New Minion Costs (in General)
September 8 2008 3:29 PM EDT
Here is the cost for my next minion, let's do some math and play with some numbers for a minute...
Enlist for $43,964,437
EXP from New Minion: 14,654,812
Current VPR: 3,175,030
EXP post New Hire: 192,036,408 + 14,654,812 = 206,691,220
New VPR: 3,367,414
Gain of 192,384 MPR for $43,964,437 for a cost of $229 CB2 per MPR point.
If we use the same equation to see how much my current 3,000,003 MPR should be valued at we see:
229 * 3,000,003 = 687,000,687 CB2
Now I understand the cost should be higher than the current rate of character sales, but come on, this is silly.
an extra kill slot or three....priceless!
I'd rather be able to make strategic choices based on when I felt it necessary, not when I could afford it...
September 8 2008 4:20 PM EDT
With the prices so high, most people would rather buy someone else's character than continue with their own.
September 8 2008 4:21 PM EDT
If you think thats bad, I have to pay 63 million to get my 2nd minion...
September 8 2008 4:43 PM EDT
i paid good money for mine :P
It is satisfying to achieve the outstanding result with beef up MPR :P
September 8 2008 4:53 PM EDT
I've always wanted a more economically-friendly way to get additional minions, especially at higher MPRs. I'm only at 500k right now and the 4mil I need to get a third minion is already enough to make me cry. I'd imagine once it's 43mil that you're basically locked in to your strategy at that point...
September 8 2008 4:56 PM EDT
i paid about 150mil cb2 for 3 minions.
Congratulations. You have a fat wallet eye are elle.
September 8 2008 5:06 PM EDT
Well, everyone would kill for exp concentration in one minion up top, if people are still paying that price then it's worth that much to some people.
Isn't the whole point of a familiar experience concentration? As well as the ToA.
$5,299,798,055 total liquid assets
It's not overpriced, see? There's at least 3 times enough money in existance!
why should hiring a minion be at all easy? We are lucky that this game even allows for the ability to change the amount of minions, let alone change them with a large boost to mpr.
If someone really wanted another minion at 3 million MPR, perhaps they should've gotten one a bit earlier. But no, people instead gain a whole ton of MPR then hire to get a exp distribution advantage and a mpr boost, then complain that the price is too high. Remember that what we are doing is an exploit, not a feature.
September 8 2008 6:25 PM EDT
>>Remember that what we are doing is an exploit, not a feature.
Uh, it's definitely a feature. ;)
I'd be much happier with the 2 current costs along with a 100 CBD fee (or free because that's just absurdly low) for a minion with no experience whatsoever. Maybe that's just me, though. Maybe hike the cost up a bit based on MPR but geez, I don't want to pay 4 mil for my next Enchanter just because of changemonth.
Are you saying that Jon's intention of hiring minions, was to allow people to get a large MPR boost after growing an huge single minion so they can make a run for the top mpr? Or was his intention to allow people to have the option of adding minions so they aren't "stuck". I own one of the larger single minions and the game and currently the cost of hiring is either 55 million or 22 million. I don't see how 22 million isn't a bad price for a complete boost to my strat.
Sure, if you want lets implement the ability to hire a kill slot for free. I assure you, that is very abuseable... defensive hiring anyone? If I had the option of just getting 3 kill slots whenever I want to, do you know how much stronger my team would be?
September 8 2008 6:38 PM EDT
Cheap minion hire prices also means that even more people will run SFBM than run them now because then it will be a necessity to get the xp concentration. Right now you have a reason to run a team with more minions starting from down low.
September 8 2008 6:45 PM EDT
I paid about 15mil for my enchanter at around 1mil mpr. That was stupidly high but I needed it so I did it.
Now my strat is ruined and my entire team is hardly worth 15mil.
