Hal vs. Kano-san (in General)


Relic September 18 2008 11:29 PM EDT

Here is the first round of melee against Bast.

Hal's shot went wide of Kano-san
Jam takes damage from his own Decay (105152)!
Jam's Decay hit Kano-san [38232]
Butter takes damage from his own Fireball (202337)!
Butter's Fireball hit Kano-san [2239310], Hal [858217], Jam [924604]
Butter cries "Ma! This toast is BURNT!"
R.I.P. Hal, Jam

Kano-san pounded Hal [335213]
Kano-san fractured Hal [541258]
Kano-san fractured Hal [477129]
Kano-san pounded Hal [357963]
Kano-san pulverized Hal [533679]
R.I.P. Kano-san

My Hal completely whiffs against the Jiggy Familiar, while the Jiggy Familiar _quintuple_ hits my Hal. Holy crap that is crazy. My base to hit is 100 and bonus to hit is 244 with my Hal. How am I missing the Jiggy completely?

Relic September 18 2008 11:30 PM EDT

Not to mention my tattoo is over 400k level higher...

Little Anthony September 18 2008 11:30 PM EDT

60% dex pen.

QBsutekh137 September 18 2008 11:32 PM EDT

Have you calculated his dexterity, plus the Evasion granted by his inherent UC? I would bet his base in melee is already 2 hits, and his UC adds three more? I would also bet quintuples are really, really rare? Just a guess? I would think quads are far more the norm.

He a big Jiggy, that be very sure, and you are on his playground (melee). Do you have reason to expect something else?

QBsutekh137 September 18 2008 11:33 PM EDT

Where did you get such a massive tattoo?

I suggest you get Kano-san killed in ranged. That's what I do. *smile*

Relic September 18 2008 11:35 PM EDT

My Hal does not get quad hits let alone quints in ranged. Shouldn't I be hitting at least as much as the Kano-san? I mean he only has like 40 more rounds to hit in. :P

three4thsforsaken September 18 2008 11:35 PM EDT

wow! I might even consider using jiggy, though survivability in ranged is quite difficult with MM and FB

QBsutekh137 September 18 2008 11:36 PM EDT

Well, his evasion is kicking in in Ranged...surely you get some quads by rounds 4 and 5? I would agree, that seems weird. What is the dexterity breakdown between Hals and Jigs? What does Bast have Junctioned?

QBsutekh137 September 18 2008 11:39 PM EDT

You don't have any Junction. Bast does, and has EBs on there, probably basking in the glory of a 150% increase on the effect.

You should seriously think about some Junction. You could add Beleg's, STR, and DEX all over that massive Hal.

That Jig has some step, if you know what I mean. You could ask her what his post-battle dexterity is. *smile* I bet it is in the realm of "scary big".

Relic September 18 2008 11:50 PM EDT

I start with 3,889,506 DX on my Hal.

After ranged my DX drops to 1,555,802.

I ran through a couple battles against Bast and the most I hit any of her minions in ranged is 3 times (once), the very last round of ranged I hit her familiar twice for half the damage she does to me in melee per hit. Below is a sample battle.

Photobucket

QBOddBird September 18 2008 11:51 PM EDT

Sounds like you should probably consider using JUNCTION to get the DX advantage on Bast.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] September 19 2008 12:10 AM EDT

"I would bet his base in melee is already 2 hits, and his UC adds three more?"

If by his base you mean base to-hit, it's actually 50 for UC, meaning that he has at least 351 additional cth against you in order to quint you 1% of the time. I would guess Bast's Jiggy get's somewhere around 270 PTH from her UC (that would be a (225) effect, or 4500 Unarmed Combat in post-battle stats). That leaves 81 cth, which is easily attributable to a DX advantage.

If she has the full 160 cth DX advantage against you, she probably quint hits you a lot. If she hits you six times per round, her UC level is bigger than I thought it was.

Bast: would you care to share with us some of your post-battle stats?

Colonel Custard [SeeD] September 19 2008 12:12 AM EDT

"get's"? I'm sorry. That's horrid. I don't know how that happened. Maybe if spellchecker didn't catch stupid things all the time, I would pay more attention to what it tells me. Don't let Bast see that one.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 19 2008 2:53 AM EDT

50 base CTH means a max of 150 dex CTH, meaning 251 PTH minimum for quints.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 19 2008 10:06 AM EDT

You shouldn't be effective against the JKF, it's designed to counter you.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 10:20 AM EDT

50 base chance to hit means just that... 50 base chance to hit.... From what I have gathered and tested... it goes something like this.

You have your Base CTH, your Bonus CTH (weapon +/pth), and you have Dex chance to hit up to a max of 100. First you would start with your base chance to hit which is 100 for Elb, 40 for 2 hand melee weapons, 60 for one hand, etc... then you add your bonus CTH... or Pth... after that is all done you get to figure out who has the dex advantage and then add that in as a set point from 0-100. After all that is done you get your opponents evasion and or DB removed from your cumulative CTH... and that equals your total CTH on a per shot basis.

its actually quite simple once its worked out.... and from what I have figured... if you have enough evasion/DB to take their CTH to 0 they will not hit you at all ^_^

QBsutekh137 September 19 2008 10:22 AM EDT

I still think Relic needs to get that Hal some gear and some Junction before we are even comparing apples to apples... Bast's Jig has extra STR and extra DEX, while the Hal has nothing extra, not even Beleg's for a pretty easy 40-45% more damage on those hits.

