What is the hot item of exploitation now? (in General)

Relic September 14 2008 12:04 PM EDT

Now that we have had such massive changes in overall damage (especially to physical damage) with only a marginal change to the TSA. My vote for the next item up on the chopping block is the TSA.

IMO, the damage changes hurt FB more than anything because now it takes too long to kill the other teams in ranged. Any battle for my team that goes beyond ranged is a lost cause due to the friendly fire nature of FB.

When you throw in the PL/TSA/HP minions that exist in the upper and to the lesser degree lower ranks, FB has a hard time overcoming the PL/TSA combos. Either tone down the TSA regen or increase the FB damage in ranged.

Now I am only stating my view here and I realize that I am biased because I use FB, but nearing the end of my NCB is bringing up questions of strategy changes and adding additional minions.

If I spend close to 90 million on two additional minions, they will only be fodder for my FB.

Cube September 14 2008 12:30 PM EDT

IMO the ToE change already made FB far more attractive. It made a huge difference in how well people with FB did versus me.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 14 2008 12:48 PM EDT

TSA regen already has been toned down. But it is true that FB is kind of set up badly right now.

Zaekyr September 14 2008 2:13 PM EDT

I think if we do nerf TSA regeneration to 2% maybe then bring out the amulet of regeneration to do 1% regeneration and if anyone wants to they can use 2 armor slots for "full" 3% regeneration.

8DEOTWP September 14 2008 2:47 PM EDT

What was it before?

three4thsforsaken September 14 2008 2:51 PM EDT

RoBF, and before that BGs

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 14 2008 3:14 PM EDT

make FB higher than CoC and make it ranged only
double the number of ranged rounds and remove the melee friendly fire...

three4thsforsaken September 14 2008 3:45 PM EDT

I think doubling FB would be a bit much, as well as doubling ranged rounds. 1 round I think would be plenty. FB still at high levels is well capable of taking most of the health of a team in ranged. I also agree with killing melee backlash

Rexozord September 14 2008 4:10 PM EDT

FB backlash is there for a reason. FB is the most powerful ranged spell. The fact that FB attacks five/six rounds before most other DD (SG, CoC, and Decay) is already an advantage. FB also gets more powerful once it enters melee or with an HoC in the last round of range. Nerfing the backlash in melee would be a bad idea, increasing the damage of FB is a really bad idea, and doubling the number of range rounds is an extremely bad idea.

The backlash in melee is there to compensate for the advantage of attacking during range. Also there are other ways for one to reduce backlash effect, such as using a one-minion team, training AS, or using E minions so it doesn't matter terribly much if they die. Also, it would make FB overpowered at lower MPRs. Increasing FB damage, especially if done in a large increment, would again unbalance it versus the other DD spells.

Doubling the range rounds would completely unbalance the game. CoC, SG, Decay, RoBF, and Melee weapons would all become obsolete. ELB and MgS prices would go through the roof. So yeah, if you want to ruin the game, I definitely suggest doubling range rounds.

All DD spells have drawbacks to make them balanced. MM does the lowest damage. SG/CoC hit only in melee. CoC/FB spread their damage. Decay can't kill and hits only in melee. FB has backlash. If you take away FB backlash, then it is simple to overcome the damage spread by simply sending your FB levels through the roof and equipping items like AGs, CoI, etc. Thus, FB would become unbalanced.

TrueDevil [AAA] September 15 2008 12:03 AM EDT

The problem with friendly fire is, you can't have more than 2 minion FB team, more than 2 minions, it gets weaker because of the exp share and then the friendly fire...

What I would suggest is at least, make the friendly fire every odd or even melee rounds, I don't think this is overpowering at all, it's not that much of a help, but sometimes you might need 10-20 melee rounds and this would help a bit.

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 1:02 AM EDT


FB has been fine in the past, but certain changes in recent months ask for a bit of rebalancing for FB. FB puts all it's money into winning in ranged, or at least 1 or 2 rounds into melee. With all the damage reduction and cutting into FB damage it's harder to end the battle quickly, meaning more hits.

