T33: Simple (in Contests)

T33: Simple



Tournament Duration: Oct 19 12:00 PM EDT to Oct 25 12:00 PM EDT



Rules:
All minions must use AS, no minion may train HP, no DM.

You may not use Decay

You may not use tattoos

You may not buy items via auctions from any player participating in the tournament, including yourself.

You may not sell items to the store with your non-tournament character, in order to buy them or transfer them to another tournament character.

You may not retire your tournament character unless you plan on creating a new tournament character, or quitting the tournament. Please chatmail Slayer333 if you retire your tournament character early.

You must use at least 1/2 of the BA cap to be eligible for a prize in any tournament.

You may not intentionally "gimp" a character so that it is beatable by tournament characters.



Prizes:
An Elven Cloak [4] (+8)
A Pair of Alatar's Gloves [0] (+7)
An Elven Long Bow [6x250] (+50)

The winners may choose their prize in the order that they place.

How Do I Win?

Have the highest amount of battles won!
You may only fight other tournament characters after the 22nd of October.

Tournament by: OddBird

any minion limit?

No.

I like that the time duration is posted.

Very interesting win condition, me likey much more than MPR :)
BA cap still 3k ? Starter BA still 200 ?

I would assume so.

try out the starting 3k BA idea?

1500 BA to start, 4500 cap, little bit bigger bonus.

*rubs hands*
This should be interesting...
>:)

Ohhh.. this is going to be fun :).

you can count me in hehe let the fun begin lol

thanks slayer, and grats to the winners of the other tourney!

this should be fun

sweet, this is going to be a great tourney even though I'm not going to win.

so AS is the only ED then? does base AS satisfy?

You can use any ED, but you can't train native HP.
Any HP you wish to have have to come from trained AS.
Nobody is allowed to train DM at all (so you can rely on all those HP in the second part of the tournament, and have no way of cancelling GA nor any other enemy ED).

Or at least that's how I read it.

thats not right cause it says only as on every minion which means as is the only ed

Every minion must train AS, no minion may train natural HP.

Each minion has to train AS so AS is the only ED allowed. Or rather, the others are allowed, but you still have to train AS on each of your minions. GOOD LUCK!

I think we're getting even more confused here.

"Admin{CB1}Slayer333 8:01 PM EDT
Every minion must train AS, no minion may train natural HP. "

If you say "no minion may train HP", that's fine.
But do you really mean every MINION must train AS and only AS, or every CHARACTER must train some AS or some other ED, just no HP ?
Because if you say "every minion must train AS", that would mean Haste/GA/GS/VA are unavailable.

So... can we train other ED, or do you really mean that all minions must all train at least a base AS and no other ED ?

I took OB's words as meaning every minion must have AS trained, I'll ask him to clarify.

Because if that's what you mean, saying "training HP or any other ED than AS is forbidden, also DM is forbidden" would have been less confusing...

I don't see any ambiguity, all minions must use AS, so every minion must cast AS. Thus, all other EDs are ruled out.

Well, in the interest of gameplay, I'll say you can train other EDs, so long as all of your HP comes from AS.

The fact that no other ED's could be trained IS what made this tournament interesting. Gonna be pretty straight forward if everyone can train GA now.

Do other people feel this way?

i think it will be more interesting to say that all hp must come from as. you could add that as is the only ed allowed as well. i think it would be too restrictive to require every minion to have as though.

Yes

I agree with Conquest

Yeah. i say we leave it how it is, and the only ED you can train is ablative shield. It makes it more interesting.

I am liking it without GA.

You might as well just forbid GA then, just like you forbid DM... not kill off VA/GS/Haste too.
Does anybody have anything particular against those other three ED ?

I do sickone... your biased, that is what I have against them ^_^ But seriously... I think that just using AS would be fun... makes it interesting to see what people will come up with, without using GA and DM

I think I will quote Mark Rosewater, "restriction breeds creativity". I think having no ED except AS is fine.

