balance issue with hal? (in General)


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 2:28 PM EDT

I was wondering if those smarter than me regarding strategies could help me out here. Since the evasion changes, these two teams beat me occasionally, not very often but they do win against me.

They are both 3 minion teams and their tats are about the same size as mine or at least the larger one is. Their mpr however is quite a bit lower and it must be more diluted with the more minions.

I have one third of my single minions xp (around 55 million xp) into evasion for a final effect in post battle stats of 218. my mpr is around 2.8 million. Here are the teams that concern me:

Suqataqus a 2.2 million mpr team with a 3.8 million level halidon familiar

The Bridgeburners a 1.9 million mpr team with a 4.3 million level halidon familiar

I am not sure if their setup is just a good foil for mine or if this is why people are saying that hal is the bomb.

Cube September 2 2008 2:31 PM EDT

They are both on the top of my favorites list; however, I have much more NW sunk into my character than either of them.

The halidon provides a very cheap archer that's essentially equally effective, except that it costs no money. It does seem like an issue to me.

QBJohnnywas September 2 2008 2:37 PM EDT

A 4.3 million lvl Hal is the equivalent to having a single minion with over 2 million ST and 2 million Dex and an ELB that's almost bigger than any of the existing standalone bows. It's no wonder they're so powerful. Add junctioned items and you're looking at a really damn good tank!


I lose to a lot of them....

Cube September 2 2008 2:38 PM EDT

The major concern would be that they are both heavily invested into DM, which does nothing to you. Likewise though your AMF doesn't do anything to them, so how big is your AMF?

Based on the two pth values in the wiki their Hal's pth is doing nothing versus you, so they are getting pure dex hits. They might miss if you retrained to have some dexterity, but I'm not sure on that.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 2:39 PM EDT

the same as evasion, i have 1/3 into hp, evasion and amf. right at 55million xp into each.

Dark Dreky September 2 2008 2:40 PM EDT

These two (Suq and Bridgeburners) were at the top of my list not too long ago.

It seems now I cannot beat any Hal teams around my PR/MPR now.. with well more than 50% of my total XP being invested into Evasion.

I agree that this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 2:41 PM EDT

Hit Points 4,802,604
Strength 20 20
Dexterity 27 20
Evasion 8,282,945~4,653,340~249~198
Antimagic Field 5,655,430~4,635,599~?~?

those are my stats, post battle evasion is 218 though due to the 2/3 penalty.

QBJohnnywas September 2 2008 2:44 PM EDT

I think the issue with the Hal is the size of the bow they use. If a tattoo as small (comparitively) as 4.3 million levels can have a bow that's almost bigger than every ELB in the game then there is something a little off..

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 2:45 PM EDT

from the wiki regarding hal:

Weapons: Elven Long Bow (ELB) with 100% Chance-to-Hit (CTH) during Ranged Combat, reduced to 40% CTH during Melee Combat.

how is the 100% cth in ranged affected by evasion?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 2:49 PM EDT

here is a battle log from a fight with the bridgeburners where i lost. it seems odd that he hits so often in ranged, but the melee hit seems way out of whack!

Ranged Combat



Hal hit the pacifist [1200313]

Hal's shot flew past the pacifist

Hal's shot went wide of the pacifist

Hal hit the pacifist [1199413]

Hal hit the pacifist [774740]

Hal shot the pacifist [1196515]




Melee Combat



Quick Ben burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (1157502)
Hal's shot flew past the pacifist

Quick Ben burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (1243610)
R.I.P. Quick Ben

Fiddler burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (1071327)
Hal struck deep into the pacifist [1172798]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"

three4thsforsaken September 2 2008 2:50 PM EDT

I don't believe Hal is overpowered. I possess the 2nd largest Hal in the game, and I realize that most of my damage relies on multiple hits. With damage usually ranging from 400k-800k this makes me incredibly prone to GA and in some cases a combination of damage reduction and dodging.

Hal's purpose exist only in ranged rounds, after that he becomes much much more prone to dodging and fires only every other round.

That in mind, Hal really shines against single minion teams, with no kill slots and low HP, things are dandy, especially if they multiple minions. Hal also shines against teams with weak defenses. But other than that, having Hal as ones only damage dealer is a difficult one. And having two damage dealers with one being a familar is kind of hard on a team defensivly. It's far from perfect, like how the old RoBF was.