FB has a serious defense problem. In order to avoid backlash one has to be single minion. Single minions are known to have serious problems with surviving especially with the evasion changes. If you have no kill slots and are taking hits every round, you have serious problems. Decay anyone? CoC?

Then you turn around and try to do multiple minions with FB. Unless you have a FF you are bound to have serious damage issues because of dilution. Even if you do have a FF, it better be huge, and AS is kinda of a nessesity, as familiars are very very squishy (AMF or MgK will wipe you out). Now you're open to DM and well, you can't even train GA which is my favorite part of a DE familiar team without taking double backlash.

I do believe that FB needs a small boost. Doubling damage is a bit much, but a cut in the backlash or a small boost in damage would be fine.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 15 2008 1:16 AM EDT

You really think this needs to be better?

Aurore's Fireball hit Evad'o Minion [377319], A Slinky [244349], Teh Enchantments's familiar [470937], Teh Enchantments [291907], Teh Man [214432]


Joe's Fireball hit Evad'o Minion [151276], A Slinky [89025], Teh Enchantments's familiar [184133], Teh Enchantments [145240], Teh Man [112488]


The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Evad'o Minion [363776], A Slinky [282959], Teh Enchantments's familiar [415635], Teh Enchantments [481135], Teh Man [322937]

That all looks to me to be a huge amount of FB damage... thats more than my 5.2 mil EF is doing... and thats even with me using a MgS on both Teh Man and Slinky... Personally I think FB is fine where it is... It does more than enough damage... and if you don't have a lot, and I mean alot of hp trained the damage really hurts alot...

If you want to do real damage without friendly fire then go with SG or CoC... stop wasting time asking for a buff to a sepll that already does more damage than my tank in one round than my tank does in 3 or more...

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 15 2008 1:20 AM EDT

And a few more for giggles

Butter's Fireball hit Evad'o Minion [236827], A Slinky [313067], Teh Enchantments's familiar [342547], Teh Enchantments [463998], Teh Man [192335]

God Of Fire's Fireball hit Evad'o Minion [320612], A Slinky [229139], Teh Enchantments's familiar [453622], Teh Enchantments [506661], Teh Man [189197]

V's Fireball hit Evad'o Minion [127122], A Slinky [52121], Teh Enchantments's familiar [168052], Teh Enchantments [151891], Teh Man [86952]

Frost September 15 2008 1:23 AM EDT

No Draco make fireball the most powerful spell ever!!!! It needs buffs more damage with no ff make it cast 2 rounds ahead of everything else and make it have a 50% chance of instantly killing what it hits and make it have a regain hp ability like Morgs and make it have cut ac.

Cube September 15 2008 1:29 AM EDT

Frost you forgot it should also not take any AMF or GA backlash! I think that it should also do damage over time because of course you are burnt! Oh oh and it should stun for 1 round because have you ever touched a hot stove? Who'd want to move after that for a while.

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 1:32 AM EDT

All those people have at least 6 million trained FB, for example God of Fire has a good 10 million FB behind him. And he's doing a good 500k tops to an undefended minion during last round of ranged? It's not like he's doing it during the course of ranged because of ranged reducs.

And why do you compare damage to one of your minions? SFBM are the ultimate exp concentration, that would be very depressing of they did less damage than one of your minions.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 15 2008 1:36 AM EDT

That damage is all including me putting out a 6.1 mil Amf.... now try some numbers from someone who doesn't use Amf and ask them their opinions about those people fireballs.

Cube September 15 2008 1:43 AM EDT

Spell/Skill Popularity

When Fireball drops to second you can start complaining, deal?

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 1:46 AM EDT

I'm not so much asking if the damage is great. I'm asking is the damage is great versus the exp invested into it. With millions invested into a DD, you are then required to be single minion and your survival on the line.

I'm looking about how fireball was meant to be used in the past. I mean it is the offensive DD, kill before you are killed. With the new change it's much more difficult to do the same purpose. DM SFBM suddenly are taking more decays and everyone is taking more hits in general.