Godwolf - can you elaborate? Just about the quote. It is interesting ^.^

basically is having more rules in place makes you think about other solutions. In CB context, having a tourny with no ED at all means you need to think harder to build a strat that works without ED, whether to go solo with base AS or max out 4 minion and take advantage of the AS.

Seing how this starts soon... which way is it afterall : all ED (for "more strategic freedom") or only AS (as some assumed from the start) ?
Either way is fine, just... let's be 100% clear on which way it is.

AS only, no other EDs

Duh that is said in the rules plain and simple
"All minions must use AS, no minion may train HP, no DM."

Note: 'bumping' posts to keep them at the top is inappropriate. Such replies will be deleted.

This is strange...

[T33] Sickone
Battles Total 106
... Challenged 52
... Won 50

BUT on the battle summary page...

ATTACKING : 47 won, 4 lost, 1 draw
DEFENDING : 29 "lost" (i.e. I won), 51 "win" (i.e. I lost)

The poor guy who persists in attacking me while he loses is [T33] Tallien (I have no idea why).
STILL...

Can somebody explain how I ONLY have 50 won battles ?
It should read 76, not 50.
Or, in case defends don't count, it should only read 47.
Either way, not 50.

Oh, and, apparently, I'm not getting any XP from me succesfully defending against him either.

No, cancel that last part, I am getting some, but very little.

P.S. Can I ask why you keep attacking me ?
Not that I don't like it (by all means, keep at it, please), but it might seem unfair to some other participants :)

Also, sorry for the spam, BUT...

[T33]Elite -> Spells [...] Decay [...]

Isn't Decay forbidden ?
I was wondering how he managed to beat all those huge HP unarmed abandoned tanks...

"You may not use Decay"

message the player and let them know in case they do not read the forums.

I missed the rule - retired and restarted.

Do we have to keep base AS on at all times on all minions or can we just leave that ED slot empty ?

Can I clarify something? The rules on character create page state all minions must 'USE' AS. I took that to mean no HP to be trained, all HP to come from AS. But reading through this thread it seems to be that should read all minions must 'TRAIN' AS.

Before I carry on with a char that's potentially rule breaking, what's the correct interpretation here?

A base AS is ok, all HP must come from AS. All minions must have at least a base AS trained.

Thanks for the clarification.

Slayer i want to retire my charactor and start over but it wont let me, because i bidded on an item?

start a new character and retire when you can

Ok... ouch.
Now, I KNOW what it says, still... with 1500 BA to burn on the tourn char...

"To avoid degrading the server's responsiveness, you may only request the recent battles page 400 times per day (i.e., from one cache flush to the next) which is plenty by any reasonable measure. You have nevertheless managed to exceed this quota.
Don't whine about this; just exercise some moderation tomorrow. "

Sniff bummer.
Never knew about this...

Just a warning to other tourney players :)

I think 1500 to burn is too much at once, it took me like 6 hours on and off to do it.

Yeah lol same here. I started over 3 times, and it took me just about all of yesterday to burn all that ba.

Of course, if you get frustrated for some inexplicable reason and no longer really care about wining or losing, you can easily burn 1+k BA in under 30 minutes :)

Took me around 2 and a half hours.

The funny thing to me - I don't even think that the people who wanted a lump sum of BA at the start are even playing this tournament. I had no intention of playing it myself as 1500 BA with limited targets is so much effort. But I was watching football anyway so I methodically plodded through my starting BA.

If anything I'd like to see the BA cap set to twice the normal of 160 for tournaments so that players aren't forced to come on ever 5 hours. Tournaments should not be decided by who logs on first and who then subsequently logs on every 5 hours to burn BA.

By the way, participation prize will be handled differently for this tournament, if you can burn 90% of the BA cap, you'll get the prize.

So were about half way done. Anyone have predictions? I know its a bit early.

i predict that someone quickly burning ba to make the participation prize will throw the whole tournament losing to me! /em evil laughter

#1 goes to Conquest unless someone loses to me a few times.

