SG/CoC (in General)


PearsonTritonRaveshaw October 21 2008 10:12 AM EDT

So, you know how FB is to MM as CoC is to SG? Well, it is. Anyway, MM has no bonus compared to fireball other than the fact that it hits from the back first. That can be strategically important in some situations, however that by itself does not make it a much better choice over fireball.
Well, because SG gets the AC bonus, shouldn't CoC get the same bonus, or a bonus of equal value? The reason I bring this up is because up in the high levels, SG is just completely dominant over CoC.

3D October 21 2008 10:14 AM EDT

Buff MM ^.^

Kefeck [BlackSmith] October 21 2008 10:14 AM EDT

To be fully honest i have a tougher time versus magic missile teams. I think it has to do with SG only hitting one minion and cone of cold hitting them all.

3D October 21 2008 10:14 AM EDT

And vs single minion, CoC does way more dmg because it is focused I think.

Lord Bob October 21 2008 10:19 AM EDT

No. If anything, SG needs a nerf.

QBJohnnywas October 21 2008 10:20 AM EDT

"The reason I bring this up is because up in the high levels, SG is just completely dominant over CoC. "

Not true. There are a couple of IF teams up here that tell me otherwise. CoC is fine as it is, it's just knowing how best to set up a team to use it.

3D October 21 2008 10:30 AM EDT

MM is countered very easily with a PL/TSA minion with an MgS, which are very common nowadays. SG hits hard almost no matter what, CoC has large dmg even if spread, and FB is a little weak but still hits harder than MM versus single minion because of concentration. FB is better at burning through PL/TSA than MM.

three4thsforsaken October 21 2008 12:05 PM EDT

CoC is alright. In order of it to surpass SG, it needs to be gigantic, and the minion that fires it must have a gigantic amount of HP to stop the 1 million backlash per round.

The only reason that CoC might be better than SG, is that there is no hiding from the spread damage and kill slots are taken out fast, and if the CoC is large enough it might end the battle faster than with SG.

Sickone October 21 2008 12:43 PM EDT

MM needs to hit lowest damage reduction minion first instead of back minion :)
And it could use a little damage buff too, nothing major, a 5 to 10% would do more than just fine.

I mean, come on, it's a MAGIC Missile :)

three4thsforsaken October 21 2008 1:05 PM EDT

Bad idea, then people would just have their lowest reduction minion in the front with a MgS. That would be prefect placement, put a AOI on it and you're gold.

MM should always go in the back, just as a balance that prevents people from slapping their dinky damage dealers in the back.

Sickone October 21 2008 1:12 PM EDT

I meant total reduction... the MgS would count towards the reduction :)

three4thsforsaken October 21 2008 1:22 PM EDT

How is that fair? MgK is the only thing that could seek for (only) mages in the past, and you know how much damage it does. Now it does even less than it did before, and it doesn't even have a use in melee. Now you want a spell that take out a team from the inside out ignoring the big forms of reduction (whatever that means, does it included ToE? should it do all our calculations for us?)? No thanks.

I don't see how it would benefit the game.

There is beauty in forcing minions closer to the front with fear of MM, great game balance.

If magic missile were to ever have a bizarre boost, I would say that it needs to score a set amount of hits. For example cut the damage into 1/3rd of it's formor damage, and then let it hit 3 times. This would allow for MM to get rid of kill slots faster. Of course this makes it vulnerable to GA, but maybe GA only affects the spell as a whole (like before).

As for a not-so bizarre boost, let it do more damage.

PearsonTritonRaveshaw October 21 2008 1:26 PM EDT

Well what I mean is the way I see it, Jon wanted to have shocking grasp to be the equivalent to CoC but on one minion, with a smaller base damage, in the same way that magic missile is to fireball. However, SG has an enormous and overpowered boost compared to CoC. So, if SG were to be it's 1 target minion counterpart to CoC, then it would need to have an equivalent boost. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be the same boost, just one that is of equal value.

QBJohnnywas October 21 2008 2:32 PM EDT

Magic missile used to hit front to back. So the default setting for a team was the damage dealer at the back. If that's a familiar then you've got four meat shields in front. Having a back to front damage makes team placement a lot more strategic instead of boring.

Cube October 21 2008 3:34 PM EDT

MM is perfect you people just underestimate it. MgS/TSA is not close to enough to block it.

Sacredpeanut October 21 2008 5:31 PM EDT

"Anyway, MM has no bonus compared to fireball other than the fact that it hits from the back first."

1) MM doesn't hurt its own minions in melee

2) On a team with two or more damage dealers, a minion training FB (or CoC) has to be the first damage dealer to attack each round - otherwise they do reduced damage when an opposing minion dies mid round. MM doesn't have this limitation.

3) MM performs slightly better against PL and GA.

On a single minion team, or a team with a very offensive strategy, FB is better, however in most other cases it is far from clear cut.

"The reason I bring this up is because up in the high levels, SG is just completely dominant over CoC."

I count 8, maybe 9 of the top 20 against which SG would perform better than CoC.
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