Are you saying that FB doesn't need to be rescaled with the new changes? Then prior to the changes when the FB was much more powerful, how come no one complained then?

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 1:50 AM EDT

It's worth noting that I don't believe that FB is the only one that needs a bit of rescaling, I do believe that other DDs need a bit of changing too, because they simply don't function like they used to.

And Cubicle, I really don't understand your logic. Lots of old teams prior to the change have fb trained. I mean, FB requires a insane amount of levels to really get anywhere to begin with of course it's super popular! How does that measure it's effectivness?

Cube September 15 2008 1:55 AM EDT

That's why I said second and not fourth.

There are still so many successful teams using it. I don't see the problem.

Rexozord September 15 2008 1:56 AM EDT

Yes, Three4ths... it sacrifices Defense for strong Offense and Ranged attack. It's made to kill in ranged. Thus it gives a penalty if you reach melee. FB seems balanced to me. As for your serious problems, remember that both Decay and CoC don't attack until melee. So you try to kill in range. Simple. Yes, DD has reduced effectiveness in range... but that's so it's actually possible to run strats against it. If you make it perfect, you make it overpowered. It needs to retain balance. For now, FB still seems to be doing fine. It got a boost from not being effected by ToE as earlier mentioned. It doesn't really need to be improved at this time.

Also, I should point out that FB backlash can be reduced/eliminated by MgS and RoBF. It's not like there's nothing you can do about it.

Cubicle makes a good point as well. If there's a reduction in FB mages, that might signal an unbalance... However, I haven't seen anything like that yet.

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 1:59 AM EDT

The biggest FB in the game before couldn't kill in ranged, now the are doing a they are doing a 3rd less damage. The amount of FB they need now is a bit...unreasonable.

In theory it works fine, in practice, the numbers are slightly off with the current changes

Frost September 15 2008 2:04 AM EDT

ac effectiveness was reduced along with the mgs remember? can someone post a picture of a little girl crying for me?

Cube September 15 2008 2:07 AM EDT

Biggest FB in the Game's Fight logs

Seems like he has plenty of fights that end in ranged, and if they
don't they end within 7 rounds except for versus three people, and all
3 of those people are on his fightlist.

The ToE nerf was an amazing buff for Fireball. The only things holding
back that spell from dominating were the ToE and GA. So if the damage
nerf hurt FB a little then so be it, they'll do better thanks to the
ToE nerf.

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 3:03 AM EDT

Ok, I am a bit annoyed so I'm going to put out all my ideas and reasoning.

For starters, I don't use FB, all my info is from experience.

To begin with what is the purpose of FB? The purpose is obviously for the quick kill. Everything about it screams "kill or be killed" that means that the mission of a FB is to take out all the HP of an opposing team in 6 rounds, 7 tops. What happens if it doesn't, well then you start taking hits, and without kill slots or AC or other defensive properties, you are pretty screwed. (Cubicle, that's why everyone on their fightlist has 7 rounds or less, because the only people they can beat die in 7 rounds.)

So basically my reasoning is that, with the new changes FB cannot do that effectively. That being take out all the HP during ranged rounds.

Prior to the changes this month FB was pretty well at doing it's job, but obviously couldn't do it perfectly. Yes there was ToE, but there were other problems with damage reduction and simply having enough HP and reduction. Lots of FB minions relied on evasion, and those who didn't made good use of DM.

Now that damage is cut in a 3rd FB suddenly has much more trouble winning in ranged. Why is this bad? Well remember SFBM mages are incredibly fragile, if you train DM you can't train AMF so decay will destroy you. If you trained evasion in the past, you're no longer dodging anymore. Anyways, it's obvious you are getting hit much much more and is doing much less damage. God ranged reducs are sad.

I've been farming SFBM for a while now, I beat them all now, because of my Hal. They have so much invested into FB to do what they need to do that they don't have enough HP to take a few hits that their evasion can't dodge anymore. And it's worth noting that reinking my Hal into an SF would still allow me to take them out easily. I'm a single minion Hal user btw, with little much ac, so it's not like I'm the most defensive team ever either (Heck, DM even dispels my AS, which isn't even that effective!). Not to mention damage reduction makes it easy to take GA damage.