Adminedyit September 2 2008 2:50 PM EDT

odd, both of them are on my favorites list, yet i at best can only stalemate you dudemus, 1 hit out of 30 rounds with a +225 weapon...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2008 2:53 PM EDT

considering they start out with 200% base CTH it's surprising anyone can dodge the damn things...

I've got 200m into dbs, almost double the NW of Relic/Glory's tat... he triple hits me without a problem... his Hal does damage, acts as a kill slot and absorbs physical blows... my dbs... well I don't have to tell you what they do now.

Next tank to complain is going to get a big fat raspberry from me...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 2:53 PM EDT

to be clear, that is where i see the disparity and the balance issue. if the top bows in the game were doing the same then i would assume it is all working as intended. if however, as edyit brings up, the hal is doing better than archers who have invested heavily in weapons, then something may be off or in error.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 2:56 PM EDT

i guess i should have said top weapons in game rather than bows as edyit is using a morg.

Cube September 2 2008 3:01 PM EDT

Edyit misses because dexterity was made much more important that pth in fighting evasion with the recent change.

I have no idea how the hal hits you in melee though.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2008 3:06 PM EDT

Edy has enough EC to cripple almost anyone...

Colonel Custard September 2 2008 3:10 PM EDT

I miss you with 259 Melee Bonus To-Hit.

What I think is out of whack is your RoBF hitting for 1.7mil damage.

Cube September 2 2008 3:11 PM EDT

Spite (5262170)
That's levels right? So 2.6 mil effect.

Evasion 8,282,945~4,653,340~249~198.

8.3 mil * 2/3 = 5.53 mil

So dude still has 3 mil defensive dex versus Edyit.

Cube September 2 2008 3:16 PM EDT

Oops I missed Dude's AoF, but still 2.6 mil * 1.36 = 3.5 mil ish, so dude has 2 mil defensive dex left after his EC.

Colonel Custard September 2 2008 3:18 PM EDT

This is him against me in ranged: 5 / 6 / 558,414

I have 178 Total Evasion in post-battle stats. 5 hits in 6 rounds.

three4thsforsaken September 2 2008 3:33 PM EDT

What kind of gets me is how everyone is comparing Hal to the average archer. But he isn't he is a familar. Just like how a DD familiar can outclass most mages in damage (AoF anyone?) Hal is treated the same. EF anyone? IF? Untrain your AMFs and train EC, and see how effective Hal is.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2008 3:41 PM EDT

The Hal lacks the key problem with the familiars. AMF return is impossible to overcome for familiars.

I also think you're confused as to the ability of mages compared to familiars. It's nearly impossible to match the damage of a well built mage team with a familiar. The only thing familiars offer is focused DD to teams that don't have a massive minion, at the cost of any sort of reasonable defense. Heck compared to the DD familiars the Hal is a beefcake!

Cube September 2 2008 3:44 PM EDT

Mageseeker

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 3:44 PM EDT

here's a battle log where suqatus (sp?) also hits me in melee as well as all but once in ranged:

Ranged Combat


Hal shot the pacifist [1103070]

Hal's shot ricocheted near the pacifist

Hal hit the pacifist [808185]

Hal hit the pacifist [1126956]

Hal shot the pacifist [698119]

Hal's shot went wide of the pacifist



Melee Combat


Distraction burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (1145305)
Hal struck deep into the pacifist [1080797]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
R.I.P. the pacifist R.I.P. Distraction

iBananco [Blue Army] September 2 2008 3:45 PM EDT

IIRC, DX/ST boosters work at an insane efficiency compared to normal tanks as well.

Ryuzaki September 2 2008 3:48 PM EDT

Well, GA return is almost impossible to overcome with the Hal, also notice that the Hal does not target well, unlike the familiar's dd and other ranged weapons. This is a huge issue, considering the complaints against pl which is essentially controlling the opponent's target.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2008 3:50 PM EDT

DM works just fine... nice try

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 3:51 PM EDT

with a 40 percent reduction to cth in melee though, i see no way they should be hitting me. i also think in ranged they probably shouldn't be hitting as often, but the melee is what blows my mind.

Ryuzaki September 2 2008 3:53 PM EDT

Just realized the problem with my statement, i forgot about dm, just pay attention to the other issue.

