Can we have dual wield now? (in General)


Zaekyr September 15 2008 8:18 PM EDT

I thought of a way to make it fun and fair to incorporate dual wielding.

First off base the capability of dual wielding on the base stats of a minion(HP,STR,DEX) and the base weapon damage number (55 for ES,67 for VB,73 for Both,74 for Kat,80 for ELS).The possibility would be based on percentage level of trained dexterity so that to dual wield two elven stiletto's you would have to have 55% dexterity trained when considering base stats.i.e. if you add up the experience put into HP,STR,and DEX and your dexterity trained is 55% of the total you can dual wield.Note that by doing so that particular minion will have far less HP and STR so he is easier to kill and does less damage.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] September 15 2008 8:43 PM EDT

I like the idea but I think it would be really hard to incorporate.a minion only has two hands right?? what about shields??? and without that shield and the lower hp. I think the minion wouldn't have much of a chance even lasting to melee.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] September 15 2008 8:46 PM EDT

And then you forgot about archery?? so basically a minion is supposed to somehow carry a shield two swords and sometype of bow??

Underage Drinking [Battle Royale] September 15 2008 8:57 PM EDT

i recommend for DW, that its a skill and it removes the bow and shield slot, the 'off hand' suffers a 50% penalty to dmg, no 2handers allowed.

and if that cant work cause its 'just too hard' then make a DW tattoo

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 9:21 PM EDT

how will duel weilding benefit CB though? other than flavor?

TheHatchetman September 15 2008 9:44 PM EDT

dual weilding allows tanks to potentially target two different minions in a single round, while also essentially eliminating the need to choose weapons based on effect. I had always said that VB+Bth would be the epitome of OP melee... but with SG around, that argument was shot to hell even before VB was nerfed into near-nonexistance... So now I present to you my other alternative:

MoD+Bth = almost as OP as SG... :P

AdminLamuness September 15 2008 9:46 PM EDT

If tanks get to dual wield, then be sure to let mages do dual casts. ;p

Kefeck [BlackSmith] September 15 2008 10:09 PM EDT

haha. double cast I like.

[P]Mitt September 16 2008 12:45 AM EDT

Mages have 2 hands, can't I cast a FB with one and a CoC with another?

This is perfectly fair - there is exp dilution so that particular minion will have far less trained in each spell so he is easier to kill and does less damage.

(I'm kidding)

I don't think dual wielding is feasible even with the exp dilution - the weapon modifiers themselves deal a lot more damage. And if your dexterity is so high, you will be getting double, triple hits with two weapons? Not balanced, in my opinion.

3D September 16 2008 1:01 AM EDT

Well as a WoW player, with Dual Wielding, the CTH on both weapons while DW drops significantly. I don't know if this would help because of NW dump into + hit or whatever, I'm no expert. But perhaps create a permanent drop in chance to hit while dual wielding would balance that out.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] September 16 2008 1:02 AM EDT

IF your saying it wont be balanced with doublecast and duel wield. Arn't you kind of implying its inbalanced right now??

3D September 16 2008 1:08 AM EDT

Well, I guess. I was kind of just replying to the post above me.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] September 16 2008 1:10 AM EDT

i was actually replying to the guy above you also.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2008 3:37 AM EDT

Hatchet hit the nail on the head.

If you're stuck to attacking a single target, this is no better than BL, and will never, ever, be trained. Blood Lust *is* Dual Wielding, just with one weapon. ;)

Noe if this skill allowed Tanks to hit two different Minions, it might actually be worth it!

Cube September 16 2008 4:11 AM EDT

ENC would make this balanced anyone that's wondering.. But I think it could fit into the game in some way especially with the addition of the MoD, more weapon abilities to choose from.

QBJohnnywas September 16 2008 12:19 PM EDT

Can I have a dual wield mage please? Decay and SG please. Thanks. That would do nicely.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 16 2008 12:24 PM EDT

Sure, right after you give tanks a weapon that eats through half of the target's HP with 7K NW.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2008 12:34 PM EDT

Johnny, only if the Decay fires *after* the SG. ;)

QBJohnnywas September 16 2008 12:36 PM EDT

No, it can fire first, and I'll happily let the HoC only work on decay!

j'bob September 16 2008 12:39 PM EDT

Forget duel wielding! (would I need a wielding helmet for that?)
I want the ability to charge my melee weapon with an energy that causes an explosion each time I hit my target with it, said explosion causing damage to all other enemy minions!
Call it... hmm, Explosive Shot!
YEAH!!!

8DEOTWP September 16 2008 3:15 PM EDT

We don't have weak enough 1h weapons to allow for a fair duel wielding.

