SG/EF Maybe still a little overpowered? (in General)


DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 7 2008 9:51 PM EDT

I would love to say that all SG is overpowered but that would more than likely be biased... but i don't like the fact that my .27 Amf vs Nov's EF of DD level 9,624,214 that does about 407k backlash to him while he does hits of up to 1.8 mil damage on average for 8 rounds... My amf is 5 mil levels boosted by a +10 named corn... so i get about 5.9 mil levels out of it... and yet the backlash is only 400k? doesn't sound right to me... How about if the EF/SG is increased by base armor, it also amplifies the Amf damage going to it... by the same percentage?

Its just a little overpowered in my opinion that EF/SG does so much more damage without any drawbacks... now with the ranged/melee damage nerf it is much easier to live all through Ranged to start casting SG so why can't we make it a little harder for the mages to outlive their own Amf backlash damage...

A little testing later and I fought Nov's EF without the Aof boosting its DD... I do a .33 amf against his 6,382,788 level DD and only 341k backlash... with average of 1.2 mil damage round... So I can't figure this out properly... is the Aof boosting the Amf accordingly? or is it just because he is putting out more damage that he takes the 66k damage backlash a round?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 7 2008 9:56 PM EDT

If AMF is going to be the control used for mages it might as well work.

However I find AMF as an offense vile and cheap... but it's the trade off for using a mage.

Familiar only damage teams might need to be destroyed to balance things.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 7 2008 10:09 PM EDT

And this is the fightlog with Nov without his Aof equipped on his Familiar


Play-by-play
Oxcha Conundrum
Teh Enchantments cast Antimagic Field on X-Wing's familiar (0.33)
Evad'o Minion cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (5801)
X-Wing found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
the Force cast Ablative Shield on all friendly Minions (7152236)
Ranged Combat
Teh Man undershot X-Wing's familiar
Luke freaping Skywalker shot Teh Man [11178]
A Slinky looks clumsier!
A Slinky absorbs damage [11178]
A Slinky regenerated 10,061 HP

Teh Man overshot X-Wing's familiar
Luke freaping Skywalker shot Teh Man [7171]
Teh Man looks clumsier!
A Slinky absorbs damage [7171]
A Slinky regenerated 6,454 HP

Teh Man undershot X-Wing's familiar
Luke freaping Skywalker's shot flew past Evad'o Minion

Teh Man hit X-Wing's familiar [144627]
Luke freaping Skywalker absorbs damage [144627]
Luke freaping Skywalker's shot ricocheted near Evad'o Minion

Teh Man hit X-Wing's familiar [162176]
Luke freaping Skywalker absorbs damage [162176]
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!

X-Wing's familiar touches Teh Enchantments [1546277]
Luke freaping Skywalker's shot went wide of Evad'o Minion
R.I.P. Teh Enchantments

Melee Combat
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Evad'o Minion [1100543]
A Slinky absorbs damage [662400]
X-Wing's blow was dodged by Evad'o Minion
Luke freaping Skywalker's shot went wide of Evad'o Minion
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man stumbled swinging at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Evad'o Minion [1272184]
A Slinky absorbs damage [662400]
X-Wing swung wildly at Evad'o Minion
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man swung wildly at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Evad'o Minion [1112879]
A Slinky absorbs damage [662400]
X-Wing mistimed his attack at Evad'o Minion
Luke freaping Skywalker overshot Evad'o Minion
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man pounded X-Wing's familiar with Voice of Reckoning [902706]
Luke freaping Skywalker absorbs damage [902706]
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Evad'o Minion [2193163]
X-Wing bruised A Slinky for no damage
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP
R.I.P. Evad'o Minion

Teh Man's blow was dodged by X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches A Slinky [959117]
X-Wing tapped A Slinky for no damage
Luke freaping Skywalker shot A Slinky [12410]
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man mistimed his attack at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches A Slinky [1167225]
X-Wing tapped A Slinky for no damage
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man fractured X-Wing's familiar with Voice of Reckoning [625064]
Luke freaping Skywalker absorbs damage [625064]
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches A Slinky [1166548]
X-Wing tapped A Slinky for no damage
Luke freaping Skywalker shot A Slinky [14428]
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man's blow was dodged by X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches A Slinky [1517964]
X-Wing bruised Teh Man for no damage
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP
R.I.P. A Slinky

Teh Man stumbled swinging at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Teh Man [692267]
X-Wing bruised Teh Man for no damage
Luke freaping Skywalker hit Teh Man [19654]
Teh Man regenerated 75,000 HP

Teh Man swung wildly at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Teh Man [1219412]
X-Wing bruised Teh Man for no damage
Teh Man regenerated 75,000 HP