Colonel Custard September 2 2008 4:00 PM EDT

I guess I should have specified what I posted a little bit ago was against suqataqus. He hit me 5 times in 6 rounds in ranged, but did not land a hit in melee.

Suqataqus September 2 2008 4:09 PM EDT

Just as a note, I also am using BoF on my front minion, giving my Hal a bigger boost to hit you Evasion/RoBF people :), and have 3.75m DX on my Hal.

Sickone September 2 2008 4:12 PM EDT


POST-BATTLE STATS

Greater Halidon Familiar

Hit Points -495,296
Strength 6,356,724
Dexterity 3,051,594
Armor Class 77
Melee Base to-Hit 60
Melee Bonus to-Hit 124
Ranged Base to-Hit 100
Ranged Bonus to-Hit 110
Damage Inflicted 4,645,290


Play-by-play
Occam's Razor igot noname
Greater Halidon Familiar found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
the pacifist found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field

Ranged Combat
Greater Halidon Familiar hit the pacifist [1214018]


Greater Halidon Familiar shot the pacifist [1058988]


Greater Halidon Familiar hit the pacifist [1089101]


Greater Halidon Familiar's shot flew past the pacifist


Greater Halidon Familiar's shot went wide of the pacifist


Greater Halidon Familiar shot the pacifist [780950]


___


Greater Halidon Familiar
Hit Points: 4,000,000
Armor: 77
Strength: 6,356,724 / 3,612,507
Dexterity: 3,051,594 / 1,426,342
Archery: 1.00 / 0.82

An Elven Long Bow [6x2000] (+0)
[...]
A Tattoo of Augmentation lvl 3,195,866
[...]


That's hardly the largest bow in the world, and I have nothing on plus except the ToA-granted plus.

Suqataqus September 2 2008 4:17 PM EDT

I think all of my hits are landing based on DX with you Dude. My PTH with BoF added in is around 185 I believe. That's assuming +28 BoF is equal to +14 PTH (ST/DD get 0.5% per plus, so I'm not sure if PTH is also a % and is just missing the sign on the wiki or not).

Some times when we fight, I miss every single ranged round. Some I hit every round. That's why I haven't kept you on my list (too random).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 4:19 PM EDT

here is a battle log against ernest-scribbler's scion team. he has the elb with the larget + that is equipped. mikel has a bigger one but it is on a very small character.



Ranged Combat
Reya Dawn bringer's shot flew past the pacifist

Reya Dawn bringer undershot the pacifist

Reya Dawn bringer overshot the pacifist

Reya Dawn bringer shot the pacifist with A Pious Bow [1037840]

Reya Dawn bringer's shot ricocheted near the pacifist

Reya Dawn bringer shot the pacifist with A Pious Bow [1036471]

Melee Combat
Reya Dawn bringer burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (1227942)
Pariah absorbs damage [703009]
Reya Dawn bringer undershot the pacifist
Pariah regenerated 87,273 HP

Reya Dawn bringer burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (1306125)
Pariah absorbs damage [703009]
Pariah regenerated 87,273 HP

Reya Dawn bringer burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (1267126)
Reya Dawn bringer's shot flew past the pacifist
Pariah regenerated 87,273 HP
R.I.P. Reya Dawn bringer

Pariah burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (823502)
Pariah regenerated 87,273 HP

Pariah burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (743895)
Pariah regenerated 87,273 HP
R.I.P. Pariah

i will have to check out the other fight log from sickone when i get back from town and see what is going on there if i can. this one shows what i usually see though with elb users, missing the first few rounds of ranged, some hits if any in the last 2 to 3 ranged and then nothing in melee.

QBOddBird September 2 2008 4:22 PM EDT

"A 4.3 million lvl Hal is the equivalent to having a single minion with over 2 million ST and 2 million Dex and an ELB that's almost bigger than any of the existing standalone bows. It's no wonder they're so powerful. Add junctioned items and you're looking at a really damn good tank! "

The difference is that this really damn good tank only lasts 5-6 rounds: I've always seen that as the counterpoint to its excellent damage and accuracy. In melee it takes a huge DX/PTH hit (or should, as I'll address shortly)


"those are my stats, post battle evasion is 218 though due to the 2/3 penalty"

The issue is probably partially due to the Hal being the only physical weapon in the game consistently hitting the old Evasion ;) so it is adjusted for a stat which has recently been changed.


