strat question (in General)

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 8:59 AM EST

what is the counter for a PL wall backed up by a big AS? I can't think of any way of dishing out enough damage with even slightly less MPR.

Ariac November 19 2008 9:04 AM EST

If it's backed up by any AS have you tried DM?

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 9:06 AM EST

I have a big DM, but after cancelling the AS, the PL wall train too much natural HP for my puny damage to kill.

Ariac November 19 2008 9:10 AM EST

I could see how a team with more than 1 minion would work, but I'm not sure a sfbm could do it.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 19 2008 9:12 AM EST

if the PL wall is upfront and no or little amount of AMF is used, decay. Or MoD which gives double damage to AS and ignores PL.

Otherwise big spread damage like CoC will do the trick.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 9:13 AM EST

what can you do with a multi-minion team other than doing what it is doing? multi-minion team don't get extra XP, just split it.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 9:14 AM EST

HB, both assumption doesn't hold. He has one minion training AMF, and a junctioned, HOC electric familiar.

Ariac November 19 2008 9:15 AM EST

No, but multi-minion teams get more room to do things. Like, getting decay to help slaughter that PL you're having problems with. I'm not saying your strat isn't viable, I'm just saying I don't think you're gonna be able to get passed those PL walls... Try fighting something else?

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 9:22 AM EST

that PL wall is in the middle of the team. so no targeted DD can get there quick.

Cube November 19 2008 9:26 AM EST

Sling of Death, though it'd cost quite a bit.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 9:35 AM EST

given a big DM to counter the AS, do you think I can split my XP into HP/STR/DX and still do enough damage for like 3m in 5 rounds (both side have HoC)

QBsutekh137 November 19 2008 9:44 AM EST

This is a question I've had for a while, and so far my main strategy has been to remove such teams from my fight list, sadly. :\ Even teams where the other minions only have 20 HP each and not a lot of AS can brush me off fairly easily since PL works like a force-field on them.

Than again, my FB is pretty puny up here (around 6 million), mainly meant for cleanup. But even my 11 million+ level MM can't eat through the back on some of these teams.

PL is a very powerful thing, especially when combined with AMF, TSA, and multiple MgS. Almost a phenomenon to tilt the whole rock/scissors/paper balance, since it has no laser-specific foil like some other strategies do (because it is defensive, and ranged damage is hard to generate). If you look at a team that seems to defend and attack well against a variety of opponents, I almost guarantee it is doing it with defense, and I almost guarantee the lynch-pin of that defense is PL.

The SoD idea in this thread is not too bad, and Hal's can sometimes do OK. Of course, then Evasion and EC can cause troubles for you. Your idea (just become like them) is one of the better ones too, again, sadly.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 19 2008 10:05 AM EST

The only thing in game is the MoD.

It ignores PL. Good for 20HP minions, or AS minions (which it deals double damage to) alike.

And now, with the Salvage Yard, there's no excuse to not have a large MoD.

If PL is a problem for you.

Well, if you're a Tank that it. Mages have no option.

QBsutekh137 November 19 2008 10:23 AM EST

Correct, mages do not have the option, I should have been more clear on where I was coming from with that in my post, since the MoD actually IS a laser-specific foil for PL. Specific to tanks, specific to one weapon, and specific to melee.

Maybe not really much of a foil after all. *smile*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 19 2008 10:39 AM EST

The MoD is actually the perfect foil for a PL wall with AS.

It doesn't get better than double damage and effect negation.

I've always been of the opinion that PL on teams made them weaker against spread DD, or at least that it should. More minions means more damage (as FB and CoC only reach max damage potential against 5 minions), focusing that damage via PL should kill off that PL minion rather quickly. Maybe the issue is ranged DD not doing enough damage in the first place?

Maybe removing the 10% flat reduction in damage would be a good place to start with PL?