In the end it's a rock and a hard place. You always will need more FB (since 10 million isn't as much as you would think) but then you need tons of HP. DM is less of an option now, since you need AMF to stop a dinky decay.

Multiple minions, say no! Since you are going to make it to melee (if a single minion can't do it in ranged multi minions aren't) your damage will be dinky. And 2-3 rounds of CoC would outdamage your FB anyway. Use a FF if you want but I already said that they have their own problems.

Anyway, I'm not asking to double the FB damage, I'm not asking for like some huge change. I do think it needs a little boost though. Probably some ease of on the ranged reducs. Or maybe one more round. Backlash is the least of my worries though, but I wonder why do we have it?

Backlash only limits options, everyone needs to go single minion anyway for exp concentration, so what does backlash do? It makes the FF familiar much harder to use. I think backlash should be reduced, I'm not sure if it can be killed altogether, but Half damage on your own team is kinda harsh.

There, that's most of my thoughts.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 15 2008 3:48 AM EDT

Glory, TSA. Def TSA. ;)

When it become better for a Tank to use a TSA for regen than VA (as the damage you put out has been reduced so much you regen more off of the 3% of your natural HP per round than you do of the damage of your single/double/triple hits) then you know there's something wrong. ;)

Cube September 15 2008 8:01 AM EDT

"(Cubicle, that's why everyone on their fightlist has 7 rounds or less, because the only people they can beat die in 7 rounds.) "

No, it wasn't the fight list, anyone that beats him is in 7 rounds or less. The only ones that are longer lose to him.

Cube September 15 2008 8:03 AM EDT

Also, GL have you checked out Hatchetman's new character? =)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 15 2008 8:19 AM EDT

Love it! ;) But I would have prefered to see the GoM/MC VB version! :P

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 12:55 PM EDT

Then I guess SFBM mages are incredibly squishy? Or that God needs to train more hp?

Heavy September 15 2008 1:36 PM EDT

You beat him :)

Single Minion (Clan Beer Garden) God (F)(+) (THE_iLLUMiNATi) Single Minion 6 12:50 PM EDT

I am playing SFBM, they do have their weakness but doesn't CoC have problems beating PL/TSA/HP teams too?

TOE used to be great for SFBM to reduce AMF/GA damage.
I hope their will be a new tattoo with the same effect (without aura).
It will be a perfect Tattoo for Single FB or single CoC Minion :D

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 1:44 PM EDT

I give up.

Of course I beat them. Because they are so easy to beat. In fact I beat all SFBM in the game. The only option for fireball is damn easy to beat, that's why I think it needs a boost.

I don't use FB, so I think I'm not biased. I look at them and say, hmmm all I need is a ranged weapon, ranged DD or familiar, medicore defense, GA to beat them. (And I know if I say that, someone is going to go up and say, I can't beat them! and disregard all my other statements)

It's really frustrating trying to explain my point of view when people just nitpick at the details without telling me where I am wrong, or the logic behind their own point of view.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 15 2008 1:55 PM EDT

since evasion now works as a layer of damage reduction through lesser hits, shouldn't an equal level ff hit about four times as hard as a hal at least in the upper ranks?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 15 2008 1:59 PM EDT

or perhaps even a bit stronger due to the fact that the evasion counterpart, amf actually damages the damage dealer unlike its physical counterpart.

Heavy September 15 2008 2:27 PM EDT

I think it isn't a fair comparison.
Can you still easily beat him with a ToE (he is using one)?
The other SFBM are weaker than you in power, so it should be easy :D

I do hope that SFBM gets stronger. If FB Ignore PL, it would make them a bit more stronger.
To counter TSA , FB should do double damage to minions wearing one :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 15 2008 3:24 PM EDT

"And I know if I say that, someone is going to go up and say, I can't beat them! and disregard all my other statements"

ZOMG! I can't beat SFBM! :P

Nah, I agree, and posted otherwheres. FB is designed to be quick kill. I think we can all agree on that, as the Melee backlash is counter to an outlasting strategy.

