Request for slight adjustment (in General)

Zaekyr September 11 2008 5:14 PM EDT

Could we please get a change in ELB and MgsK BTH.I think it would be wise considering there is absolutely no need to raise the + on these weapons anymore.I think we will very shortly see x4000 +0 on them which seems unfair more for the point of WA changes being based on + of weapons now.Giving them the ability to get better rewards on top of killing in ranged.

It doesn't have to be a large adjustment.Perhaps ELB 90% and MgsK 80%.Although I would prefer 80/70.Even with an adjustment to BTH some might opt for raising x for one shot kills.I understand there are fewer ranged rounds and that they do less damage now but it seems ranged has too much advantage over melee now.

I use both bows to a limited extant so I would actually lose out myself.But this is also part of the reason I mention this.I have been looking at my teams weapons and wondering why I would bother raising the x on anything but my bows and leave my melee weapons to "mop up".And yes I do use evasion even has a bonus to ranged rounds but cannot lower CTH below base without a very large dex advantage.

Don't get me wrong I really like the evasion change,I just don't see the point of a weapon that needs no + to increase its effectiveness.

Then again,maybe I am wrong and I should just go ahead and raise the x on my bows and see how it works.

three4thsforsaken September 11 2008 5:26 PM EDT

double the hits, double the damage

how does PTH doesn't affect effectiveness?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 11 2008 5:32 PM EDT

no, why?

Elb can't be forged MSK can.

And the elb and MSK have different upgrade curves compared to the big four and VB.

and why is MSK not in the dictionary???

Man I'm now almost at the point I have to do HTML again.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] September 11 2008 6:15 PM EDT

three4ths: presumably, bow damage is high enough that you only need one hit per round. If you do two hits in one round, they will both hit the same opponent, which doesn't help if the first hit already killed them. Assuming one hit kills each minion, then maximum efficiency is reached at 1 hit per round, which you now get automatically with ELB, unless you're at a severe DX disadvantage. If it takes more than one hit to kill a minion, you then either have the option of doubling your damage by upping ST and weapon x, or of getting yourself another 100 PTH above whatever Evasion and DBs you opponents are wearing. You tell me what the cheaper option is.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2008 7:15 PM EDT

Not trianing PTH has three benefits;

1: Your weapon no longer increases your PR.
2: All your NW can be plowed into your 'x'. Who cares if you only hit once, if you hit for twice the amount you would normally. Oh and 'x' has a linear cost.
3: You make your opponents investment into Evasion or DBs worthless as they no longer do *anything* to you.

Win/Win/Win on all counts.

That's why I don't like it, and back some sort of change.

Lord Bob September 11 2008 7:20 PM EDT

I agree with GL.

Obscurans September 11 2008 7:45 PM EDT

Except damage goes as square root of x, so you need 4x CB$ for double damage.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2008 9:19 PM EDT

regardless of that, the cost is still linear.

i too agree with gl. it wasn't fair when evasion kept people from ever hitting so why exactly is it fair for them to always hit?

Sickone September 11 2008 11:59 PM EDT

Well, if you don't upgrade the weapon plus at all, then somebody who used to train evasion can dump it all back into dexterity and you're back to a "never hit this guy" scenario again...

All that's been changed is the distribution of evasion vs dexterity.
You ONLY used to need evasion, now you need both evasion (to counter the enemy weapon plus, if any), afterwards you ALSO need a DX advantage to drop CTH down, and if you top it all with an AoI (instead of an AoF like before to boost evasion) it's even easier (i.e. need less of a DX advantage for 0% final chance to hit).

Just because people haven't adjusted their "evade physical damage" walls yet from "all evasion, elven gear and AoF" to "some evasion, some DX, elven gear and AoI" doesn't mean they never will... or, you know, add a large EC instead of AMF/DM ?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 12 2008 12:02 AM EDT

but adding both Evasion and EC is redundant... all you need is the EC to drop folks down to 0 hits or 50 hits for 0 damage.