QBJohnnywas September 19 2008 10:33 AM EDT

Nice to know Hal has a weakness. Just as it should be IMO.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 10:34 AM EDT

"its actually quite simple once its worked out.... and from what I have figured... if you have enough evasion/DB to take their CTH to 0 they will not hit you at all ^_^"

jon's changelog for evasion stated that it could only take the cth down to weapon base though. so for the elb and hal that is 100 percent cth i believe.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 10:38 AM EDT

Okay Dude.... then explain how I can make Some Hal miss me in Ranged...

QBsutekh137 September 19 2008 10:55 AM EDT

A dexterity gap can still eat into even that base cth, correct? Do you have a dexterity advantage over the Hals you make whiff, Drac?

Wow, the abbreviation for "chance to hit" is not in spell check. How absolutely abysmal.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 10:57 AM EDT

You tell me if I have Dex advantage Sut.... i have a total of 28 dex on my evasion minion and when i tested with DB I had 20 dex ^_^

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 19 2008 11:00 AM EDT

it's CTH not cth
he has no dex period...

QBsutekh137 September 19 2008 11:52 AM EDT

Then how he makes the Hal miss is a pretty good question, I would say.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] September 19 2008 12:02 PM EDT

I agree.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 19 2008 1:24 PM EDT

How big's you EC Drac? Or is it just base?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 1:30 PM EDT

just a bit above base ^_^ 5k effect... I've already tested my theory on several folks on my fightlist... and that's the only conclusion I can come up with... is that the base can still be evaded...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 2:05 PM EDT

what is your post battle evasion stats? are they always missing in the first two rounds if at all? are they always hitting in the others?

as i have stated in another thread, with 211 post battle evasion i do see misses sometimes in the first two ranged rounds, never after that. then from the same people i am getting multiple hits on my minion in the final ranged rounds and sometimes in melee.

if my evasion was reducing them past base CTH on their weapons then they wouldn't get multiples in later rounds would they? with that being said, do we still have any ranged penalties going on at all, intentional or not?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 2:08 PM EDT

my Post evasion is 200 and the smaller hal on my list does miss me in ranged sometimes. the larger ones don't cause they have too much CTH total... but the small ones miss. And in Melee I even get misses from some of the larger hals...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 2:09 PM EDT

do the same ones that miss ever get multiples?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 2:20 PM EDT

I never see Doubles in Melee though I don't think. I do see doubles in Ranged from the bigger Hals...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 19 2008 2:20 PM EDT

Soxjr misses me in round 1 1/10 times... I've got 304 total evasion from my dbs and base dex

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 2:22 PM EDT

the ones that miss though, do you also sometimes see double hits from them later in ranged or melee?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 2:22 PM EDT

nov, does sox pretty much always hit in the last rounds of ranged as well?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 19 2008 2:27 PM EDT

he never missed except in round 1...

I suspect what were seeing here is the application of penalties leading to random misses... best way to test that would be fighting much smaller PTH hal or ELB

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 2:29 PM EDT

"I suspect what were seeing here is the application of penalties leading to random misses... best way to test that would be fighting much smaller PTH hal or ELB"

yeah, that is exactly what i thought...i have seen nothing that would make me think that evasion can still reduce the base weapon CTH.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 19 2008 2:34 PM EDT

a much smaller PTH bow on Reda Luu has very similar effect... occasional misses in round 1 followed by clean single hits

Draco I think is working on finding someone with a +0 bow to test against

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 2:38 PM EDT

Well I tested against Sickone's char that has a +0 Elb but he uses a toa... The results were 0/1/1/1/1/1 and 1 hit in melee as well...

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 2:41 PM EDT

another run against it pulled all single hits in ranged and two misses in melee.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 2:42 PM EDT

so that means evasion cannot eat into base weapon cth, correct?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 2:47 PM EDT

I would assume not, now from the testing but if Jon comes in and says that there are no ranged penalties to CTH then I wouldn't know what to tell you then.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 2:53 PM EDT

that is pretty much what i thought as well. it still does seem odd to me that some can miss me early in ranged and then get doubles later. i figure we gotta have ranged penalties or bugs. : )

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 19 2008 2:56 PM EDT

Maybe the Melee Penalties for Ranged weapons are eating into the base CTH as well as Dex/PTH.

No idea about Ranged rounds though. :/ Maybe a fault with the changed Ranged bonuses to Evasion?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 19 2008 2:58 PM EDT

QBGentlemanLoser 2:56 PM EDT
Maybe the Melee Penalties for Ranged weapons are eating into the base CTH as well as Dex/PTH.

I'n pretty sure this is how it is already... but the whole idea of some misses in ranged and some doubles and what not is a bit difficult to digest.

Rexozord September 19 2008 3:09 PM EDT

Unless (probably by a bug in the code) the ranged bonus to evasion can still eat into base CTH, which would explain why misses happen almost exclusively in round 1. Of course, I'm not entirely sure /when/ the range evasion bonuses were implemented, so my time-frame could be off.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 19 2008 3:16 PM EDT

there are, and have always been hidden penalties to hit in ranged...

Adminedyit September 19 2008 3:47 PM EDT

>Well I tested against Sickone's char that has a +0 Elb but he uses a toa...

it may be +0 but the ToA provides CTH to it so it wasn't really a +0

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 3:59 PM EDT

tat of 3.2 million is worth around 60 million. take 1/3 of that for 20 million which equates to about a 110 pth. draco has 200 post battle evasion stats, so that shouldn't matter right? his evasion would negate all weapon pth granted by toa and then some if i figured correctly.
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