But it just can't kill quick enough, and to be honest, I don't think we really want it to. As that would just push everyone to go FB in Rnaged and then we'd all cry about not being able to live to Melee, etc, etc.

But why has it got the Melee backlash? Really?

QBJohnnywas September 15 2008 3:28 PM EDT

Why the melee backlash? Because you could hide a FB mage in amidst some meatshields and keep doing spread damage through ranged and into melee. Taking away the friendly fire is a bit like removing the dex penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee.

Zaekyr September 15 2008 4:27 PM EDT

I'm sorry I don't see it.I have a decent AMF trained and I lose to SFBM of close to equal power in ranged all the time and against multi minion I win about 60% of the time.Everything over the last couple of changelogs got nerfed,armor/damage/skills/Tats.

And the physical damage counter similar to AMF is EC not evasion.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 15 2008 4:59 PM EDT

How about MM Johnny? Is it only the Spread of FB that makes this not ok?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 15 2008 5:05 PM EDT

"And the physical damage counter similar to AMF is EC not evasion."

i am not saying that you are wrong, but it would be nice for you to state why you think this is so.

either way, this does not change the fact that with recent changes to the game, a fire familiar should be doing about four times the damage of a halidon (on unprotected minions) since the hal can hit four times a round.

it may be that this is the case, but i would love to see some numbers showing damage comparisons between those two familiars at near equal levels.

miteke [Superheros] September 15 2008 7:21 PM EDT

The Mace of disruption looks nice. Is it worth giving up a MH slot? Has anyone tried this weapon and loved it?

Zaekyr September 15 2008 7:47 PM EDT

Although evasion used to be the end all of counters for physical damage EC has always been more effective when it is actually trained.Seems like a lot of people want to train just a little EC and expect it to stop a tank.In reality if people trained EC as much as AMF needs to be trained to be of any use then it would be effective at reducing the damage.

As I have said before,evasion wasn't always "uber".Back when the big thing was single minion TOA ELB users that "mages couldn't compete against"(not that anyone else could either).Evasion was a much less used skill then because at the time it could not eliminate physical damage so easily.It had a lesser effect because dexterity didn't grant as much PTH,much less defensive dexterity was granted and ENC didn't exist so very large ELB's existed that easily foiled the evasion of the time.Then a lot of CB'rs asked for some way to compete against that uber ranged strat and evasion was "enhanced" to its uber status resulting in tank (melee tank mostly) nerfdom.

Before all of this EC was used against tanks nearly as much as AMF against mages.Some mages,upon the evasion buffs,switched from EC to evasion cause it was a far cheaper investment and stopped all physical damage instead of just lowering it compared to EC

The only reason many still think of evasion as "the tank counter" is because it was,for such a long time,the perfect cheap way to stop a tank.In spite of many tanks complaints during the "imbalance".

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 15 2008 7:58 PM EDT

it is for many of those same reasons that i think of evasion as the counterpart to amf, in its current form it is possible to take away perhaps half of the damage, through reduced hits, but virtually impossible to go beyond that.

from reading your post though one thing has become obvious to me. evasion and ec together for physical damage reductions certainly give more options than the single amf we have for magical damage. it would almost seem to me that evasion is there only to give a skill for non tanks. as of now you can't, at least on a single minion, do both amf and ec. that is quite limiting.

as a skill, evasion is now very underwhelming! perhaps, since it has been limited so greatly, it could have the ability of being straight damage reduction for both types of damage? perhaps we could call it protection and then not have to redo the character attributes page other than shifting things around! ; 0

Zaekyr September 15 2008 8:23 PM EDT

I suggested in a different post allowing a small amount of magic damage reduction to evasion by using the evasion -pth number and if your evasion reduces pth by 125 then insert a decimal so it becomes 12.5% and same for 78 would become 7.8% reduction in magic damage.The idea I think makes evasion a bit more useful but doesn't go "over the top".
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Xep">What is the hot item of exploitation now?</a>