Sickone September 12 2008 12:03 AM EDT

Of course, the drawback of the AoI is that you have to have all minions wear an AoI (easy for single minions, not so easy for multi-minion teams), otherwise your "evasion wall" won't be the one who attracts physical damage... and if your enemy uses a mageseeker, you're in trouble with a "magic damage only" team.

IMHO, all in all, it's rather balanced.
It just takes time for people to stop complaining and redo their strategy (as most wait for the end of changemonth to switch to different types of gear).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2008 12:08 AM EDT

from the changelog:

Evasion can reduce to-hit down to the base for the weapon (was, briefly, down to base + dx bonus).

so are you guys saying that if you have enough dex evasion can do more and reduce it further? from the way i read it, i took it to mean that even if you get evasion back up to its previous 100 percent level by using dex, then it can still only reduce down to the weapon base.

Sickone September 12 2008 12:11 AM EDT

"but adding both Evasion and EC is redundant"

Not quite.

If you only have EC, best you can do is reduce enemy chance to hit to whatever the weapon plus is (i.e. an enemy with negative DX and a +100 weapon will still hit you once per round).

If you only have evasion but no DX advantage, at best you can hope to reduce the enemy to his weapon base chance to hit, then a further 20% if you have an AoI (so, in case of an ELB, down to 100% via evasion only, regardless of enemy DX and weapon plus, provided you have a huge veasion effect... then down to 80% from the AoI).

In order to NOT get hit at all you need to have a big DX advantage (via high DX on your minion and/or reducing enemy minion DX via EC) AND you need to (just barely) match the enemy weapon plus with your evasion effect value.

Sickone September 12 2008 12:13 AM EDT

Hmm... dudemus has a point... I was assuming that what I just wrote is correct (DX advantage plus enough evasion equals no hits), but now that I think about it, it MIGHT be the other way around (still only down to base chance to hit).

It would depend on what order Jon chose to apply the "bottom capping" from evasion effect.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2008 12:15 AM EDT

my evasion is trained, with bonuses at 250 effect, however my post battle stats after the 60 percent bonus shows 211. i was under the impression that the training dex would give me the 250 effect, but the weapons still hit a their base regardless.

it was with this understanding, correct or not, that i think some weapons still need adjustments. if i am wrong then i would have to rethink my stance as well.

Sickone September 12 2008 12:18 AM EDT

Now you made me curious... how could we test that in a non-expensive fashion ?
Dang, where's a tournament when you need one...

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] September 12 2008 12:35 AM EDT

"Except damage goes as square root of x, so you need 4x CB$ for double damage."

Say I have a weapon upgraded to x1000 +100. In order to double the damage, I could either up it to x4000, or up it to +200 (disregarding Evasion, assuming this would make it hit twice per round instead of once). For the Big 5 weapons, adding 3000 xs would cost 3000*7820 = 23.46mil. The wiki does not have stats for what +200 on a Big Five would cost, but it does indicate that taking a BoNE from +100 to +157 would cost almost 32mil. At that rate, it would probably be cheaper to up the weapon to x7000 than to take it to +200.

So + has a linear effect and an exponential cost. x has a linear cost and an exponential(ly decaying) effect. At some point, it would be more economical to up your weapon 100 +s rather than multiply the xs by 4, but in that case it would only be equally effective if your previous PTH were equal to your opponents' minus-PTH.

In order words, a guaranteed hit against everyone with double damage is better in every scenario. An extra 100 weapon PTH is only better if it actually gives you a second hit, which it won't against opponents who have Evasion/DBs with an effect higher than that.

(50) Evasion is really easy to get. So, with this new change, having (+0) or (+50) on your weapon doesn't change your chances of hitting one bit against anyone who trains Evasion half-seriously. In that sense, the cost of each actual point of PTH is more expensive, because every point from 0 on up to your opponent's Evasion effect is essentially just bringing you up to neutral ground, from whence you can then make gains in chance-to-hit (and, against some opponents, that means you're paying 900k a point before it actually increases your chance at all).

I hope I made my idea clear, here.