Accept for good old conquest is breaking the rules..



*Every minion must train AS, no minion may train natural HP.*

Goodbye 84 experience.

I had just hired a new minion and forgot to put a base AS, its not as if I was using a different ED. As if you any of you can kill me anyway...

Don't fall for his trap! Don't try to fight him!!!!! You'll just feed him wins!

tricksy and false little hobbitses!

So... after the end of this day, we can only fight other tournament characters, right ? Measured in server time ?
And if we fight any others, we're disqualified ? Or is it a hard-coded thing (we're unable to attack characters outside tournaments) ?
I'd hate to be reset because I accidentally disregarded a rule...

wow. i did not notice that little rule, i may have to add a minion tonight. To stay competitive.

I will intrepret after 22nd of October as from midnight 23rd of October server time, is it a reasonable intrepretation?

Correct, at midnight you will no longer be allowed to fight non-T characters. This is NOT HARDCODED, beware. :)

sounds reasonable to me and my interpretation as well. i have already made the switch to all t characters just in case though.

Well based on current battles fought the top 3 are myself, elitist, and foosa. Not necessarily in that order though since we have no control over who feeds us wins. And why anyone would attack myself or elitist is beyond me...

so the "top" player decides the next 2 places as well. He just have to attack the person he don't want to win!!

Maybe you misunderstand the rules to win: highest amount of battles won. Losses while defending are irrelevant.

I"m pretty sure i'll beat Fooza:)

"I"m pretty sure i'll beat Fooza:)"

confidence is great to have, confidence when faced with certain defeat is a sign of insanity. ; )

I don't think so:

Plagues:
... Challenged 2,875
... Won 2,429

Fooza:
... Challenged 3,569
... Won 3,527

And then consider that there are exactly 50 hours left in the tournament as of right now (10 AM EST) leaving you with a max possible of 1500 battles left to accumulate and a max possible 1660 assuming you have 160 saved (which you do not because you've been fighting in the last hour). Which means that even if you do not miss a single BA over the next 50 hours you not cap at 4500.

Which of course means that only 3 people can finish in the top 3: myself, elitist, and fooza.

Player///Battles as Challenger
[T33]Nafein (3778)
fooza (3571)
[T33]Elitist (3528)
[T33]CoCMage (2899)
[T32]SleeP (2875)
[T33] Sickone (2869)

hahaha:)

You must use at least 1/2 of the BA cap to be eligible for a prize in any tournament.

It still might work out. lol.

You are approximately -450 and he is approximately -150. You would need someone to attack you (and lose to you) over 300 times, win 100% of your remaining battles, cap at 4500 (assuming Fooza does), and hope that no one loses to him. Nope, I can say with 95% confidence that you are mathematically eliminated from the top 3. Assuming the current top 3 don't keel over and die rendering them incapable of completing the tournament.

hey now! i am only down by less than 50, not 150! ; (

Well Fooza attacked me and lost once, DO it 299 more times !! :)

i am sure i could beat ya now anyways, you could always find out?

How about you attack me and we'll see what happens ;)

" Plagues 10:05 AM EDT You must use at least 1/2 of the BA cap to be eligible for a prize in any tournament.
It still might work out. lol. "

Sorry to dissapoint, but...

"Admin{CB1}Slayer333 October 20 8:40 PM EDT
By the way, participation prize will be handled differently for this tournament, if you can burn 90% of the BA cap, you'll get the prize. "


Which brings us to the next nagging point : I hate it how I can never burn enough BA during tournaments.
Last tournament, I barely ended at around 2700 or so out of 3k burned, and I made an effort to be online most of the time.
This tournament, while, granted, there's still some time left, I'm barely at 3k burned BA... there's absolutely no way I can even hope to get to 4.5k burned, and I doubt I will even reach the "participation price" treshold unless I can completely wreck my sleeping "schedule" to be around.