Teh Man swung wildly at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341517)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Teh Man [1362042]
Teh Man regenerated 75,000 HP
R.I.P. Teh Man

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 7 2008 10:16 PM EDT

With Aof equipped


Play-by-play
Oxcha Conundrum
Teh Enchantments cast Antimagic Field on X-Wing's familiar (0.27)
Evad'o Minion cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (5801)
X-Wing found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
the Force cast Ablative Shield on all friendly Minions (7152236)
Ranged Combat
Teh Man's shot ricocheted near X-Wing's familiar
Luke freaping Skywalker undershot Teh Man

Teh Man shot X-Wing's familiar [144790]
Luke freaping Skywalker absorbs damage [144790]
Luke freaping Skywalker shot Teh Man [11646]
A Slinky looks clumsier!
A Slinky absorbs damage [11646]
A Slinky regenerated 10,482 HP

Teh Man's shot went wide of X-Wing's familiar
Luke freaping Skywalker hit Teh Man [9195]
Teh Man looks clumsier!
A Slinky absorbs damage [9195]
A Slinky regenerated 8,276 HP

Teh Man's shot flew past X-Wing's familiar
Luke freaping Skywalker's shot went wide of Evad'o Minion

Teh Man overshot X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (407693)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Teh Enchantments [1793285]
Luke freaping Skywalker's shot flew past Evad'o Minion
R.I.P. Teh Enchantments

Melee Combat
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (407693)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Evad'o Minion [2828267]
X-Wing tapped A Slinky for no damage
Luke freaping Skywalker hit A Slinky [15835]
A Slinky regenerated 15,835 HP
R.I.P. Evad'o Minion

Teh Man swung wildly at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (407693)!
X-Wing's familiar touches A Slinky [1948234]
X-Wing bruised A Slinky for no damage
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man's blow was dodged by X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (407693)!
X-Wing's familiar touches A Slinky [1667756]
X-Wing tapped A Slinky for no damage
Luke freaping Skywalker hit A Slinky [15083]
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP

Teh Man beat X-Wing's familiar with Voice of Reckoning [917763]
Luke freaping Skywalker absorbs damage [917763]
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (407693)!
X-Wing's familiar touches A Slinky [2177196]
X-Wing bruised Teh Man for no damage
A Slinky regenerated 137,100 HP
R.I.P. A Slinky

Teh Man swung wildly at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (407693)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Teh Man [1851456]
X-Wing tapped Teh Man for no damage
Luke freaping Skywalker shot Teh Man [13515]
Teh Man regenerated 75,000 HP

Teh Man mistimed his attack at X-Wing's familiar
X-Wing's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (407693)!
X-Wing's familiar touches Teh Man [2123425]
Teh Man regenerated 75,000 HP
R.I.P. Teh Man

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 8 2008 12:08 AM EDT

So how about this... using my team Oxcha vs FTW's 8 mil level SG I have a 5.87 mil amf vs his 8 mil sg that gives me .21 amf and only backlashes him for 339,191... He still hits my minion wich only had 22 bas ac for 3.1 mil hit!!!!! Where is the backlash????

I then went about removing my MS on my enchanter and getting a 6.1 mil amf vs his 8 mil SG which only gave me a .22 amf and only backlashed him for 355,343... and even with a 22% drop he still hits me for 2,567,556 hit on that same no AC minion!!!! Please for the love of Pete... Fix something here.....

Mikel September 8 2008 12:22 AM EDT

yaaaaay now that Draco's in on it, it has a better chance of getting looked at!!

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 8 2008 12:25 AM EDT

I've been on it for a while now.... i just finally became a little more vocal now that Ranger isn't here to do it... Things need a little more balancing and this is one of those....

Little Anthony September 8 2008 12:36 AM EDT

ftw has like 9.6mil SG :D

Conquest September 8 2008 1:13 AM EDT

The damage and lack of backlash is not what stuck to me looking over those logs. You missing EIGHT times and only landing single hits did though. Those battles were between 11-16 rounds. It isn't as if he was 1 shotting each minion.

To me, it seems that his strategy is just a very solid counter to yours. None of his minions and wasted when fighting you and your evasion minion is useless right out of the gate.

AMF has always struck me as more of a way of reaching melee combat when fighting FB and MM users than an "offensive spell". Do you believe that you should be beating him based on the fact that you devoted one minion to AMF?

I think a comparison of SG and CoC would be a more valid argument for a SG nerf rather than a "look at this" post.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 8 2008 1:16 AM EDT

Conquest... those misses had nothing to do with the entire point of this thread... Conundrum is my clanmate... I was using his EF as an example... ohh and you try and hit +273 DB's with any weapon you have... the entire point of this thread has been that there is like nil backlash to SG minions even when they do huge ungodly amounts of damage now...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 8 2008 1:17 AM EDT

*+293

Conquest September 8 2008 2:13 AM EDT

I fully understand the point of the thread and I am well aware that you are in the same clan. I simply find your example flawed. Which was the point of my post.