Zaekyr September 12 2008 3:45 AM EDT

Many of you aren't getting the point I made.Jon has said that the only way to reduce weapon BTH is with a dexterity higher than attacker.As this is the case the only way to reduce the PTH of ELB or MgsK is to exceed the attackers dexterity.I do not know how much more you need to have but I do understand that it is a lot.Probably have to have 50% more dexterity than attacker just to reduce CTH by 20 or so.Now looking at the 100% and 99% BTH of ELB and MgsK respectivly.You can easily see that they will almost always hit(except for very high difference in MPR).Any reductions via evasion or DB's only reduces the chances of multiple hits.Therefore why up the + ever if you can just increase x and get one hit kills.Not even mentioning the reduced PR from not having to have + on the weapon.Just look at the other side and say the attacker wants all of his targets to be 100% challenge bonus so he ups the + to 20 or so and gets it.I may be wrong about the PTH formula but it probably isn't too far off.Lastly,once again remember Jon has said that neither evasion or DB's can reduce CTH below base(100% for ELB and 99% for MgsK).He did mention that the AoI can reduce BTH but the AoI is only 10 and you would still have to have evasion/DB's and/or dex advantage to reduce any other +'s.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 12 2008 3:57 AM EDT

AoI reduces base chance to hit by 20... not 10

Zaekyr September 12 2008 4:47 AM EDT

Oooops my bad.So the AoI reduces by 20......still have to have equal dex or enough evasion or DB's to reduce dexterity CTH to get that reduction for the AoI wearing minion.

I still don't think the ELB or MgsK should get that high of a BTH.Sure make it high so they can hit.I would just like to see the chance for a miss to help keep one hit killing to a minimum.

If a ELB/MgsK user has a chance to miss then he will have to raise the + on his weapon to insure he hits which will lower his PR and intrude upon encumbrance.

If the 100%/99% BTH is kept,an archer will have no need to put + on his weapon leaving him to focus his encumbrance on x and no doubt toward one hit kills.Unless everyone above him equips AoI on a minion with a lot of dex and evasion trained.And even then they will only reduce it to 80%/79%.And since it will be the last minion hit how will it kill the archer off?

Zaekyr September 12 2008 5:21 AM EDT

It's ok though I just rented a 18mil NW bow to do some testing.My current bow is 5.8 mil NW and I'll equip it on an 18 dex minion to see how it goes.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2008 5:43 AM EDT

Non Tanks never used to train Dex for a reason (bar my CB1 Kenneth Irons that is!). They're not gonna ditch Evasion to train Dex now.

What Evasion had over Dexterity for non Tanks is that it gave you more bang for your XP buck than natural Dex did.

Training natural Dex on a non Tank is wasting XP. You don't get enough defense, and you ignore the inbuilt offense of Dex, as you don't use a weapon.

Evasion made it worthwhile training, and now is a little better still than natural Dex. As it can still take PTH and some CTH. For a fixed cost, without needing to get into the game of continuously comparing your Stat to your opponents.

But that's all moot, if as posted above, Tanks just ignore your Evasion anyway and ditch thier + for more X and safely know they're gona hit you each and every round anyway.

No non Tank is going to train Dexterity. I'm sure someone will now just to prove me wrong. :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2008 5:49 AM EDT

(Ignoring the AoI for the moment, the foils of using it to reduce BCTH on multi minion teams has been mentioed above)

At equal Dexterity, a Tank gets thier Base Chance To Hit each round. This is now the minimum that Evasion/DB can reduce hits to.

So, if you face an ELBow archer, unless you can train *more* Dexterity than the Tank, he will be hitting you 100% of the time every round. Regardless.

How many non Tanks can spare the XP to Train Dex, which up until your equal your opponents investment into thier Dex, does aboslutly nothing for you at all?

And that's the problem. Unil you've sunk and exual amount of XP (depending on +DEx gears...) into Dex as your opponents, it's wasted and does nothing of use on your team.

While for Tanks it's always good, and now thier Wepaons will add no PR! WooT!

Sickone September 12 2008 7:32 AM EDT

Personally, I'd rather see weapon plus be an offensive DX multiplier, and evasion be a defensive DX multiplier... and rescaling the chances to hit slightly (and caps, maybe, say, 500% max and 5% minimum).
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