There's simply too much BA to be burned in a too short of a time to even have a BA cap at all - people seldom reach it.
I thought the whole idea of a BA cap was to make things fair - well, how is it fair if the rest of the people can't even get close to it ?

So, for FUTURE tournaments, I propose either to make them last up to almost half longer and keep current caps, or keep them the same length but cut BA cap by at least a third.


In the proposed version, the previous tournament would have either lasted 9 days (two whole weekends plus days in between) and had a 3k BA cap and usual 200 start, or kept its length and had a 2k BA cap.
The current tournament would have either lasted the same 9 days (including two weekends) with the 4.5k cap and 1.5k start, or instead kept the same length and start but had a 3k cap.

Oh, well, hmm, correction, seems like the 2.7k was a memory from right before the end where I still had 160 to burn.
Still, my point remains, I was more active as usual and still didn't get to reach the BA cap.

*Wishing slayer wouldn't change the rules, half way down the thread.*

I'm still going to get within 90 percent though.

You need 4050 battles challenged and there's roughly 47 hours left (a max of 1410 more BA if you miss none).
Basically, you need 1k more, so if you miss more than 400 (13 hours) you're toast. Considering you will have 2 periods of sleep of up to 9 hours, that's almost 8 hours automatically lost. You get 5 more hours you can miss, tops.

I'll make it:). Thanks for the clarification.

i think that the full ba should be given with character creation. that way it is a strategic choice when to use it and ya never need wait on ba regen...we do enough of that in regular mode. : )

That's probably the sanest thing I've ever heard about tournament proposals :)

I dislike the current tournament system and the majority of proposed systems because regardless of how you work it you cannot win if you do not start early.

My proposal: have sign-ups 1 week prior to the tournament start date and require a sign-up fee.

Give each player 300 BA per day with no cap. No accumulating BA / day. Therefore on day 1 the maximum BA that a player could spend is 300. If a player does not spend his 300 BA that day then day two they would have 600 BA.

This would help alleviate the problem of people "missing" BA. By no means is it a perfect system, but it would allow everyone to play at their leisure without having to spend huge amounts of BA on day 1 (1500 is just too much).

The sign-up and sign-up fee would help cover tournament costs that, to my knowledge, slayer provides out of his "pocket". This would also give people a good reason to play through the entire tournament. And extend the length of the tournament to 14 days. Capped at 3000 BA it would give everyone ample time to participate.

Finally I would like to see some of the tournament formats rethought. Things like MPR are completely nonsensical to the idea of a "tournament" as there is one way and ONLY one way to win. Win % tournaments seem the most logical to me. Especially if you restrict the first 3-4 days of the tournament to NON-tournament targets ONLY. And every day thereafter to tournament characters ONLY. This would prevent the early birds from farming the late comers early on and mathematically eliminating them before they can get on their feet.

Of course I have many more thoughts on balancing out these tournaments and making them more competitive, but for now I'll leave it at this.

starting with the cap would also fix the same issues and would work without jon having to make changes to the system, which i doubt will ever happen given the handful of participants.

funding for tournaments comes from items sent to tourney prizes through character resets and such i believe, i could be wrong there but i am quite sure slayer doesn't fund them.

I'm not sure if I am able to start characters with more than 1600 BA, as that is a hard cap, I'll ask Jon about this, as I sort of like the idea as well.

No, I don't fund tournaments myself, not a chance :p

A big rework of how tournaments work is something Jon would have to do, and as much as he wants tournaments to be successful, I'm not sure this kind of project would interest him unless someone else could do the work.


Thanks for your input everyone, I'll keep trying to make tournaments more fun for ya'll :)

1600 BA to start with and a 3000 BA cap would actually work nicely too...

Thanks Slayer ^^

Starting with that much BA is so annoying thought it takes forever to get rid of.

It doesn't look like many people are even going to make 90% of the BA.

QUESTION:

Is it ok for us to put items on sale from the tournament characters set to expire just before the tournament ends (in the last 10-15 minutes before it, when all BA you could get are already spent) and then ATTEMPT to buy them with our regular characters ?

