Conspiracy pentagon airplane (in Off-topic)

check out the website it has a nice video for you all Truth

9/11 conspiracy theories are a disgraceful blemish on our country. I don't mind silly conspiracy theories about things like corporations or "did we really land on the moon" but this kind of stuff is just....irreverent. Especially to those whose lives were lost in the tragedy.

Well said OB, please don't exploit that day or the people who were lost on that tragic day.

it is sad that lives were lost. I am just not sure by whom.

"9/11 conspiracy theories are a disgraceful blemish on our country. I don't mind silly conspiracy theories about things like corporations or "did we really land on the moon" but this kind of stuff is just....irreverent. Especially to those whose lives were lost in the tragedy."

While I sort of agree with you, Fruitscapades, you should probably be careful calling other conspiracies 'silly'. While you may think this is the worst thing that has ever happened in your life, other people may view the JFK conspiracies or even the 'did we land on the moon'-conspiracies much the same way.
Sensitivity works both ways. ^_^

Actually, I don't agree with you at all, I'm just being diplomatic for diplomacy's sake and that's insulting to both you and me.
I really don't feel conspiracy theories take away from the personal tragedy of the event in any way. In fact, I'm pretty sure a lot of these people feel just as sorry for the people who died as the next guy, only they believe another person is responsible.
Most conspiracies are bull though, no denying that.

I believe the only conspiracy involved is similar to the Pearl Harbor gig.Just like U.S. intelligence in 1941 knew the Japanese ships were coming they also knew before 9/11 the terrorists were here in this country and they let them go so they could have their war.

I was a soldier and making some one pay for the tragedy of 9/11 is a good cause but only if you are getting the guilty party.

The many lives of our troops lost in a diplomatic war is no less a tragedy.

I just get a bit annoyed that people make a giant deal about 9/11. More Afghanis and Iraqis have been killed "For freedom" than were killed in both attacks. Sure it was the first attack on american soil in 50 years but realistically making a massive deal out of terrorists all of the sudden is just sad. Terrorists have been around for a century. The only reason it HAS become such a big deal is that it was an attack on two american monuments. not to mention it's the second attack on the world trade center if anyone remembers. If it were a strike on a shipyard it wouldnt have had nearly the same effect. Remember the lives lost but don't pretend it's a stab at every American individually. Nationalism only creates more problems.

Just my say, feel free to flame away. Since this is the flame community.

dun dun dunnn....

Oh, and I don't remember any war happening on American soil in the past 50 years. I think the closest is the civil war, and that ended in 1865, which is a whole 90 years added to that 50... then another three years...

^Pearl Harbor.

Seriously though, you can't really put weight into conspiracy theories that aren't backed up well. It's a waste of time.

The evidence they cite are always unreliable witness accounts, as well as statements given before any significant evidence had accumulated. These videos then ask you to analyze the way it looks like there is no plane there. Tell me have you seen an actual plane crash into a building before? Are you an expert on what would happen? No, and neither are they; merely amateurs picking through photos making conjectures.

Do you think any of these witnesses had heard a plane crash before? How can they distinguish between a plane and a missile. The only place I've seen them is either a plane crash or a missile is aftermath in the news, or in movies; I'm not going to trust mine or any other eyewitness's judgment on missiles versus planes.

The most simple argument against this ludicrous theory of course is that if the government was so great at keeping this attack on itself secret, then how come there has been no leak about it whatsoever. Do you really think the government can pull off something that perfect and have no one find out? They can't even keep scandals quiet.

"Oh, and I don't remember any war happening on American soil in the past 50 years. I think the closest is the civil war, and that ended in 1865, which is a whole 90 years added to that 50... then another three years... "

Yep pearl harbor. Last foreign war before that was the spanish american war. And before that the war of 1812 where they burned down the capitol. I might be missing one. Guess I'm the Alpha male of history today

"The evidence they cite are always unreliable witness accounts, as well as statements given before any significant evidence had accumulated. These videos then ask you to analyze the way it looks like there is no plane there."