I understand that you want to compare a big AMF vs. a big EF, but you aren't taking into account all of the other variables such as team composition. A MoD would nearly double your damage against him and the impact of DB's on that fight is (like I said in the previous post) the most profound thing that jumps out at me. I see him vs. you as a very balanced regardless of AMF vs. SG.

If there is a problem with the SG backlash then show it by using an equal level CoC, FB, and MM. And on that note, has anyone tested a big GA against SG? I just don't think people have adapted to the introduction of SG yet. I don't see it as a grossly overpowered spell.

three4thsforsaken September 8 2008 2:21 AM EDT

I agree with conquest. It's hard to use LA as an example because people don't have 10 million trained into AMF.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 8 2008 2:24 AM EDT

Mikel does...

three4thsforsaken September 8 2008 2:43 AM EDT

well shouldn't we use that to compare SG effect? I'm curious what'll it'll do. How much should we expect? Should we compare it to CoC?

Conquest September 8 2008 2:50 AM EDT

And is SG itself truly overpowered. Doesn't Novice junction a huge set of Nolds? Since we are looking directly at AMF here. And yes I do believe that comparing the backlash to other forms of magic is the correct way of analyzing it. Not to mention are there SG teams out there fighting much higher than they should be? I don't think there are. In the end I am not disagreeing with you Draco, I just want more anecdotal evidence.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 8 2008 3:27 AM EDT

I posted this ages ago.

When something becomes the best choice, in every situation, even if you don't want to call it overpowered, it's still broken.

When it's better to choose SG over FB, MM and CoC, somethings wrong.

Not only that, but due to the nature of it's low (ish) base damage, which then gets boosted, and the fact AMF backlash is based on it's pre boost damage, it has in effect a built in NSC AMF Backlash reduction. Where it will always take less backlash damage than an equal sized CoC, but usually pump out more damage per round.

Does that seem right to anyone?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 8 2008 3:42 AM EDT

And how long have you been playing in the top Conquest? When there is almost no way to take on one spell without altering your entire team just to combat it then there is something amiss...

Not to mention that I have been talking about a change to Sg and Exbow and fancy that... you use both... And I haven't been the only one talking about all of this... it has been said many times in many different ways by many different people... and this changemonth has changed everything else around so lets make it even again... I am just very vocal about it now cause there really isn't much of anyone else to be vocal left... Everyone is dying out and quitting... and I'm not far behind...

The entire idea is I had the largest Amf pre Koy purchase... and my amf is still 6.1 mil and it does a pittance amount of backlash damage to most Sg users not to mention with the way all damage was nerfed by a lot and melee damage was nerfed by 4/9ths how is any tank supposed to keep up with the damage potential of some of the SG or EF out there? I barely do 1/3rd of the damage in on round that these SG/EF do in the same round and thats on a lucky day.... So are we all supposed to go SG/EF and just nuke each other in the 4 rounds it takes to kill a minion a piece (5 if you use Ef)? That sounds very boring to me.

three4thsforsaken September 8 2008 3:51 AM EDT

I actually don't. I'm seriously, yes I do use SG, but I am trying very very hard to be unbias. I wouldn't mind retraining everything to CoC, but retraining is annoying.

Yes, I think AMF damage shouldn't increase proportional to SG boost to armor. Why should it be a penalty, to get a boost? Double the AC = double the damage = double the retribution? Doubling a DD against AMF doesn't even do that. AMF scales weird, so how would we treat it? Should we treat the AMF as if we double the DD? I mean i think it's fair.

If anything is going to get nerfed it's the level to effect ratio, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Yet. I mostly say that because everyone points as LA, which has a monster of a SG. But is LA a really good example of other SG users out there? I mean in most of my NCB, people have much more AMF than I have SG, it didn't seem broken then. Is it better than CoC? I'm not so sure. CoC has it perks, for example it can take out more than one minion if it is big enough. It hit everyone, even damage dealers, remember the point of fighting isn't to simply survive, but to survive longer then their principle damage dealer.

SG lets me deal decent damage to one guy from front to back, that's the thing I like though, but no one seems to complaining about that. It catches many teams by surprise and is very difficult to change current set ups around.

lostling September 8 2008 4:16 AM EDT

pretty much everyone knows my views on SG....

but noooo.... its perfect the way it is

Cube September 8 2008 4:24 AM EDT

The problem is it does good concentrated damage AND cuts through armor, AND the cutting through armor means they take less Amf damage per damage they deal.

