Rolling Bonus Idea (in General)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 6:07 PM EDT

Okay, I have rolled around the rolling bonus idea in my head and I kindof seem to like it. It would allow current characters to keep competitive without putting all the emphasizes on 6 months of the character. I can't seem to find the downside to this, so I was wondering if someone could help me. Thank you, please do not turn this into a flaming thread.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2008 6:10 PM EDT

jon has said it is not an option due to the fact that it would reward laziness. that is really the only downside that matters.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 6:15 PM EDT

Well then I would invite jon to come here and look at this b/c this in fact would not invite laziness. The bonuses would be significantly less then those of NUBs and NCBs, and you would never be able to catch someone who was playing as often as you. NEVER. This being said it could also be implemented where the bonuses cut of at like 5% less then the actual percentage, to make it where you have to really outplay the top MPR to catch them. Slap on a "Largest Reward" cap and there you go, no laziness.

AdminTal Destra [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] October 7 2008 6:20 PM EDT

If you can implement at cache time then maybe its not so bad. But if you don't/can't then it would over tax the servers with everyone playing. How many people have the NUB anyways. Checking on your MPR vs lets say Little Anthony's would take a lot to do.

Warbringer October 7 2008 7:08 PM EDT

Maybe a bonus for all characters that gets smaller as you grow, and keep N*Bs. We need some kind of change because the way that things are no one is going to be able to catch LA unless he quits.

3D October 7 2008 7:17 PM EDT

I don't think it would reward laziness. The growth from the bonuses would only be really significant if a person plans on getting to the top level, and that requires work in any way you look at it.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 7:30 PM EDT

Yah 3D, like I said earlier, this promotes constant work, if you stick with the current NUB and NCB, then those people only have to work hard for 6 months with their 330%+ bonus. With this system, people would have less than 100% bonus much sooner than they would with N*Bs.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2008 7:40 PM EDT

i think what jon meant is that it would also work out well to slack for a bit, maybe even take six months off, then when you come back you get a larger reward. you could also say to heck with buying ba, spend all your money on upgrading your gear and know that you will get a larger reward for doing so.

i think all that is fine as the current system really penalizes vets. i have always been cool with new players getting a catch up system, but when that is the only way to play, then the system is broken. while the rolling bonus does have some issues, i do think it would be better than what we have. i especially liked the idea of tying to rolling bonus to ba regen or purchasable ba per day so that it isn't a no-brainer to reward time off.

i do think there is a solution out there that does allow new players to compete but not at the expense of vets and does not encourage the disposable team aspect that is so prevalent these days. with our community population dropping, what exactly can it hurt to try something new?

3D October 7 2008 8:00 PM EDT

If I remember correctly the game used to be 10ba per 10min, but I only returned recently. If this was true, then I think it disproves the fact that he doesn't want us slacking. With 20min between BA regen, it halves the time needed to play this game and get the full amount of BA.

Now if what I'm thinking wasn't true and it had always been 10ba per 10 min, then my argument is completely void.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2008 8:03 PM EDT

jon's reason for that change are found in the corresponding changelog:

Wizard'sFirstRule October 7 2008 8:04 PM EDT

I would prefer more BA more than any sort of bonus to XP. If there is a disproportional bonus to XP and I caught up, what's stopping Jon from giving a bigger XP bonus so that others will catch up to me?

3D October 7 2008 8:31 PM EDT

Thats the point, I think, to give the people who are behind bonuses, so if you overtake number 1, you are now the one to beat.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 9:24 PM EDT

Keep in mind 3D and others, NO ONE, and I mean no one, can overtake number 1 with a rolling bonus minus 5%, like I suggested. Players would only be able to get close to number 1 if they play at the same level, to overtake they will have to play more. This is how it should be, but not how it is now. As to helping vets, this system would help all vets excluding those in the top 10 or so more than the current system. Those who don't have 100M to run a N*B wouldn't have to.

3D October 7 2008 9:28 PM EDT

I see. So people with the same play time will never overtake one another, that is how it should be I believe. And just to support the idea, laziness would not be rewarded because they wouldn't be playing much anyways. And if they do start to play, then that is good for the game!

And just for clarification, the rolling bonus is for exp only, right? Silly me :)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 9:32 PM EDT

Yes 3D it would be just for xp; however, I think that there should be a cash bonus for NUBs similar to how the NUB cash bonus works now.

3D October 7 2008 9:40 PM EDT

And for the current N*B? Run them like normal and then apply the rolling?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 9:42 PM EDT

This, I think, requires the most thought. I thought maybe the best solution would just be apply the rolling bonus to all non N*Bers and let the current N*Bs run their run, then give them the rolling bonus at the end of it. This seemed like the fairest solution to me.