So i guess the NCB will be the only option if you want to have a versatile strat without investing millions into minions.
that is the main reason I buy my minions early on, but it resolves in diluted exp for the main damage dealer, making any strategy totally worthless.
worthless? That's being quite harsh. There are familiars, there are AS and GA teams. They might not be quite the way you want them, but they are far from worthless
Perhaps 'strategically bankrupt' would be a better description than 'worthless'.
With one or two large minions, you have plenty of options. You can use a large minion as your damage dealer, or create a super-support minion (like Mikel has) like a very, very large PL sink. With diluted experience, you can't have a huge offense; a mage would be decimated by AMF (without NSC, of course) and would not do very much damage, especially with FB eventually killing your team. A small tank might be possible, maybe a bit more with a ToA, but good luck managing to hit for enough damage to win with your (relatively) tiny ENC limit. The only other options are familiars, which take away ALL your other tattoo options, and may as well force you to train Junction on a minion.
There just aren't as many options for 'balanced' teams, at least from what I can see.
God Of Fire
September 16 2008 6:13 PM EDT
How about a very cheap option that hires a minion with little to no xp on it?
September 16 2008 6:27 PM EDT
That's part of the problem- exp-less minions will still act as kill-slots.
How about the option to add exp-less minions, but remove the ability to fire them? I don't even get why there's an option to fire minions anyways.
Now that is genius Borgin... That way if you hire exp less minions you forgo the chance to up your mpr with buying the most expensive minions
Or just attach a small cost to exp-less minions like, say, 100k.
There's an option to fire minions for teams that aren't established (mostly NUBs) who may or may not know which direction they want their character to go in.
September 16 2008 6:33 PM EDT
>>Or just attach a small cost to exp-less minions like, say, 100k.
Heck, I think most of us would be willing to pay $(MPR) for an exp-less minion. But seriously, 45mil for a new minion?
45 million? You don't have to choose the expensive option. If it cost that much you need to ask yourself why you are hiring so late.
Isn't the cost of a new minion proportional to the size of your largest minion. So the only people with unreasonable prices is the single minions right?
"Isn't the cost of a new minion proportional to the size of your largest minion. So the only people with unreasonable prices is the single minions right?"
we are just ahead of the curve, it will be more of a problem for everyone else as the game progresses. remember as the number one grows so grows all the n*b's that come after.
the power of concentrated XP is only balanced by new minion cost...
September 16 2008 9:09 PM EDT
>>the power of concentrated XP is only balanced by new minion cost...
I disagree. The current system forces you to figure out your team before 1mil MPR, tops- and that's if you have plenty of cash lying around. My "cheap minion" is still 2.4mil (and I'm only at 700k MPR), and that's way more than I can afford. By the time I make the money to buy my next minion, it'll cost over 3mil. A 4th minion is virtually out of the question without a loan or selling a bunch of stuff.
I would strongly support the elimination of the option to fire minions and the ability to hire experience-free minions. Adding a minion with absolutely no experience would actually hinder most teams, so I can't imagine there would be any problems with this system. If you can see any, let me know, and we can try to find some system where you don't have to spend USD just to recruit another minion. ;)
"the power of concentrated XP is only balanced by new minion cost..."
perhaps you meant the power of kill slots?
September 16 2008 9:35 PM EDT
I agree with novice. XP concentration has a value, that you can pay for if you want to. The only reason to use a familiar is because of the xp concentration.
Almost everyone has to choose their team size before 1 mil mpr or so, you aren't missing out; anyone that has the cbd to spend on xp concentration spent some serious cash.
How many more SFBM NCB do you want to see? I see so many threads complaining about SFBM being a requirement, but then everyone asks for them to be buffed? Make up your mind.
September 16 2008 9:35 PM EDT
hey dudemus i wanna by a kill slot
minion cost 32 mil it will be all dispel magic
is it a good idea
Not worth it on a char that hasn't even broke 2 mil mpr... save the cash and buy a bigger char when someone sells... or start a good NCB run ^_^
September 16 2008 9:39 PM EDT
Maybe buy the smaller minion?