QBsutekh137 November 19 2008 11:23 AM EST

I don't mind having to remove people from my fight list... My only question is: Are enough people using the MoD to be an effective rock to the PL scissors? A foil is only as useful as it is used.

So, even if it is melee and tank specific, if it is making PL folks suffer, I'm fine with my strategy not being able to beat them...

Lochnivar November 19 2008 11:38 AM EST

I find the MoD does quite nicely for me.

Against Opvines my humble 35mil MoD (unnamed atm) dishes out an impressive 15mil in damage.

That said, mine is about the 5th largest MoD so as a high level counter to PL/AS I think it is fair to say that 'well-used' is not an accurate description.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 19 2008 12:02 PM EST

when i was looking at my ncb setup, i had wished for a mod-wielding familiar that you could junction a soc to.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 19 2008 12:22 PM EST

"A foil is only as useful as it is used."

i disagree with this statement. the effectiveness and thus usefulness would remain constant regardless of anyone using it. unless we are talking about an item that is unusable in its current state, which doesn't seem to be the case. i like choice, if we choose not to use an effective foil we only have ourselves to blame, no?

QBsutekh137 November 19 2008 12:48 PM EST

Correct, dude. But if it doesn't get used because it is either too specific or just not effective enough, then it is not useful. I meant "not getting used because it isn't powerful enough" vs "just not getting used YET as people adapt."

Since it is tank-only, melee-only, and weapon specific, that mike make it more the former than the latter (I am not saying that is the case, that is the debatable part I am questioning). With the salvage yard in play, it being weapon-specific isn't that big of a deal. But the melee/tank requirements might still be.

Then again, melee-only isn't even that big of a deal these days with how weak reanged damage is... So maybe I am just a gripey mage. *smile*

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 19 2008 12:52 PM EST

i see. a mod familiar would fit the bill then, or perhaps a familiar that actually allows you to junction a weapon of choice.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 19 2008 12:54 PM EST

or a socketable familiar where you use the tat artist to place a melee or ranged weapon or both? you could change the weapon for a fee or something.

QBsutekh137 November 19 2008 1:32 PM EST

That would definitely be some interesting familiar-play!

We already have the DD familiars, UC on the Jig, and a bow on Hal -- is it time for completely equippable familiars via Junction? But still base the x and + of the weapons they heft on the tattoo level?

QBsutekh137 November 19 2008 1:33 PM EST

(Sorry for the slight hijack, Sox, but a familiar with a junctioned MoD would technically be an answer to your original post... *smile*)

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 8:15 PM EST

there is only 1 melee weapon that is a "perfect" foil, so I need to get big NW on a MoD (a choice), and a defense that last till melee (a choice) and probably using the same PL + AS combo (another choice)... I don't see this being good answer.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 19 2008 10:08 PM EST

this got me thinking, does training BIG HP/AS and PL a Halidon familiar work? HF give quite good damage, and PL should give enough survivability for HF to do the work, of course, GA will be a problem.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 20 2008 3:42 AM EST

"I've always been of the opinion that PL on teams made them weaker against spread DD, or at least that it should. More minions means more damage (as FB and CoC only reach max damage potential against 5 minions), focusing that damage via PL should kill off that PL minion rather quickly. Maybe the issue is ranged DD not doing enough damage in the first place?"

I don't think that's correct any more Nov. CoC/FB don't gain damage on minion count (and it was the other way round in CB1 wasn't it?).

But you hit the nail on the head with the Damage reduction. Sure your PL minion dies faster (unless it also has a TSA....) but all your minions (bar the PL one) gain a 10% Damage reduciton to the incoming spread.


three4thsforsaken November 20 2008 6:02 AM EST

from experience, you are far more likely to deal max damage with a spread DD with more minions than with less minions. In other words: less minions = less overall damage

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 20 2008 8:52 AM EST

I'm sure that's not the case.

what you might be seeing is spread damage not hitting as many minions as there were at the start of the round, but their dmaage remains spread.

so it looks like they're hitting for less than they should.
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