"I don't believe Hal is overpowered. I possess the 2nd largest Hal in the game, and I realize that most of my damage relies on multiple hits. With damage usually ranging from 400k-800k this makes me incredibly prone to GA and in some cases a combination of damage reduction and dodging.

Hal's purpose exist only in ranged rounds, after that he becomes much much more prone to dodging and fires only every other round."


I think it's a bit on the upside of the scale with Evasion changed, but for the most part I agree. The only way to augment Hal's HP is with AS (DM'able) or Junction: for a familiar doing multiple hits (and yes, this is a huge disadvantage in comparison to DD familiars, which do one big hit at a time) he doesn't have nearly enough HP to deal with any GA. Plus the huge hit to DX, PTH, and firing every other round in melee.



"Edyit misses because dexterity was made much more important that pth in fighting evasion with the recent change.

I have no idea how the hal hits you in melee though. "

Agreed to all of that. I don't see how Hal is hitting in melee. That's the part that bothers me, far more than the fact that Hal is hitting in the ranged rounds he is designed to hit in.


"The Hal lacks the key problem with the familiars. AMF return is impossible to overcome for familiars. "

Key problem with DD* familiars, he suffers from most of the tank problems: AC affects him more, he hits multiple times making him weaker to GA, he is EC'able and Evasionable (to a much lesser extent now than before.)


"IIRC, DX/ST boosters work at an insane efficiency compared to normal tanks as well. "

Correct, 150% efficiency on ST/DX items for the Hal and JKF.




I don't see the Hal as an overpowered item, but one that is still in a state of adjustment for a recently-nerfed skill. There's no reason to panic, as changemonth has *just* started and it's not even been 48 hours since Evasion was changed. However, it definitely does need adjustment if it is hitting in melee now: that was an impossibility for Hal with the old Evasion. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2008 4:22 PM EDT

mmm buggy

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 4:23 PM EDT

suq, i believe if we were close to any kind of threshold on either you or bridgeburner, then the melee hits would never happen. it is quite random and that is another reason i think something is wrong.

Suqataqus September 2 2008 4:26 PM EDT

Don't forget that Scion has significantly lower DX than the high end Halidons do. He has just under 2m DX, while my Hal has nearly double that. Your evasion's defensive DX dwarfs his DX, but against mine it's very close.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 5:28 PM EDT

if that is the reason, then i have an issue with that. if i as a single minion with 1/3 of my xp into evasion and top notch aof, elven gloves and boots cannot stay ahead of someone's dex who has 3 minions, then perhaps we have gone too far. given especially that our tats are so close, someone at your mpr would have no chance.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 2 2008 5:40 PM EDT

I hate to say I told you so, but when one overpowered little thing goes away, evasion, then another will rear its ugly head. Omg how did this happen?

And now all teams, including tank teams, have problems with this thing?

mmm you need evasion to dodge an archer, ow wait, that is nerfed.

QBOddBird September 2 2008 6:02 PM EDT

When comparing Sickone's post to dudemus', it seems that one is collected data with the maximum # of hits and the other with the minimum.


Less bias would bring this potential "overpoweredness" into a better light, methinks.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 6:30 PM EDT

i am not real sure from your post who you think is being biased. i showed the entire fight log for fights where suq or bridgeburners beat me and hit in ranged as well as melee. there were some where they beat me just in ranged, but i thought the ones with melee hits would cover all bases.

if you have a better methodology for data collection, let me know and i will try to comply with that. if it wasn't me that you thought was being biased, then you can ignore this.

Colonel Custard September 2 2008 6:48 PM EDT

Hmmmm... looking at the wiki, it looks like I *should* be getting 3.5mil in defensive DX from my UC-conferred Evasion... plus the ~3mil DX I have trained on my character. In that case, I would have about a 90% DX advantage over the Hal in question, and his effective weapon PTH should be no higher than 20, and yet he hits 5 out of 6 shots in ranged...

Something smells fishy.

Colonel Custard September 2 2008 7:00 PM EDT

three4ths, I just realized that your character is on my fightlist, and that I've only won 88% of my battles against him the last 24 hours. Could we possibly see your Hal's stats?

