Halidon vs. SF (in General)


QBsutekh137 September 12 2008 10:13 AM EDT

I changed my tattoo to a Halidon to see how my fight list would fare. Granted, I did not put BGs on the junctioned familiar, so he could have been doing more damage, but I still think the SF has the edge.

I lost Dixie Cousins, Iconics 3e, and Hens of Daze, at the very least (have no idea who might have been able to start beating me if I wore a Hal). Hens of Daze beat me because that team has EC -- that makes sense. However, Dix and Iconics have a lot of AMF. Even with that AMF being useless against Hal, Hal simply could not get the same damage out there. Then again, Dixie has a big Jig, and Iconics uses an exbow.

So, maybe this is just for my fight-list. *smile* I did not gain anyone by using Hal, either. I have already switched back to SF (love the "undo"!)

At best, I would say it is a wash. If I switched to being more physical in damage, really buffed some BGs and even added more STR/DEX gear to my junctioning, Hal might be pretty decent. But SF does very well and shoots from the back. As much as I would like the balanced attack of magical and physical, it doesn't appear to be all that advantageous given the recent reduction to physical damage. Hal just can't get it done (at least not any better than Mr. Steel).

Now, this could be interpreted as things just being well balanced... Hal hits more times, but for less. That means PL and TSA are more effective (even with the TSA reductions). Even a lesser-trained GA also hurts poor Hal more. As far as items/stats, Hal is affected by axbow, exbow, Evasion, and EC. SF is affected by AMF (which can kill), MgS, and MageSeeker.

In any case, I can say that from my perspective Hal is not overpowered (if anyone still even thought that after the most recent damage reductions applied by Jonathan).

QBJohnnywas September 12 2008 10:19 AM EDT

The penalty for using a bow in melee probably affected you in those battles against Dixie Cousins et al, considering the average battle there is about 8 rounds.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2008 10:29 AM EDT

"In any case, I can say that from my perspective Hal is not overpowered "

the tat artist change really makes it quite hard to do thorough testing these days. it would give a much better picture i would think to see all of the familiars compared across the board with a no gear no junctioned minion.

i do think anyone would be a glutton for punishment to go through with that though, or a lover of data.

QBsutekh137 September 12 2008 10:54 AM EDT

I have periodically tried the different tats... The artist isn't really the problem (IMO). The problem is changing a build to match it. For example, the ToE is a nice tattoo...if you have four minions, a lot of HP, some TSA's, PL, and one or two MgSes to layer in there. That's hard to test. *smile*

Obviously, ToA would require massive changes to my team.

In my build (quick kill, DM-based), I can say that the SF is pretty hard to beat. FF spreads too much (and then the fireballers kill each other in melee). SF takes too long (same for IF). And the Hal doesn't get it done, as I tested this morning.

If I were starting over, I think an SoD single tank strapping on a Halidon would be fun. It would be kind of like my current build, but all physical instead of all magic.

three4thsforsaken September 12 2008 3:21 PM EDT

I agree. With the new changes in damage, it is now easier than ever to make it to melee rounds. My Hal does 400k damage per hit on low defended minions, so the only thing that makes my Hal compete with other familiar damage is the multiple hits (yay,GA!), therefore a Hal in melee is now truly a fish out of water.

QBsutekh137 September 12 2008 4:35 PM EDT

Exactly. MM has about the only consistent way of doling out quite a bit of ranged damage, keep it going in melee, and no backfire against its own team at any point. It is getting the job done for me, currently...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2008 4:55 PM EDT

if you guys say it is not overpowered then it must be true. i mean one of you actually tried it out without really changing their setup and the other uses it all the time! ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2008 5:10 PM EDT

i fought your character just out of curiosity, i was under the impression that evasion was pretty much now just supposed to stop multiple hits, which it doesn't actually do against your hal, so i see why ya like the multiple hits so much.

