing* to do with me, this has to do with making sure game changes don't drive people out
<novice> Jarl: wrong... newbs don't understand strat
<lostling> say 20k exp for evasion 50k for BL 100k for PL
<lostling> i mean 20k MPR
<JarL> thats why giving them more in depth guides would hlep
<OddBird> termntr - go to manage characters
<Draugluin> Its next to Equip and Train
<novice> OB: what we've got now is overwhelming... and unlike any other game out there
<lostling> all im saying 500k exp just to train a spell is overwhelming too
<OddBird> double agreed
<lostling> dont get me wrong... im all for increasing the bar
<novice> Why? power should take work
<lostling> term yep u see that button call train
<Draugluin> 500k before the first extra skill is excessive
<novice> and a week is nothing
<OddBird> yes, but power does not necessarily equal AS
<lostling> but a base skill isnt power
<novice> Draug: I'm talking about just EO
<OddBird> novice - to you and me, yes. To most people nowadays? no
<Draugluin> Oh, in that case, sure.
<lostling> i just dont get it...
<lostling> is AMF and EC and DM really that powerful? :)
<lostling> and wouldnt that allow EDs to pwn down low?
<novice> I'm not saying they shouldn't also be adjusted
<lostling> i dont know... but DM seems the only thing keeping ED in check atm
<novice> my basic point is that the current system is too much too fast
ewww <pre> and the new forums don't get along...
I'm sorry to whoever gets to clean that up.
As long as that doesn't effect UC! :P
The powerful ED's already have a steep cost, like VA's 14K. Upping the cost of EC might be useful, but AMF is really needed to counter low level FB.
August 21 2008 2:30 PM EDT
So..you're suggesting this so that people don't train EOs down low? To help simplify newb strategies?
basically, I think the too much too young effect is one of the main problems early on...
in addition I think having nearly everything available doesn't leave much to look forward to.
August 21 2008 8:12 PM EDT
why guide the newbies toward a strat, the whole fun of this game is being unique and picking a strat that suits you.
I say we give them the option to be guided or not.
Almost every other game I can think of has a system like this, likely every other game any of you have played has too. Giving users a grind to achieve certain skills and thus augment their strategies is a good way to keep users interested and gives them a long term goal.
wouldn't they just leave after getting all the stats at like 200k MPR or so?
A sense of achievement may keep them interested
August 21 2008 9:25 PM EDT
I'm not sure if you want to think of the skills as something to grind to. That means that they'll see each skill or whatever as an upgrade(or just simply better than the previous skill) because it costs more experience. I think that it's just too controlling to choose which skills should be used by newbies and which should not.
August 21 2008 9:57 PM EDT
Far as the grind, it would be nice to let the newbies know what they are in for with the real game... CB is not a game of days, or weeks. Unfortunately, for many, it was a game of four months... At least now it'll be six. But for real CBers, this is a game of years.
Upset because it takes you a week to get a stat or item? This is not the game for you. We should let newbies know that before they realize that they can make a whopping 8 bucks a week by abusing our economy... ;)
Far as nov's original thread, I would imagine it is to prevent teams like this
August 21 2008 10:03 PM EDT
^ looks like my first team
August 22 2008 4:02 AM EDT
Most games do have systems like this. These same games stop you at level 99, (or wherever). We play in a bottomless pit of XP sink, as it were. With no top to achieve, it seems backwards to say 'use these til you have 100k XP, then train these for the rest of your life.'
While you can find infrastructures that depend and thrive on this type of advancement, to implement it here would require such an incredible revamp that we would be looking at CB3.
Before you can "keep the good stuff from the bottom feeders", you must first give them something else to use( which is an awesome amount of work in itself). And at that point you must consider, who is really a bottom feeder, and will that 'low-level' status retain its level while the high end grows infinitely?
And seriously, who is complaining at low levels? You can do anything you want and it works down there. Clean up 1-1.5mil+ mpr range.
"You can do anything you want and it works down there. Clean up 1-1.5mil+ mpr range."
I think you might be surprised how difficult it might be if you have a weapon that's more than doubling your PR by going over your WA, as well as going over your ENC, DCMs and Heaumes on every minion, everything available trained (including a DD spell on each minion!), facing any kind of EC/AMF.
Remember that we're talking about new players here, ones that don't know that some armor isn't worth getting, that getting lots of skills and spells makes you weaker, and that don't truly understand the mechanics of the game.
August 22 2008 4:44 AM EDT
The bottom of CB is very fouled up and it's actually pretty hard to get 100% challenge bonus. I assume newbies would find it discouraging because I found it annoying enough when starting an NCB, though I didn't use the standard Single minion RoBF or anything.
August 22 2008 5:25 AM EDT
<quote> think you might be surprised how difficult it might be if you have a weapon that's more than doubling your PR by going over your WA, as well as going over your ENC, DCMs and Heaumes on every minion, everything available trained (including a DD spell on each minion!), facing any kind of EC/AMF.
Well I completely agree with that. I see it all too often when trying to help a new player. But really, I was referring totally to the idea of, say... making the base cost of FB, DM, or whatever spell/skill 500k XP. Granted this would keep NUB's from having four minion teams, on which all minions have FB, EC, archery, etc. But it seems to make more sense to revamp the tutorial than to revamp all the spells/skills.
"DCMs and Heaumes on every minion"
Why do we have DCMs and Heaumes? Are things like this intentional new player traps? Is it supposed to be part of the intrinsic difficulty of CB?
August 22 2008 2:01 PM EDT
I really like this idea. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
maybe the DCM and Heaume can have similar stats to AC and HoD, except with a damage prevention cap or something. So they are actually useful in a sense. I tried doing hatchetman's heavy tank guide in the last tourny (I weren't allowed range damage anyway), and it fails horribly because there is no way I could get enough upgrade on that dreaded BoNE to compete with anything, and the armor just doesn't stop enough damage.
August 24 2008 10:38 AM EDT
I really don't see why the cost of certain skills and EO's need to be increased. It's not like they're broken. If you hit a wall, you change your strategy--at least at low levels its easy to retrain.
This is a strategy game, if your strategy fails because of certain skills, you shouldn't change the game, you should change your strategy. If you think the EO's are too good, find a good way to counter them, don't change the game. I think the game would become really boring at low levels if you increased the cost to say, 500k..., not to mention, it would force newbs to use a certain strategy to get to the point where they can use the skills, and may find that the strategy they've been forced to use is no longer useful. I think increasing the bar is a really silly idea.
You try being a mentor... you try telling a new person not to use all the things that they have trained... you try being a newb and training every skill/Eo/Ed/DD on every one of your minions and then getting very upset and overwhelmed when you can't beat anyone then give up on the game...
The only reason this idea was brought up is to make it easier to retain new people... there is alot of spells and skills that one needs to take in at the beginning of this game not to mention alot of strategising just to use them... why allow access to all of them right from the get go... it was quite overwhelming for me when I first started and that was before we even had the wiki to go and read about everything... What is wrong with making some of the spells and skills and such cost 100k to use them? That in my opinion would help out our new player retention quite alot ^_^
Newbies don't get enough things "hammered" into their heads when they start to play.
Of course many would not read it, but why not just make a full page, during or after the tutorial, appear to state what the "golden" rules of the game are AND remind them to re-read the ToS?
Paint it with neon colors, whatever... Just make sure the newbies read and cannot miss it. You can't expect everyone to open the wiki as the their first action on CB. (That is where the golden rules I mentioned are written.)
Raising the XP bar (for anything under the train page) would just make the early game super-extra-boring, I think.
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