This is what happened to me:
Hal's shot ricocheted near Freddy Benelli
Hal's Lover's shot ricocheted near Freddy Benelli

Hal overshot Freddy Benelli
Hal's Lover's shot ricocheted near Freddy Bene

Hal hit Freddy Benelli [398024]
Hal's Lover overshot Freddy Benelli

Hal undershot Freddy Benelli
Hal's Lover undershot Freddy Benelli

Hal hit Freddy Benelli [351985]
Hal's Lover's shot went wide of Freddy Benelli

Hal undershot Freddy Benelli

I came out on top that ranged round. Though I eventually lost the battle in melee (can you believe it?). Not to your Hal, mind you. He didn't land any hits in melee. The SG, however, is completely uncalled for. Really, though, I like your strat, 3/4. Nice one. I'm also padding this for spell check, because apparently a certain shotgun manufacturer is not in the dictionary.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 2 2008 7:07 PM EDT

ob thinks that i am showing fights with too little of hits to be of use i believe. since i die i am not sure how to go about getting more hits though?

i also think that this misses the point of a melee hit in general. there perhaps is an issue in ranged, i have no idea...but i do not believe either one of these teams should ever hit in melee and that is why i chose battles where i lost to them with melee hits involved.

let me know how to get more hits in there and i will certainly post those logs as well.

three4thsforsaken September 2 2008 7:12 PM EDT

sure thing Custard ^^

Strength 4,762,656
Dexterity 2,760,960
Armor Class 29
Ranged Base to-Hit 100
Ranged Bonus to-Hit 203

the only stat boosting item is a +19 BoM (which you can see makes quite a bit of difference). It seems that stat boosting items are related to tat level, as opposed to actual str and dex.

Colonel Custard September 2 2008 7:14 PM EDT

Since you die anyway, you could try throwing on a ToE for some extra protection so you last a bit longer, so they can get more hits in. Since the issue is with the presence of hits, and not the damage amount in each, correct? Or some armors that have no DX/skill penalty.

I've fought suqtuqus like 10 more times and it's averaging out that he hits me about 4 times in 6 rounds. So his effective total cth against me is around 66%. That seems like a lot, given that my defensive DX is almost twice his offensive DX. Does anyone know how DX disadvantage on offense scales with DX-based cth? I figure it could be plausible that ~36 is weapon and BoF-granted PTH, and ~30 is DX-based, but I would think exact numbers would better help to determine if there is indeed a problem in ranged.

Sugatus, what is your "Ranged Bonus To-Hit" in post-battle stats equal to?

QBOddBird September 2 2008 7:26 PM EDT

That'd be a good way to do it, LC.


Don't get me wrong, I did not intend for my use of the word 'bias' to be taken with any negative connotation at all: on the contrary, every person in this thread has a bias on the issue; however, the data is biased heavily to one side or the other in both posts.

I would prefer to see MULTIPLE logs showing as many different scenarios as possible, including maximum number of hits by a specific archer and minimum number, as well as an average amount by the particular archer.



I'm simply trying to point out that one post explaining how few times the team is hit, whilst showing an example of being hit very little, in contrast with another attempting to prove the opposite and showing many hits simply confuses the issue.


A better way to have put it would have been to say

MOAR DATA PLOX

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 2 2008 7:51 PM EDT

\Heres some more points to look at

Evasion 8,047,500 4,350,000 246 192 Post battle Evasion is 208

Vs. Toast---

Ranged Combat
Butter takes damage from his own Fireball (183695)!
Butter's Fireball hit Evade Minion [43443], A Slinky [27658], The Enchantments [62254], The Man [41461]
A Slinky absorbs damage [43443]
A Slinky absorbs damage [62254]
A Slinky absorbs damage [41461]
A Slinky regenerated 160,101 HP

Hal's shot ricocheted near Evade Minion
Butter takes damage from his own Fireball (196816)!
Butter's Fireball hit Evade Minion [53732], A Slinky [36054], The Enchantments [45698], The Man [46773]
A Slinky absorbs damage [53732]
A Slinky absorbs damage [45698]
A Slinky absorbs damage [46773]
A Slinky regenerated 167,638 HP

Hal's shot went wide of Evade Minion
Butter takes damage from his own Fireball (209937)!
Butter's Fireball hit Evade Minion [32529], A Slinky [35560], The Enchantments [50975], The Man [32270]
A Slinky absorbs damage [32529]
A Slinky absorbs damage [50975]
A Slinky absorbs damage [32270]
A Slinky regenerated 139,758 HP