Gandalf September 16 2008 3:25 PM EDT

Gotta have dual wield in a rpg game - for the cool factor but for it too work in a hard to balance game like cb many people would moan however it would work :)

Fun idea but doubt it would be used by Jon :)

Colonel Custard September 16 2008 3:32 PM EDT

Yeah, dude. We don't want anyone getting their hands on two Beaked Axes!

I think the idea that you have to have 80% of your EXP in DX in order to dual-wield ELS would be enough of a deterrent that no one would do it. In other words, it would be one of those things that you really have to commit to, if the current system were implemented.

Alternativelty, there could be something like a CTH penalty (to BASE cth, oooh!), or there could be a sort of Encumbrance-like mechanism, wherein you can dual-wield ELS with only 72% of your XP trained into DX, but at a 10% penalty to damage and accuracy, or something. Like Encumbrance for DX, since it grants none as far as NW is concerned.

Just my contribution to an idea, though I hate to say I really don't see Jon ever implementing this, no matter how far we take hypothetical discussions of how it would work and how it would be balanced.

Colonel Custard September 16 2008 3:37 PM EDT

Oh, to follow up on the example I just gave: with dual-wield, it would make lower-level weapons more viable (in specialized, dual-wield strategies), because it's more feasible (and less detrimental to your ENC) to put 40% of your EXP into DX and wield two Bastard Swords than 80% for two ELS. Is it better to wield two Bastard Swords than one ELS? Probably not, in most cases. Two Elven Stilettos would be better than one BoNE, though, right?

It would make lower-level weapons more used, if nothing else. Or it could make them more used. Or it should make them more used. Or something.

Cube September 16 2008 4:34 PM EDT

Oh please use Decay and SG, you'd kill yourself in just a few rounds.

PearsonTritonRaveshaw September 16 2008 4:45 PM EDT

compare these rates:
Would CB have more people joining CB even if there is no dual wielding than people leaving because there isn't? I doubt it.

Or would more people leave CB because of the imbalance of dual wielding compared to people joining because there is dual wielding...

Also, two BoTHs (for 40% HP suction) + VA (for a total of 80%) + TSA (regen and strength, duh) = ultimate unkillable tank (of doom).

Colonel Custard September 16 2008 5:33 PM EDT

To dual-wield BoTHs, under the current proposition, you would have to invest 73% of your EXP into DX. That leaves you 27% to split between HP and ST. Including a 30% ST boost from the TSA, you'd still only have about 1/3 as much ST as DX, and even less in HP. And then, you regen 3% of your HP per round. I question whether that is more or less than the pitiful damage you inflict on your opponents. Of course, with VA, you have to do damage to get anything out of it. Since you're not doing any damage, 80% HP regen would probably give you enough to survive the 60% GA backlash you're inevitably receiving (because *anyone* who trains GA has enough to counter your damage at this point). Best-case, it's a stalemate machine.

I'm exaggerating, but I'm trying to emphasize how the ideas being thrown out there practically make it non-viable without some sort of creativity put into it. Yes, a tank with 80% VA HP regen + a TSA would be super-unstoppable-unkillable-HULKSMASH!, assuming they could hit for more than 100k at 1 mil MPR, or that 3% of native HP were any number to speak of. If you gave Todd-Spydah or Koy (old Koy, I mean) the ability to dual-wield BoTHs without having to redistribute their stats, yes, they would stomp. If, however, they could only invest 13.5% of their total XP into HP, they would have a whopping 2mil HP on a single tank at 3mil MPR.

ENC would also limit upgradeability of said weapons, especially when ST and HP, the biggest granters of ENC, are cut down to such ludicrous levels. The flipside of this, of course, is that the function for weapon damage (varying with the square of ST and Weapon X) means that, theoretically, adding 1000 xs each to two BoTHs would increase overall damage output more greatly than adding 2000 xs on a single BoTH. As for + upgrades, it would obviously be much cheaper to have two +150 weapons rather than one +300.

Of course, a strat that can include so little ST would be extremely vulnerable to EC...
But you would be training so much native DX that you could probably go all ST-boosting gear, right?

I think I've thought too much for one post. Someone respond please, I want to say some more things.

Goodfish September 16 2008 6:42 PM EDT

Just make a new skill: Smite. Allows for secondary attacks with the shield, base damage is its total AC, multiplier is based off Smite's level. Requires a one-handed weapon, naturally, and a total DX penalty of -5% or it suffers a chance to fail (+1% failure per %DX penalty above 5%).

Meh?

three4thsforsaken September 16 2008 7:05 PM EDT

how about this, duel wielding doesn't allow for more attacks, but rather one "double attack". For any attack you add the NW of both weapons to the attack and have them stack appropiatly as if the duel weapon was it's own weapon. This means vamp effects would only apply the damage proportional to the X of the vamp weapon and so forth for other weapons.