September 16 2008 9:45 PM EDT
I don't get it. Are kill slots really that OP? Considering most teams have spread damage (or are single-minion and can kill you in just a few hits), turning a 3mil MPR tank into a 4-minion team that's 3 20 HP minions is actually harmful, not helpful.
Am I that delusional? Because I want 2 more minions, but I don't have the RoE to get the EXP spread I wanted, so I had to just stick with 2 until now.
Apparently I am a noob. :(
A damage dealer can only get so much stronger (especially a tank, with non-linear increases in damage from ST, and let's just say that 10m DX is usually a lot of wasted XP) before you can't do anything more. You practically *need* to have minions that can take damage so you can last longer, or provide you with spells or skills your damage dealer may not be able to have (a wall with SS, PL sink, AMF/EC, etc.).
September 16 2008 10:00 PM EDT
I realize there's a point where more stats is just overkill, but how would 3 20 HP minions really help? It'd mean 3 more rounds in a mirror image match, but what about vs multiple damage source teams, especially FB/CoC/SoD? Maybe there's something I'm not understanding, I guess.
Let's just chalk it up to the fact that I'm crazy.
Well, when you have a gigantic single minion the ability to survive one or two extra rounds is gigantic, since you have concentrated xp, you have the luxury of having anywhere from 5- 10 million levels in a DD. Since damage is no longer an issue all you need to do is survive. And all you need to survive to survive for is 7 to 10 rounds. 3 kill slots makes 10 rounds much much easier. Have a little AS and boom, you're home free, and if anything you are free from decay. And if anything it'll help spread damage from those spread fire
September 16 2008 11:18 PM EDT
Kill slots are pretty powerful when PL can keep a 20-HP minion alive even when you barrage that minion with several hundred thousand points of damage.
September 16 2008 11:23 PM EDT
>>Kill slots are pretty powerful when PL can keep a 20-HP minion alive even when you barrage that minion with several hundred thousand points of damage.
But if you just hired him, what would be the point of keeping him alive...?
I get that a 20 HP minion can sit there and take a hit. But... so what? What am I not understanding?
I am talking about a 20 HP minion with no experience invested anywhere, by the way. This isn't a 20 HP minion with 3mil ST and a 0.75 BL or anything.
I'm not trying to be stubborn or anything. I really don't understand, is all.
September 16 2008 11:25 PM EDT
It was useful to keep them alive with PL when the ToE worked how it did, but now it just means you have to train a little less PL versus spread damage teams, or if you have say an RoBF on them.
September 16 2008 11:32 PM EDT
Ah, now I understand. But with the ToE change, what other benefits would these "sitting ducks" have, besides the obvious "given time you'll have another real minion"? This is what I want, anyways. I don't like shelling out 6mil for a minion. Bad feature.
actually Sut, that's confusing me too.
Anyway, I believe that any SFBM would benefit greatly from hiring killslots. I know my strat would work great with 20 hp kill slots, it'll give me a 60% boost to AS given HP. I'll survive a few rounds longer, I'll probably reink my Hal to an RoS and train a base GA on a minion then slap it on. I like this! Or better yet turn my single minion into 15 million levels of AS and get a EF!
Just one of many ways to love it :)
September 17 2008 7:22 AM EDT
"Sure, if you want lets implement the ability to hire a kill slot for free. I assure you, that is very abuseable... defensive hiring anyone? If I had the option of just getting 3 kill slots whenever I want to, do you know how much stronger my team would be? "
How about a third hiring option then... ZERO XP, cost equal to MPR in CB$.
September 17 2008 7:32 AM EDT
Whoops, sorry, seems I somehow missed half a page of replies :(
Anyway, wasn't the main issue so far the MPR boost and defensive hiring ?
Not like you can dismiss them afterwards for no ill effect, and it's cost-prohibitive to do so on a regular basis...
Also, what's the big difference between hiring minions at 11% XP and hiring them at 0 XP and fighting 11+% longer ?