Hal shot Evade Minion [219400]
A Slinky absorbs damage [219400]
Butter takes damage from his own Fireball (223058)!
Butter's Fireball hit Evade Minion [47371], A Slinky [48976], The Enchantments [58021], The Man [44053]
A Slinky absorbs damage [47371]
A Slinky absorbs damage [58021]
A Slinky absorbs damage [44053]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

Hal hit Evade Minion [84086]
A Slinky absorbs damage [84086]
Butter takes damage from his own Fireball (236179)!
Butter's Fireball hit Evade Minion [43304], A Slinky [56885], The Enchantments [51885], The Man [60867]
A Slinky absorbs damage [43304]
A Slinky absorbs damage [51885]
A Slinky absorbs damage [60867]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

Hal shot Evade Minion [278898]
A Slinky absorbs damage [278898]
Butter takes damage from his own Fireball (437369)!
Butter's Fireball hit Evade Minion [228046], A Slinky [125308], The Enchantments [168329], The Man [87361]
A Slinky absorbs damage [228046]
A Slinky absorbs damage [168329]
A Slinky absorbs damage [87361]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP



Vs. Death Prophet---

Ranged Combat
Hal's shot flew past Evade Minion
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (171428)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [27872]
A Slinky absorbs damage [27872]
A Slinky regenerated 25,085 HP

Hal hit Evade Minion [220617]
A Slinky absorbs damage [220617]
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (183673)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [37225]
A Slinky absorbs damage [37225]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

Hal overshot Evade Minion
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (195918)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [22541]
A Slinky absorbs damage [22541]
A Slinky regenerated 70,546 HP

Hal overshot Evade Minion
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (208163)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [39445]
A Slinky absorbs damage [39445]
A Slinky regenerated 35,501 HP

Hal's shot ricocheted near Evade Minion
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (220408)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [43873]
A Slinky absorbs damage [43873]
A Slinky regenerated 39,486 HP

Hal hit Evade Minion [137404]
A Slinky absorbs damage [137404]
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (408163)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [54707]
A Slinky absorbs damage [54707]
A Slinky regenerated 172,901 HP

Melee Combat
The Man pulverized Slash with Voice of Reckoning [1875829]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [269197]
Slash's Guardian Angel smote The Man (41368)
The Man pulverized Slash with Voice of Reckoning [963178]
The Man pulverized Slash with Voice of Reckoning [1376571]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
Hal hit Evade Minion [191663]
A Slinky absorbs damage [191663]
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (408163)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [84618]
A Slinky absorbs damage [84618]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP
R.I.P. Slash

The Man pulverized Stash with Voice of Reckoning [1375477]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [269197]
Stash's Guardian Angel smote The Man (42982)
The Man crushed Stash with Voice of Reckoning [1245791]
The Man crushed Stash with Voice of Reckoning [963119]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (408163)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [43959]
A Slinky absorbs damage [43959]
A Slinky regenerated 106,418 HP
R.I.P. Stash

The Man crunched Smash with Voice of Reckoning [1236416]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [247283]
Smash's Guardian Angel smote The Man (41800)
The Man pulverized Smash with Voice of Reckoning [837433]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [21930]
Smash's Guardian Angel smote The Man (12726)
The Man crushed Smash with Voice of Reckoning [868333]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
Hal overshot Evade Minion
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (408163)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [49117]
A Slinky absorbs damage [49117]
A Slinky regenerated 44,206 HP
R.I.P. Smash

The Man crunched Hal with Voice of Reckoning [1155282]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [231056]
Hal's Guardian Angel smote The Man (41362)
The Man pounded Hal with Voice of Reckoning [859732]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [171946]
Hal's Guardian Angel smote The Man (39408)
Splash takes damage from his own Magic Missile (408163)!
Splash's Magic Missile hit The Man [62702]
A Slinky absorbs damage [62702]
A Slinky regenerated 56,432 HP
R.I.P. Splash

The Man crushed Hal with Voice of Reckoning [1240740]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [66242]
Hal's Guardian Angel smote The Man (31257)
The Man crushed Hal with Voice of Reckoning [1088733]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
Hal overshot Evade Minion
R.I.P. Hal