This will take away a shield slot, but will allow for more defense. It should kill the use of ranged weapons as well.

three4thsforsaken September 16 2008 7:06 PM EDT

I mean it'll take a shield slot but allow for more melee offense. Seems fair?

Colonel Custard September 16 2008 10:28 PM EDT

I disagree. I like what I'm saying.

Train 40% of your XP into DX, and you can wield two Bastard Swords. It's the tank of the future.

Tyriel [123456789] September 16 2008 10:34 PM EDT

What would 'Dual Wield' add the game that 1) isn't already here, 2) can't be replicated in an easier way, 3) is less complex than other possible ideas, and 4) is less useless than utterly useless, and yet not overpowered?

three4thsforsaken September 16 2008 10:41 PM EDT

Tyriel, I do believe however how we're spinning this people just want it for how it sounds cool. It's not needed for the game at all :/

But it's kinda fun to think if there ever is a way to balance it.

Goodfish September 16 2008 10:41 PM EDT

I vote for Smite.

/shamelessplug

Cube September 16 2008 10:46 PM EDT

"Also, two BoTHs (for 40% HP suction) + VA (for a total of 80%) + TSA (regen and strength, duh) = ultimate unkillable tank (of doom)."

If you did this the weapons' effect would only apply to it's own hits, so you'd have 20% on the first BoTH and 20% on the second BoTH, or you could have 20% on the first BoTH, and no leech with the MoD's hit.

Colonel Custard September 16 2008 11:34 PM EDT

Good point, Cubicle. In that case, your innate VA from the BoTH + a max cast VA effect would only give 60% total leech, which means you would exactly negate any GA retaliation, and nothing more. Assuming the opponent has no GA, whoop-de-doo, you're getting 10k HP/round while your opponent's average blow is in the 40k range.

What it would add to the game is that you can use TWO BASTARD SWORDS!!!

Or two Beaked Axes.

It would add texture to the game. How many one-handed weapons are there in the game? Square that number, and you have the number of possible permutations.

I was thinking about the base weapon damage, and how much DX you have to train. For two BoTH, as I mentioned, you'd need 73% of your XP in DX to not experience a penalty, but what if you had one BoTH and one VB? Then, it averages out, and you only need 70% trained. That's still a lot, but what about a MoD and a Battle Axe? Sure, the Battle Axe doesn't do nearly as much damage, but it's a nice little clean-up weapon, as well as letting you possibly target a second minion, and it brings down your average of how much DX you need trained to under 60%.

Basically, Dual-Wield locks you into training a lot of DX, but you can train a LOT of extra DX to wield two special-ability weapons, or you can train a much more reasonable amount into DX at the cost of your auxiliary weapon being simply auxiliary. It gives light tanks more options, I guess. Heavy tanks train a lot of ST and go big on armor and stuff, whereas a light tank could go big on DX, and get a little extra chop in there. To increase damage, there are two options: hit harder, or hit more. The dual-wielding tank definitely doesn't hit harder, but it seems like, based on current game mechanics, it would probably hit more.

I suppose a dual-wielding tank wouldn't really be a foil to any particular strategy, so in that sense it isn't really *needed*. However, I see it as being impractical enough to use with big weapons that it can hardly be abused, whereas with more mediocre weapons it could just add a little spice, and maybe give those things in the weapon store just a little more use. Plus, it's cool. And who knows? Maybe someone will get creative with it and create a rockin' team.

Colonel Custard September 16 2008 11:39 PM EDT

Oh yeah, and this:

<Blooderfly> will gloves of mercy ever be usefull?
<Little_Anthony> no

Let's make these new items useful, eh?

Little Anthony September 16 2008 11:46 PM EDT

just so on the record, i don't know what i am talking about :P

Zaekyr September 17 2008 3:34 AM EDT

Well obviously [RP08]ColonelCustard got the idea.It really cannot be overpowered due to lowered HP,STR, and ENC limits since the NW of two weapons limits how big they can both be.The method I described wouldn't add anything "special" in particular to the game as far as mechanics but would be fun and cool.I doubt I would even try it but the option to do so is possible now that weapon damage has been lowered.

And get serious.....obviously if your dual wielding you cannot use a shield.

I think adding it as a skill could be more complicated since it doesn't address the OP issue like my simple solution.After all only a very dextrous warrior could effectively dual wield.So dexterity should be the determining factor.

I see it as a good way to potentially "mop up" since finishing off a target with the first weapon would allow immediate attack with a second weapon of the next target.
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