Think of it as a VB with the damage of a BoNE.

three4thsforsaken September 8 2008 4:49 AM EDT

It's more like it does big damage, and does more big damage with big armor with not extra retaliation.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 8 2008 4:53 AM EDT

"Double the AC = double the damage = double the retribution? Doubling a DD against AMF doesn't even do that"

AMF backlash is based on Damage done (well total potential damage). Double the amount of potential damage your DD can do, and you double the backlash you will receive.

Unless you use SG, and get that doubled damage from hitting 100 base AC, in which case your backlash doens't increase.

SG does too much damage versus small AC to warrant it's current niche.

It would have to be far worse versus low AC, ramping up to better than CoC versus very high AC to make it balanced.

There really is no reason to use CoC over SG.

three4thsforsaken September 8 2008 5:02 AM EDT

Well, my point was that AMF isn't linear.

So lets say I have 100 levels of MM and 25 levels of AMF

that doesn't mean I have a 0.25 effect because AMF isn't linear. If I double the same MM it by no means double the retribution damage.

So if that was the case for SG wouldn't that be a huge detriment?

I mean it kinda looks like SG has the edge over CoC in every way but unless the SG is big and can one hit people you want to target, CoC seems like the better choice. Easier said than done for teams that don't have top mpr.

Obscurans September 8 2008 5:10 AM EDT

No, but AMF effect is linear, 2x effect % should theoretically do double backlash damage. And, same effect %, double possible damage should give out double backlash damage. Second thing doesn't happen with the SG armor boost is the gripe here I suppose.

Sacredpeanut September 8 2008 7:21 AM EDT

When FB/MM/CoC damage is reduced by RoBF/Armor etc, AMF backlash isn't adjusted down to compensate so I don't see why AMF backlash should increase when the reverse occurs.

If SG is overpowered (I have no strong opinion either way), then IMO a nerf should come in the form of an overall damage reduction or a reduction in the damage bonus per point of base AC.

My issue at the moment is the AoF. Frankly a 45% increase in damage is far too high for a single piece of armor IMO, especially when the drawback (it increases enemy AMF), is not particularly effective. Just look at the example in the original post - when novice's AoF is equipped, draco's AMF effect is actually reduced from .33 to .27.

IMO either the 3% per + to familiar DD needs to be reduced or their needs to be a real drawback to using the item (possibly in the form of increased AMF susceptibility).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2008 8:14 AM EDT

"(possibly in the form of increased AMF susceptibility)"

i like that idea.

Conquest September 8 2008 3:33 PM EDT

"And how long have you been playing in the top Conquest? When there is almost no way to take on one spell without altering your entire team just to combat it then there is something amiss..."

Not to mention that I have been talking about a change to Sg and Exbow and fancy that... you use both... And I haven't been the only one talking about all of this... it has been said many times in many different ways by many different people... and this changemonth has changed everything else around so lets make it even again... I am just very vocal about it now cause there really isn't much of anyone else to be vocal left... Everyone is dying out and quitting... and I'm not far behind..."

If your entire argument revolves around me not being in the top 5 and currently using SG + an exbow then I'm sorry you have no ground to stand on. I love you top 5 elitists who think your investment of USD and high MPR make you instantly correct!

For starters my exbow is not big enough to matter and this thread isn't about the exbow so you don't even know my thoughts on it. Please refrain from making assumptions simply based on the fact that you are frustrated. It makes you look stupid.

Secondly I specifically said that I am NOT disagreeing with you. If you took the time to read my post then you would quite clearly see my point. Test it correctly by comparing it to other forms of magic damage. How does it go... correlation does not equal causation? Your entire argument is that you've trained AMF to X amount and you think it should be dealing more backlash, however that does not mean the spell is overpowered.

You are taking 1/4 of your total team and applying it to an entire fight. I don't need a PHD in CB to know that you could quite easily beat on SG teams. If you've pigeon holed your strategy into losing to a handful of teams then you are doing quite well by my book. If you simply switched to a MoD you would be able to beat him with his current minion order. If he switches the EF back further then I believe that NWO would be beating him. And that is the beauty of CB... no one strategy beats all.

If you aren't willing to test it then please refrain from argumentative posts. He junctions +18 nolds to his familiar and massive DB's, has a 7 million AS, backs his familiar with a PL minion, and you aren't using a MoD. The lack of AMF backlash is not indicative of anything. So take the time to view the entire picture and not just a tiny portion of it.

Conquest September 8 2008 3:35 PM EDT

And an even better question to ask: Is the spell overpowered or are the items overpowering the spell?
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002XNK">SG/EF Maybe still a little overpowered?</a>