Vs. The Host of Seraphim---

Ranged Combat
The Last Scion overshot Evade Minion

The Last Scion's shot flew past Evade Minion
The Metatron's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (150765)!
The Metatron's familiar's Magic Missile hit The Man [14133]
A Slinky absorbs damage [14133]
The Metatron's shot flew past Evade Minion
A Slinky regenerated 12,720 HP

The Last Scion overshot Evade Minion
The Metatron's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (161534)!
The Metatron's familiar's Magic Missile hit The Man [8537]
A Slinky absorbs damage [8537]
The Metatron's shot ricocheted near Evade Minion
A Slinky regenerated 7,684 HP

The Last Scion hit Evade Minion with A Bow of Burning Gold [280385]
A Slinky absorbs damage [280385]
The Metatron's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (172303)!
The Metatron's familiar's Magic Missile hit The Man [10674]
A Slinky absorbs damage [10674]
The Metatron's shot flew past Evade Minion
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

The Last Scion's shot ricocheted near Evade Minion
The Metatron's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (183072)!
The Metatron's familiar's Magic Missile hit The Man [13622]
A Slinky absorbs damage [13622]
The Metatron overshot Evade Minion
A Slinky regenerated 92,414 HP
R.I.P. The Metatron's familiar

The Last Scion undershot Evade Minion
The Metatron undershot Evade Minion

Melee Combat
The Man crushed The Last Scion with Voice of Reckoning [1396023]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [272832]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
The Last Scion overshot Evade Minion
The Metatron takes damage from his own Decay (199)!
The Metatron's Decay hit Evade Minion for no damage
The Last Scion regenerated 54,566 HP

The Man crushed The Last Scion with Voice of Reckoning [999398]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [4540]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
The Metatron takes damage from his own Decay (160)!
The Metatron's Decay hit Evade Minion for no damage
The Last Scion regenerated 54,566 HP
R.I.P. The Last Scion

The Man crushed The Metatron with Voice of Reckoning [1287738]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [128]
The Man crushed The Metatron with Voice of Reckoning [969359]
The Man pulverized The Metatron with Voice of Reckoning [909523]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
The Metatron takes damage from his own Decay (0)!
The Metatron's Decay hit Evade Minion for no damage
R.I.P. The Metatron


Vs. Single Minion---

Ranged Combat
Hal's shot went wide of Evade Minion
Hal's Lover's shot flew past Evade Minion

Hal's shot ricocheted near Evade Minion
Hal's Lover overshot Evade Minion

Hal shot Evade Minion [214697]
A Slinky absorbs damage [214697]
Hal's Lover undershot Evade Minion
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

Hal shot Evade Minion [111223]
A Slinky absorbs damage [111223]
Hal's Lover overshot Evade Minion
A Slinky regenerated 111,529 HP

Hal undershot Evade Minion
Hal's Lover's shot flew past Evade Minion

Hal's shot flew past Evade Minion
Hal's Lover takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (540932)!
Hal's Lover touches Evade Minion [428313]
A Slinky absorbs damage [428313]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

Melee Combat
The Man pounded Hal with Voice of Reckoning [1950104]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [390020]
Hal undershot Evade Minion
Hal's Lover takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (540932)!
Hal's Lover touches Evade Minion [440511]
A Slinky absorbs damage [440511]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

The Man pounded Hal with Voice of Reckoning [1155601]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [231120]
Hal's Lover takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (540932)!
Hal's Lover touches Evade Minion [593054]
A Slinky absorbs damage [593054]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

The Man's blow was dodged by Hal
Hal's shot flew past Evade Minion
Hal's Lover takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (540932)!
Hal's Lover touches Evade Minion [544345]
A Slinky absorbs damage [544345]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

The Man crunched Hal with Voice of Reckoning [1259485]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [251897]
Hal's Lover takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (540932)!
Hal's Lover touches Evade Minion [512429]
A Slinky absorbs damage [512429]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP

The Man pulverized Hal with Voice of Reckoning [937499]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [72044]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
Hal shot Evade Minion [343701]
A Slinky absorbs damage [343701]
Hal's Lover takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (540932)!
Hal's Lover touches Evade Minion [417458]
A Slinky absorbs damage [417458]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP
R.I.P. Hal