These are always the best because they blatantly ignore the hundreds of people who apparently hallucinated the exact same thing at the exact same time. A lot of people saw those planes coming from far away and could see the entire thing, but apparently those people don't exist as far as conspiracy theories go.

"The most simple argument against this ludicrous theory of course is that if the government was so great at keeping this attack on itself secret, then how come there has been no leak about it whatsoever. Do you really think the government can pull off something that perfect and have no one find out? They can't even keep scandals quiet."

To be fair, this is also the absolute weakest argument against conspiracy theories because a lot of people are very, very good at spinning stories.
Now I'm not saying I believe any of this but I can imagine how this is exactly how counterintelligence and mis/disinformation in war works; I deserve to get flamed for using this comparison but watch a bunch of episodes of X-Files, they explain the whole thing hypothetically a lot better than I could.

The bottom line when it comes to every single conspiracy there is regarding 9/11 is:

What difference does it make?

Who cares if they lied to you. You've been force-fed lies your entire life, why should you care now? Maybe 'they' did do it. They being which ever conspiracy target you wish. Who cares? What if someone got on CNN tomorrow and announced "Yep it was us! Caught us!" You think it would matter? Do you really think the completely docile American public is going to do ANYTHING about it?

Civil war? Unlikely.

Lets face it... Any rights you think you have; are given to you by the people who control you. Any privacy you think you have; is a joke. You work yourself to death to barely survive while others are making record profits off your slave labor; Your children spend 10 hours a day watching T.V. and playing video games. GPAs are at a record low, the country is trillions of dollars in debt (that will never be repaid; the deficit will only increase)

A country of fat, ignorant, docile yet angry people, and you're worried about being lied to?

Two days (maybe 3?) ago a 42 year old women was followed into a store parking lot after almost swerving into a car. "Witnesses say the father got out and punched the woman in the face while his son attacked her from the passenger-side door.

According to officers, the woman was then pulled from the car and punched and dragged on the gravel parking lot. One of the suspects grabbed a baseball bat, but the woman found a box cutter and kept the men away from her until police arrived."

The sick thing? These men didn't go to jail... oh no way; jail is for the ruthless crimes, not punching 42 year old women in the face and attempting to hit a home run.

and I quote:

"The men were cited for assault, but not arrested"

Things of this nature happen every day throughout the nation, so excuse me if I just don't give a damn about "They". Sad for the loss of life? Yes. A tragedy? No. This whole Country is a tragedy, epic fail after epic fail.

Who cares; the majority is going to be force-fed the "truth", and there's nothing that's going to be done about it.

Remember Bush made it to a second term.

The same president who has been caught lying to the American people time and time again... yet not even 10 years ago, the entire population was in an uproar over who the president was sleeping with?
Even more upset that he lied about it?

Please.

Conspiracy theories are for teenage boys who think they are individuals. Let's leave this sort of thing where politics belongs; Anywhere but here. I don't know about most people, but I play the random game to pass some time in a carefree way, to "escape" real world problems for a period of time.

And I will continue to do so long after never visiting this thread again.

(There is my rant for the night! No, I don't hate America; just the people in it!)

It was Kyle!!!

Agree almost entirely with Flatcap's first post. No flame for you.
This is a good sale on the pentagon crash, will admit that while not buying in, but does not support any WTC conspiracies. Don't instantly group the two guys. Be more objective.
Personally find it silly in my area no one mentions the pentagon hit on the sidewalks unless it's about that controversially small hole.

Jiraiya, please refrain from using semi-colons. You don't know how to.

I'm with Cubicle and Mirick. Who knows what a missile looks or sounds like? How long did the people who were right near the Pentagon actually have to see it coming? It's going 500mph into a building, so they see a tubular blurr and make an assumption.

And there's the "We don't have access to certain information or footage, but if we did, we know what incriminating images there would be!" Nice.