I as this because it goes againt the letter (but not the spirit) of the tournament rules (designed to prevent help given to a tournament character).

There's no "buy now" option for auctions by tournament characters, so you would be competing fairly with all possible buyers.
Also, there's no way to make use of the cash on the tournament character, as you only get it on it as it is set to expire.


So... is it ok to do or not ?
Seeing how there's two SoD gobbled up by tourney chars (me and another), I would much rather like to have the SoD return into the general population (even try to buy one myself, doesn't really matter if I succeed) than have them both gobbled up into nothingness.

I already tried this before I retired my charactor. If its an item that has any value to it, you will not be allowed to sell it directly to the store. Its hardcoded and it wont let you. Although you can sell it in auctions keep that in mind. I do not see anything wrong with this considering everyone has a shot at the item. I was wondering last night what would happen if you started an auction with a tourney charactor 15 minutes before they all get retired. Since we all know a charactor can not be retired if there are auctions still pending on it. I'm assuming you wont even be allowed its probally hardcoded or something but if not what would happen?

I was thinking 4 hour auction at 1$ starting bid and default 1k increment, started 4 hours 15 minutes before the official tournament end.

I dont see anything wrong with that, makes sense to me. :)

Chatmailed slayer too, hope he can post a response before time's up :)

Woo then I can spend my remaining money on SoD and sell a big one for the community! My way of community service haha

3D's response is pretty much the reason against auctioning off rare items from a tournament character. Tournament money is supposed to remain separate from normal money as much as possible, since you can now disenchant that money is even more easily converted to liquid cash, and many of the tournaments have pretty large bonuses attached to them, I am going to say no, you should not be auctioning items off of your Tourney char to be purchased by a normal character at any time.

Ahh boo me

-5

What if I disenchant and sell it at base or near-base ?
I could even disenchant down to the exact value I bought it at.
It would be as if I borrowed it for a couple of days off the auctions and returned it.

If anything, right now there's MORE tournament money into the open (whoever sold me the SoD has now a sizeable chunk of it), and by selling off the SoD I leech some of it back on a character that's going to be deleted ?

So... is it ok if the SoD is disenchanted back to original level, or even back to base level ?

^You make not having to do anything hard.

Well, I'd really hate it to see a couple of SoD dissapear from the game, they're rare enough already as it is.

Oh and by the way, on an unrelated note...

We already as good as have our tournament winners (AS Clown and me, we can at best hope for a participation prize, everybody else not even that) if nothing spectacular happens (like 3D not burning their last BA properly in the next 8 hours) - so start picking your desired prizes :D

1st Place : Nafein (Conquest) 4511 win / 4500 used
2nd Place : Elitist (3D) 4,392 win / 4,395 used
3rd Place : fooza (dudemus) 4,461 win / 4500 used

The only interesting thing up to this point is the fact dudemus snatches 3rd place in spite of the fact he's only #6 in both score and PR :)

Assuming I take first, ELB.

Oh great, I overslept and missed it altogether :(

yep, i wasn't going for anything other than the winning stat and had thought that if i was in the middle mpr and score wise, some others might try to beat me and lose as opposed to being at the top. i did gain a few wins back, whether it was due to that strategy i have no idea.

Ahaha
Overslept, didn't burn last BA. How lame :(

1st : fooza
2nd : Nafein
3rd : Elitist
participation prize : Sickone
rest : nothing
:|

Why is fooza number 1?

Ummm no.

Nafein ... Won 4,511
Fooza ... Won 4,461
Elitist ... Won 4,396

Oh sorry I copy-pasted in the order of used BA and forgot to shuffle him back to his place... fooza is #2, not #1 (Nafein first). Everything else is accurate.

Slayer I'll take the ELB as my first place prize. When you get a chance of course, no rush.

i will take the ec then! ; )

AG ^.^

Not meaning to be rude or anything, but did anybody get their prizes yet ?

i have not received mine yet.