The Man beat Hal's Lover with Voice of Reckoning [883320]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [176664]
The Man crushed Hal's Lover with Voice of Reckoning [999134]
The Man draws strength from his weapon! [191084]
The Man cries "Thats a wrap!!"
Hal's Lover takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (540932)!
Hal's Lover touches Evade Minion [573748]
A Slinky absorbs damage [573748]
A Slinky regenerated 181,800 HP
R.I.P. Hal's Lover


Note... changed Teh=the and Evad'o=evade

Colonel Custard September 2 2008 8:09 PM EDT

three4ths, with 303 PTH and 2.7 mil DX (as listed above) seems to hit me about 1/3 of the time on average (some battles where he hit me 4 times, one battle when he did not hit me at all).

I have 178 minus pth, bringing his weapon down to 125, and I have, by my calculation, 6.5mil defensive DX. So it looks like me having about 2.5 times as much DX as him takes away in the range of 90 cth from him. Or do I have that all wrong?

[RX3]Cotillion September 2 2008 8:53 PM EDT

Post Battle Stats:

Hal:
Strength 3,904,738 - Dexterity 3,904,738

Ranged Base to-Hit 100 - Ranged Bonus to-Hit 177

Junction: 1.00 / 0.81

An Amulet of Invisibility [0] (+10)
A Pair of Black Leather Boots [10] (+22)
Blood [3] (+14)
A Helm of Clearsight [-5] (+6)
A Buckler of Mandos [10] (+21)
A Halidon Familiar lvl 4,339,764

Plus An Amulet of Leadership [0] (+7).

Just thought I'd share in case anyone wanted to know.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 2 2008 10:47 PM EDT

Actually, considering the way evasion is currently working. All of this data on Hal is more or less correct. If you have 2x Hal's dex you will drop Hal's cth to 50%. That means that he will be hitting every other round. The ELB is going to be a very vicious weapon now that evasion and db cannot lower pth below 0.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 2 2008 10:50 PM EDT

one more thing. even after all those penalties the cth on Hal won't go down to 0 anymore it will drop to around 10 or less but it can still get the odd hit now.

QBOddBird September 2 2008 11:34 PM EDT

" Nemerizt 10:47 PM EDT
Actually, considering the way evasion is currently working. All of this data on Hal is more or less correct. If you have 2x Hal's dex you will drop Hal's cth to 50%. That means that he will be hitting every other round. The ELB is going to be a very vicious weapon now that evasion and db cannot lower pth below 0. "


Every other ranged* round. That's 3 times at most.


Then it goes to melee and Hal drops 60% of his DX and PTH, and fires every other round.

Relic September 2 2008 11:55 PM EDT

It's good to see the "overpowered" bandwagon continues to roll on. The Hal is no more overpowered than any other familiar.

QBOddBird September 2 2008 11:57 PM EDT

Indeed.


I'd like to point out to all Evasion users that if the Hal can ordinarily hit triples, and you have it down to periodic singles, you are blocking 66%-100% of its damage for an EXP investment.


Plus it is physical damage, so EC and AC are particularly effective against it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 3 2008 12:05 AM EDT

i can understand all of that somewhat, especially if non-familiars using it also do as well.

what i still fail to understand is that if i am this close to these guys threshold, then with the 60% drop in melee rounds, i really shouldn't be seeing any hits in those rounds. that seems buggy.

as for the rest, if that is working correctly, it does not seem right to me that familiars in the mid range of the game on characters barely over 2m mpr can overwhelm the second highest evasion in the game, super-boosted as we used to say on a single minion 2.8m mpr team with very concentrated xp.

when the shoe was on the other foot, it was unfair and evasion was overpowered...why is this not the case any longer?

QBOddBird September 3 2008 12:08 AM EDT

"what i still fail to understand is that if i am this close to these guys threshold, then with the 60% drop in melee rounds, i really shouldn't be seeing any hits in those rounds. that seems buggy. "


I still agree with this. However, Evasion just had a significant change - if you've got DX, it just became EXP based DBs with a 20% ranged bonus. Otherwise, it just got even weaker.

Relic September 3 2008 12:12 AM EDT

I think the days of Evasion being able to completely nullify physical damage is gone.

three4thsforsaken September 3 2008 12:28 AM EDT

even I have to agree that Hal's PTH seems kind ridiculous right now...
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