Same XP distribution, but less cost, and no MPR jumps.
"But if you just hired him, what would be the point of keeping him alive...?
I get that a 20 HP minion can sit there and take a hit. But... so what? What am I not understanding?"
Stick them at the front to foil Decay.
Use them to hold a Tattoo, preferably with an aura, so you can use a TSA on your 'main'.
Use them to waste 1, 2, 3 Ranged rounds (without PL) where an archer/MM Mage kills a 20 HP nothing, leaving them with only 5-6 rounds left to actually kill the 'meat' of your team.
Wack a AoI and BoF on a 20 HP slot and stick them in the front to give your main the benefits of 'leadership'. Or an AoL if you don't care about getting them smacked up first (if you're a Ranged quick kill team).
And this is just off the top of my head. ;)
September 17 2008 9:43 AM EDT
It's not the slot that matters, it is the fact that it can be kept alive, giving the rest of the team time to fight.
In other words, a kill slot that can be kept alive via the existing, larger minions becomes a de facto Wall.
Example: Start with two minions, and grow them like crazy.
At the end of bonus time, change one minion into a full-on PL battery and the other one into pure offense (doesn't really matter what kind). You can fuel the PL with AS or native HP, depending on what kind of teams you want to be able to beat.
You then buy two more 20-hp minions, stick one in front and one in back. PL can keep them alive, which keeps them either protecting the team (it's a love sandwich!) or continuing to dilute spread-fire offenses (FB, SoD, CoC).
That sounds pretty powerful to me, or at least it is something that shouldn't be dismissed out of hand...
...and it could all be entirely dismissed if PL could not keep the 20-HP minions alive.
September 17 2008 9:53 AM EDT
Well I demand an option that doesn't require USD investment to actually get a third minion.
September 17 2008 9:59 AM EDT
A demand which you are absolutely able to make. Just not sure about the results. *smile*
I like the idea of a 0 EXP minion hire. Charge a meaningful fee, like 100K, so they don't just buy them for defense then fire them when running offense. The main cost of the minion will be the experience dilution so folks are not going to do it unless it helps their strat.
September 17 2008 12:35 PM EDT
>>A demand which you are absolutely able to make. Just not sure about the results. *smile*
I am aware that the results are likely less than favorable. ;)
"Anyway, I believe that any SFBM would benefit greatly from hiring killslots."
So that they can kill off their own team as soon as they get to melee? I get that they could be 3 enchanters who have served their purpose by the end of the first round, but if they were 3 0-XP minions, their enchantments would be level 0.
Personally, I paid 53 mil (I believe it was) for my second minion on my last character. I bought when I was around 2.3mil MPR, I believe. I did give me 500k extra MPR, and it did give me 1.6 levels in AMF, and, overall, it was helpful to my strategy. It was not worth 53mil, though.
Maybe a master strategist could make 1.6 levels of some stat be worth $53 mil, but I doubt even that. Long story short, I regret hiring my second minion. I don't feel that my team failed, but my team never got much stronger in the three months before I sold it. And when I sold it, the whole team only went for half the price of that second minion.
the kill slots are invaluable with the (often lambasted) power of shocking grasp...
maybe the real moral of the story is don't hire past 2 million MPR? Or at least don't hire with expensive option?
September 17 2008 6:22 PM EDT
It's never worth it to buy the expensive option if you still have an NCB, because you could spend the extra money on NCB BA and get more MPR from that.
September 17 2008 6:24 PM EDT
The other problem is that this would almost make staying a single minion for a long time a requirement, almost every strategy benefits from concentrated XP.
September 17 2008 7:12 PM EDT
How much smaller is the cheaper minion?
September 17 2008 7:14 PM EDT
Proportionally less exp (/2.5? /3?).
larger minion is the cash amount divided by 3 = the experience amount you get...
Smaller minion is the cash amount divided by 5 = the experience you get.
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