Pearl Harbor? Yeah, that does count as a war on American soil. Well, not a war, but Pearl Harbor alone makes part of that war fought on American Soil. I guess I was just thinking of a full blown invasion, troops invading and everything. =P

Haha, custard, I agree with you on the semi-colons part. xD

For all of you anti-conspiracy posters... can one of you give one valid reason why the FBI would show up within 5 minutes of the "plane" hitting the pentagon to confiscate ALL tapes? And why they then would refuse to release the footage?

Everything about 9/11 points to a conspiracy of some sorts. Much the way the Gulf of Tonkin, the sinking of the Lusitania, and Pearl Harbor were. If you are unfamiliar with those events all 3 of them were the catalyst for us entering Vietnam, WW1, and WW2. Yet the Gulf of Tonkin was a complete fabrication, the Lusitania was intentionally sent into German waters, and the attack on Pearl Harbor was known about hours prior to the attack taking place.

Why is it so difficult for people to wrap their minds around the fact that the government needed a reason to enter the Middle East (oil)?

We'll probably never know.. we can only assume.
The video is obviously too bias to be taken seriously, but it displays some good points about our own actions on that day.
But there's so much deceit in this video that it's like watching American media, only Truth is playing the other side.

Jiraiya, though you did abuse the semi-colons (a crime I'm sure I myse;f am guilty of from time to time ~_^), most of your points were quite valid.

To all of those backing conspiracy theories:

Prove it, or give up. there is no middle-ground. If you insist on the middle-ground, then I ask "What if you're right?" Going to go to war with your own country? Gonna move? Where? France?! :P

A bit about why these are so widespread:

Conspiracy theories are started by those who can cleverly twist words, and occurrences. I am quite positive, that with some research, I could "prove" to millions of people that *aliens* were responsible for 9/11 and that the government covered that up, while simultaneously convincing another group of people it was the Russians... Fact of the matter is that ya can't spell gullible without u. To those nodding their heads, congratulations, you finally get it and now know the "truth". To those thinking "me?" right now, YES you! To those with files and pictures readily available to help me prove aliens responsible, now that you've read this reply, you need to forward it to at least 10 of your friends, or your dog will get pinned for the murder of your next door neighbor next time the phone rings at exactly 3:02pm.

Again...


Conspiracy theory = unproven = useless
Conspiracy proven = then what? (This isn't a state farm commercial :P)

err state farm uses "now what?", don't they? :P

I agree with Jiraiya but I know that the sheep in america will do nothing.Who do you all plan on voting for?The republicans?,,,,the democrats?.....business as usual?I myself realize the people in office are just pawns whether they know it or not.When it comes time to vote I am writing Ron Paul in.The rest of you might not know who he is,if your interested look him up.Otherwise about the best thing you can do,because people who "see" are a minority,is show those in power that you can see by writing in anything but democrat and republican.Hell vote for Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck.Or write in "does it really matter".I see this as about the only way to make our voices heard.If your worried about "wasting your vote" your a fool.

Err.... Conquest,

The Lusitania was sunk of the coast of Ireland....

And the Germans had advised the people boarding in New York that the ship would be entering a war zone and would be considered a target since she was a British vessel (neutral vessels were not targeted at that point).

As for the ship sailing into a war zone, since Britain was the intended destination that was somewhat to be expected.

Refuted conspiracy theories are worse than unfounded ones.

Time to win an argument.

"For all of you anti-conspiracy posters... can one of you give one valid reason why the FBI would show up within 5 minutes of the "plane" hitting the pentagon to confiscate ALL tapes? And why they then would refuse to release the footage?"

Seriously asking this? They were attacked it was an embarassment, and they don't want to reveal any possible vulnerabilities. The government is overly secretive about a lot of things.

...Or of course something must be there proving they did it because they didn't release it? An assumption is not proof. -rolls eyes-

"Everything about 9/11 points to a conspiracy of some sorts. Much the way the Gulf of Tonkin, the sinking of the Lusitania, and Pearl Harbor were. If you are unfamiliar with those events all 3 of them were the catalyst for us entering Vietnam, WW1, and WW2. Yet the Gulf of Tonkin was a complete fabrication, the Lusitania was intentionally sent into German waters, and the attack on Pearl Harbor was known about hours prior to the attack taking place."