Hal shot the pacifist [321970]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (45710)

Hal hit the pacifist [309692]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (45331)

Hal shot the pacifist [376529]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (47033)
Hal shot the pacifist [370540]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (46865)

Hal shot the pacifist [425136]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (48318)
Hal hit the pacifist [281059]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (44335)

Hal shot the pacifist [444868]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (48569)
Hal shot the pacifist [417874]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (47939)

Hal hit the pacifist [318752]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (45636)
Hal hit the pacifist [395493]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (47658)
Hal's Guardian Angel takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (421863)!
Hal's Guardian Angel touches the pacifist [686174]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal's Guardian Angel (53035)

Melee Combat

Hal burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (855928)
Hal skewered the pacifist [640287]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (49822)
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
R.I.P. the pacifist

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 13 2008 9:26 AM EDT

how many hits in ranged do you get against people with no evasion and no dex?

QBJohnnywas September 13 2008 9:30 AM EDT

His Hal hits me - no evasion , no dex - for quadruple hits.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 13 2008 9:40 AM EDT

well with the evasion curve the way it is, it is going to be very difficult to get it higher than the 250 effect, which with the 40% reduction from not training dex, takes it down to 211. so without training dex, the best you can hope for is taking quad hits down to doubles? when i was playing around with the mage shield i put about 80 million xp into evasion and iirc with my gear it gave me a total evasion of 259. i am not sure with the curve what that would bring my effect to, but it would likely be 225 or so.

i wonder if that would be enough to get it down to single hits at least?

three4thsforsaken September 13 2008 6:15 PM EDT

since ELB has 100% Base CTH it will be very difficult to reduce to single hits. You'll probably have better luck ECing my damage to oblivion.

Adminedyit September 14 2008 7:41 AM EDT

I have A Halidon Familiar lvl 6,879,860 and i get this vs you dudemus

Hal's shot went wide of the pacifist

evasion also seems to still be working in melee as well, with A Blacksword of Nan Elmoth [92x10180] (+225) i get

Malice stumbled swinging at Kano-san

so yes evasion still works it has just been toned down like a lot of other things this change month (imo)


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 14 2008 7:56 AM EDT

if his lower level tat is hitting me that well and you are regularly missing me, i guess the only difference between the two teams is a junctioned aof?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 14 2008 8:09 AM EDT

when i fight you ed i get this:

Ranged Combat
Hal's shot ricocheted near the pacifist

Hal hit the pacifist [249005]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (61254)

Hal hit the pacifist [359107]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (65908)

Hal hit the pacifist [318218]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (64334)
Hal shot the pacifist [304773]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (63781)

Hal hit the pacifist [259506]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (61762)
Hal shot the pacifist [260187]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (61795)

Melee Combat
Avarice burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (983320)
Hal shot the pacifist [449602]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Hal (68938)
Malice hacked the pacifist [1236894]
Malice draws strength from his weapon! [102548]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Malice (64920)
Malice rent the pacifist [949841]
Malice draws strength from his weapon! [112467]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Malice (60176)
R.I.P. Avarice

Spite burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (854884)
Malice decapitated the pacifist [1306859]
Malice draws strength from his weapon! [87235]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Malice (52416)
Malice dislimbed the pacifist [1234636]
Malice cries "Die! You Weak Pathetic Fool!"
R.I.P. the pacifist R.I.P. Spite

i do get one miss in ranged, but you also get double hits as well as one hit in melee.

i am not saying evasion isn't still doing anything, i am just not sure it is doing 60 million xp worth. it may very well be where it needs to be. i do think that for my character, i cannot go much higher, so this is likely the effective cap of evasion without dex since evasion effect curve gets pretty steep after this.

if we see an adjustment on base cth for weapons, then that may also adjust my results but i am unsure whether that will come about or not.

i am beginning to agree that ec may be the better choice and worry that evasion was fixed too much better. ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 14 2008 8:11 AM EDT

by the one hit in melee i meant with the hal. you are getting doubles with your melee weapon it seems.
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