Tyriel [123456789] October 7 2008 10:00 PM EDT

"So people with the same play time will never overtake one another"

One of the few problems I see with a rolling bonus is described nicely in this out-of-context quote. :)

Nobody will be able to catch anybody active with a rolling bonus.

If there were to be a rolling bonus, rewards in general would need to be adjusted, to put more emphasis on fighting larger (higher PR) opponents, or possibly things like win-loss ratio (the more you lose on offense and defense, the less you earn on wins), which would obviously not be a gigantic factor, but would reward people who can manage to keep smaller characters off their back while still giving them an incentive to try and find ways to beat larger characters. Things like that.

A rolling bonus by itself will make LA even more impassable than he is now, unless there are some other changes to rewards, which could very easily make the new system more complex and convoluted than the current system. :/ Unless, of course, BA regen gets increased, which could solve that problem, but would go against Jon wanting to allow the Average Joe a chance to get near the top.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 10:04 PM EDT

Tyriel, people *would* get closer to LA. Give you a 50% bonus and you're going to start catching up right? This will just make the MPRs closer over time. That would cause the top 10 score to be based off of using your money well and your strategy. If that's not what the game is supposed to be about, I must be playing the wrong game.

Tyriel [123456789] October 7 2008 10:13 PM EDT

Perhaps I should have said 'catch and pass' instead of merely 'catch'.

Sure, people can get close to LA. But nobody will pass him. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobody. EVER. Unless, of course, they decide to pull a stunt like spending USD to buy minions.

Outside of USD, nobody will be very likely to pass anybody. Assuming equal BA usage (and fighting at least somewhat smartly), everybody X% away from LA will grow at a Y rate. All of them. They'll all be at 95% of LA's MPR, basically forever, unless somebody passes LA, in which case they'll become 95% of that person's MPR.

And, without actually experiencing it, I'll say that that sure sounds boring.

Even if somebody were to try and overtake LA, they would have to use their rolling bonus to its fullest extent (which would take months, or even years), and then buy at least one more minion. At that point, either the veterans are screwed (yay!) because they can't hire any more MPR, or maybe can't hire as much because, let's face it, there are very few if any huge single minions currently owned by veteran teams, and for good reason, (and are therefore perpetually stuck at 95%), or there has to be *some* kind of way for a stronger, veteran team to overtake a weaker, newbie team.

Keep in mind that newbies would, logically, still need a bonus to cash, otherwise they have even less hope than they do now. So they'll have the money (or a good portion of it) to hire that MPR, while a veteran is much less likely to without USD.

Am I making sense? I've probably segued halfway across the universe from my original point... xD

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 10:18 PM EDT

"Sure, people can get close to LA. But nobody will pass him. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobody. EVER. Unless, of course, they decide to pull a stunt like spending USD to buy minions.

Outside of USD, nobody will be very likely to pass anybody. Assuming equal BA usage (and fighting at least somewhat smartly), everybody X% away from LA will grow at a Y rate. All of them. They'll all be at 95% of LA's MPR, basically forever, unless somebody passes LA, in which case they'll become 95% of that person's MPR."

Can anyone pass anyone right now in the top 10 without using USD? By the time LA reaches 5M MPR 95% of LA's MPR would still 4.75M. That little difference would ensure that the best strat wins. Also, who passes people right now without USD? Do you know how much a full NCB run costs. Right now the system favors the top 20 or so and NUBs, not the veterans, not at all.

3D October 7 2008 10:21 PM EDT

ANOTHER upside of the rolling bonus - RETRAINS!

The rolling bonus is based of MPR, right? So when you retrain, the raised bonus will compensate for the lost exp!

AdminTal Destra [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] October 7 2008 10:24 PM EDT

retrains is another reason not to initiate this idea
then everyone would retrain over and over and not get penalized

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 10:27 PM EDT

You would still be greatly penalized and it would still take time to get back to where you were, and when you got back there, your bonus would be right where it was.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2008 10:30 PM EDT

i can attest to the fact that it sucks for vets under the current plan. i made it into the top 15 or so mpr and had for the longest time the largest minion in the game. i have now dropped to just inside the top 30 mpr.

if i was slacking this wouldn't bother me. i am however often in the top 3 for monthly clan mvp and rarely miss any natural ba and buy all available. my yearly clan mvp isn't indicative as we merged clans after january first of last year, so it will be a clearer picture after the first of the year.

i have retrained and lost a little mpr here and there, but not too much. it was really not that big of a deal when i was stagnant even, but it really is discouraging to be moving in the other direction considering the effort i put in on daily basis.

jon, while i can fully understand a desire to not reward laziness, is it not equally undesirable to fail to reward effort?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2008 10:33 PM EDT

one other thing regarding my activity, when people do usually beat me out as clan mvp, they are usually not in the 6/20 ba regen bracket. ; )

3D October 7 2008 10:38 PM EDT

Rolling bonus lets people retrain to try different strategies. Currently, retraining pretty much means no going back, unless you want to take MPR hits x2.