Everything points to what? Your gut feelings don't change what happened now do they. The war was a disaster, show me the profit.

The United States had a presence in Vietnam, thats why the ship was there to be attacked... We were doing stuff in Vietnam before the war was escalated; you're telling me that that wouldn't cause people to attack us?

"It was a rainy day, but throughout the voyage the weather improved and on May 7th, the Lusitania, under the command of Captain William Turner, was nearing the Irish coast."

Sorry the Irish coast is not German waters. America was provoking the Germans by supplying Britain and France (not a conspiracy), but the Lusitania was not in German waters.

If you've ever seen Tora Tora Tora! The Japanese ambassador was declaring war right before Pearl Harbor. Even so it was Japan's idea to attack, we would've been launched into war if we were ready or not, so what difference would it make if we defended or new ahead of time? It still wouldn't have been a plot by our government.

"Why is it so difficult for people to wrap their minds around the fact that the government needed a reason to enter the Middle East (oil)?"

It's not difficult to imagine, but lack of proof is not proof. Not to mention the war has been anything but profitable.

"I agree with Jiraiya but I know that the sheep in america will do nothing.Who do you all plan on voting for?The republicans?,,,,the democrats?.....business as usual?I myself realize the people in office are just pawns whether they know it or not.When it comes time to vote I am writing Ron Paul in.The rest of you might not know who he is,if your interested look him up.Otherwise about the best thing you can do,because people who "see" are a minority,is show those in power that you can see by writing in anything but democrat and republican.Hell vote for Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck.Or write in "does it really matter".I see this as about the only way to make our voices heard.If your worried about "wasting your vote" your a fool."

If you must know, I am planning to write in Ron Paul as well. Not being a sheep is not the same as assuming something off of no proof.

IN CONCLUSION
LACK OF PROOF DOES NOT EQUAL PROOF

Jebus, all this conspiracy crap is annoying. I'm more on the side of Hatch, in saying, "OK, you're right. What are you going to do about it?"

What's worse is the generalizing about Americans. I would not consider myself a patriot. America could use a more than few steps back in the right direction. But find me a country that doesn't have it's share of corruption and stupidity, and I'll sell it to you.

Some of the 'logic' used in the video:

The plane was never found - at full speed, it's likely it's only shrapnel and the rest pretty much disintegrated.

Eye witness accounts - how many of them regularly watch airplanes flying full speed at heights that low?

It only made a small hole in the third wall - very likely that only the nose went through, in which case there would be a relatively small almost round hole.

"Planes mess up the ground" - obviously it didn't.

The photograph - who can tell from about 8 pixels of airplane?

Basically I think this "Darren Williams" is an un-patriotic butthole who has nothing else to do. He probably thinks that we never went to the moon and that UFOs have visited our planet. He can go kill himself for all I care.

But that's just my point of view, you can have your own.

Jiraiya, you are entitled to your opinion, but please don't ever again generalize about a country in such a negative way; especially MY country. I live here and love it. Why don't you go dis China, or Mexico? They have plenty of corruption in the government too.

ﾓThings of this nature happen every day throughout the nation, so excuse me if I just don't give a damn about "They". Sad for the loss of life? Yes. A tragedy? No. This whole Country is a tragedy, epic fail after epic fail.ﾔ

You realize that you are calling America a failure right? A country who has played a major role in both of the world wars, who practically saved Europeﾒs economy during the time, a country who fought an unlikely war against the power house that is Great Britain for their freedom, and again in 1812. I will give you that our economy is not doing well right now, wherever you live, has probably not done perfectly all the time either. Do not say that any country is a failure, odds are if the country even exist, then it probably not a failure.

ﾓRemember Bush made it to a second term.
The same president who has been caught lying to the American people time and time again... yet not even 10 years ago, the entire population was in an uproar over who the president was sleeping with?
Even more upset that he lied about it?
Please.ﾔ

Please remember that he did not win the popular vote. In relation to President Bill Clinton, personal affairs do not affect peopleﾒs ability to be president. The American people are angry when being lied to about the economy and the government. The reason people were in an uproar during the Clinton presidency was because of the media, did you see the country in an uproar during JFKﾒs presidency?

ﾓA country of fat, ignorant, docile yet angry people, and you're worried about being lied to?ﾔ

Please do not call an entire country fat, ignorant ,or docile, America is a country just as diverse as yours, probably more. If you feel like saying this about America say it to you own people not to us, and donﾒt ask for help in a world war. Finally, yes, the intelligent Americans actually do care about the country and care about being lied to, so as I said once, donﾒt generalize people.

ﾓYour children spend 10 hours a day watching T.V. and playing video games. GPAs are at a record low, the country is trillions of dollars in debt (that will never be repaid; the deficit will only increase)ﾔ

Unlike almost every other country in the world, we test every kid in America, as well as send them to school. Please do not GENERALIZE, again. Also, look at the last president without a deficit, you might find that it was not that long ago.

ﾓCivil war? Unlikely.ﾔ

143 years is a short time for a country is it not?

I hate generalizations. Sometimes it feels like people like to just point at society and say "it fails, it sucks, they are to blame". But when you say that, it at the same time is like a proclaimation to give up. To give up trying.

It's like going up to someone and saying "you're retarded". It is a condemnation, there is no attempt to enlighten or to understand the person, there is no solution.

My point? It's easy to hate on society, because there is no attempted solution. It's very IN now for that reason. Instead of thinking "how can we make things better?" it's "everything sucks, everyone is out to get you, give up while you can."

Couldn't help myself coming back (; I live in America. Not by choice, by lack of options. My point wasn't to give up. It was that it doesn't matter if you were lied to, you're not going to do anything about it anyways.

LOL and you really think America would be able to have a civil war?

That would take a very large, well supplied, well trained ARMY... News flash, there is no state armies... there are united military branches, all controlled by the same people you would be fighting against.

It would be Waco all over again.

Our own countries counter-intelligence knows this. Our phone conversations are recorded without our consent, our emails are read, our right to gather is null and void, it just couldn't happen.

If you tried to start any sort of "movement" you would eventually (sooner than later I think) you would be in jail for a whole platter of crimes faster than you could say "freedom of speech".

Speech isn't free, and it comes at a high price... Peaceful protests turn into riots and the focus of the situation completely changes. That's how this system works; once the rioters are subdued (and just because news of smaller riots don't make CNN headlines, they happen all over the country. I myself have witnessed 2 in the last 2 years)

"Riot"... what a joke, more like police finding a reason to shut people up.

(Sorry I can write a lot sometimes, and I was drunk last night when I wrote that haha)

Point is there is (I hope) that there is nothing you can do about it, does that mean to give up or anything? No. Just don't dwell on pointless things and get bent out of shape over the way things are.

As far as generalizing the American people, obviously I don't mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON, but it's a situation where it's the LARGE majority.

I've been to many other countries so maybe I see America for its "failures" it is based on other societies...

If you've visited Korea, Tokyo, Italy, Sweden all of these places boast a vastly superior culture that really shows the flaws of USA when witnessed. We just have more money than they do. I wonder how long that will last with our economy the way it is?

If you haven't noticed the markets, then you might just be ignorant, but America is being bought out by "foreign Investors" a prime example is Budweiser, the king of beers is no longer American Owned. Ouch.

:S keep in mind we are talking about the negatives here, it's really easy to point out the good in America too, but that's not the focus of the conversation. (There IS plenty of good in America, I'm just saying don't dwell on the things that you have no power to change, you'll just get angry)

(Me and my darn books :O)

(;

The sky is falling!!

Jir, I wasn't targeting you. And I have no idea how we've gotten to this topic of labeling America "good" or "bad".

Sorry, prolly my fault. DERAILED!!!

So I watched the video, and yeah pretty shady, I don't believe that a 747 hit the building at all... Stuff doesn't add up :(