Little Anthony October 7 2008 10:46 PM EDT i still having a 4% bonus to growth for using roe?

if so, then 95% should be somewhat like 91%?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 7 2008 10:48 PM EDT

Keep in mind everyone that the 5% I threw up was a recommendation, not a final number. The touch ups can be done later.

Usul [CHOAM] October 8 2008 3:39 AM EDT

funny that you spoke as though it will happen :)

PearsonTritonRaveshaw October 8 2008 4:36 AM EDT

the challenge bonus combined with a rolling bonus would allow someone with a smart strategy to overtake someone with a larger team who puts in equal effort.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 8 2008 8:02 AM EDT

Sorry Ry, I was speaking in an if clause, I just didn't put the if there.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 9 2008 9:00 PM EDT

I thumbs up this. Just because its better than needing massive CB$ to spend on purchasing BA on a NCB and will make it take longer than 4-6months to get to the top.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 9 2008 10:32 PM EDT

Yah Josh, I find it silly how Jon said that this would allow people to be lazy, when with the current even updated system, people only have to try hard for 6 months, then barely have to try the rest of the characters life.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 10 2008 12:05 AM EDT

It may encourage laziness but I'm far more inclined to be lazy when I know I have no chance to ever reach the top then knowing when I do play I need to play a lot to actually catch up.

Right now its, "oh i missed a week a BA, darn I'm going to be top 275 instead of 260." With this idea I think it would be "I missed a week of BA, that just negated the 4 days before that, I better get to work and make up that lost time."

Also, people who quit are far more likely to return , or people who need a break even. I'd rather work on the same character my whole life of CB then every time I miss a month because I'm busy I need to make a new NCB and work my butt off another 4months while spending an extreme amount of CB$ on the NCB BA price.

Basically what I see happening with this idea is that a lot of people would get within 10% of the top MPR and a fair number to within 5% creating a lot more competition up there. Thats a very good thing.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 10 2008 12:10 AM EDT

Please someone listen to this ^ man, he is actually talking some sense.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 10 2008 12:31 AM EDT

In regards to the whole retraining issue, I'm not buying it. I'm having a hard time believing Jon or anyone who enjoys playing the game minds the idea of retraining being a more common thing. It would lead to far more strategy, more diversity among character builds, and just overall bring more to the game. Yes, its true, you can retrain and your bonus would go up. Yes, this means if you continue to not miss BA you will eventually reach the bonus threshold. But you'll have lost time and be reaching that threshold later. In which case you'd have to work harder and have a better strategy than more people then if you had not retrained and got to that point sooner. The retraining penalty could also be increased to make retraining less common but still feasible with this idea.

Usul [CHOAM] October 10 2008 2:03 AM EDT

If retrain is such a thing to fear, Jon can always increase the xp loss to like -10% ~ -20%. With the bonus in place, I really don't mind losing this much of XP :P Eventually anyone will regain the loss xp with the new rolling bonus if they play consistently, but it will seriously hinder people's "desire" to keep retraining.

Another good thing about rolling bonus is that it allows people to take some time to forge their own items along with their char growth, and still able to keep up the pace of everyone else. It makes every feature of the game really useful to everyone. Not like now, people have to choose either be a forger or progress their char and earn the money through fight or USD.

But of course introducing this bonus, means a lot more changes need to be made. Jon / NS might need more time to plan it out.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 10 2008 2:07 AM EDT

Keep in mind that some of us, Mainly me, forges their gear up then went about using characters to build the ultimate strat. Some like in the case of me, bought a char that already had a decent exp spread and built from there.

This is not a short team game... it is for the long term... if you want to win now, spend USD, that seems to be what everyone that wants to be on top does. I'll just sit back till all those that use Usd get bored, or get their heads under water and I'll keep chugging away this whole time ^_^

three4thsforsaken October 10 2008 2:33 AM EDT

Retraining is nothing to shake a leg at. Retraining any of my big stats would get rid of about half a week of NCB bonus time. Or perhaps a week or two during non bonus times.
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