SoD and CTH (in General)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 2:33 PM EDT

Ok, I was fighting Vectoidz just a couple times for the heck of it, I noticed that I rarely hit first round. This kind of struck me as surprising seeing as I am using AA's SoD and my pth is 272. His DX is 3.8M and mine is 3.2M, so that would cause a slight difference, but not too much. His DBs are +161 named, so 168 against my pth. This would mean my pth alone is 111, also, I believe my DX cth would be around 50, so my total cth is 161. Seeing as I only hit around 30% of the time, this would put the first round ranged penalties at over 100. Someone good with numbers and the cth please check my work and see if this is right. I'm sure it's quite possible that I read something wrong.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 2:38 PM EDT

"this would put the first round ranged penalties at over 100."

i thought the ranged penalties were done more as a percent rather than a cth flat reduction?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 2:41 PM EDT

I doubt this is the case dudemus, as Vectoidz triple hits my Tank in the first round of ranged. I have evasion, only +62, but you get my point, if it was percentage enough to lower me that much, he would not be tripling.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 2:42 PM EDT

i thought the first round was like an 80% penalty. 161 * .2 is 32.2 or so, is that about right for what you are getting?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 2:43 PM EDT

are you figuring the difference with his 100 bth and your 60 bth?

remember your evasion can only take him down to base.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 2:44 PM EDT

Yes, but he triples first round, so does that mean he has a 1500 cth, I don't think so.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 2:48 PM EDT

Also, I triple against people without DX? Seems weird b/c with no evasion and full DX advantage I only get 432 cth. 432 x .2 = 86.4.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 2:52 PM EDT

many of us thought it was buggy back when evasion was changed, but we never really got a response. i had asked jon if someone with only a+106 elb should be hitting my minion with 210 evasion effect at all in the first two rounds, his response is in the following thread.

there were also discussions regarding people getting hits in melee when they were obviously on a threshold of barely getting other hits. it never really made sense to me how it was working and i gave up and just used a much lower evasion. sorry i cannot help more.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 2:57 PM EDT

Yeah, but something seems wrong with the ranged penalties, since I get triples too. Maybe it is suppose to be just 80cth, that would make it right for him, and me against other opponents, but it doesn't make since for this fight, unless with 81cth, I was just really unlucky.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 3:03 PM EDT

Ok, did some more battles, 5 out of 5 battles, I missed 1 out of 2 shots. Oddly enough though, 2 out of the 5 battles, I missed in the second round.... That should not be happening, I wonder if it's something wrong with the DX advantage, since it seems to be working fine against 20DX characters. A 3.2M to 3.8M DX difference shouldn't make a HUGE difference.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 3:05 PM EDT

the anomalies in rounds one & two along with melee rounds is why i thought something was buggy back then as well.

"Evasion bonus during ranged rounds increased from 10% per round to 20%."

i have never been able to figure out exactly how the evasion bonus worked either and suspected that it might not be functioning.

QBRanger April 2 2009 3:09 PM EDT

What is the SoD's Ranged Base to-Hit on the battle report?

That is your CTH with full dexterity advantage. Since you have less then his dex your at less than 1/2 that.

Then add your CTH from the weapon.

Now subtract his DBs from that number to find your final PTH given no ranged penalty.

NOW... Take a % of that number due to the ranged penalty. If 20% in the first missile round, you take 80% of your final number as you CTH that round.

If the Ranged Base to-Hit is 90 for a SoD, then your at less then 40 to start due to his dexterity advantage. Then add your 111 PTH from your weapon's advantage over his DB's.. So your about at most 151, most likely even lower. Then figure in the ranged penalty as a % not a fixed amount.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 3:14 PM EDT

How would 600k DX advantage decrease 90cth to 40cth?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 3:15 PM EDT

"That is your CTH with full dexterity advantage."

I don't think this is right, b/c with dex advantage and no pth you can have double hits with eblows.

QBRanger April 2 2009 3:23 PM EDT

His DX is 3.8M and mine is 3.2M, less then 1/2 the Base chance to hit and take a little off that.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 4:39 PM EDT

How is this true ranger, with equal DX, don't you always have 100% cth with an elbow, not 50%.

QBRanger April 2 2009 4:48 PM EDT

Not that I was led to believe in the past.

Before everything got changed, the max dex CTH was 159.9999. I have documentation to that exact number.

However, when things went to base chance to hit, I was led to believe that that number was the maximum CTH for dexterity with a full dex advantage.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 4:52 PM EDT

I know that's not the case, as I have seen +0 elbows get double hits.

QBRanger April 2 2009 4:54 PM EDT

Are they getting doubles every round with 100% full dex advantage?

I know there is a small fudge factor of about 5-10% to "random" things up a bit.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 4:56 PM EDT

No, but with a +10 they get doubles more often then not, which would lead me to think they're closer to 150cth, then 100.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 5:01 PM EDT

i am not sure that i understand what all you guys are saying, but from the evasion thread i posted, i got the impression that nothing, including dex advantage, reduces the cth below bth for the weapon.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 5:04 PM EDT

That is what Jon said one day, but it's obviously not true.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 5:07 PM EDT

other than ranged round penalties i guess i meant to add.

QBRanger April 2 2009 5:08 PM EDT

If that were true, my MoD would hit your JKF at least 60% of the time.

Which we both know is not happening.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 5:09 PM EDT

Now it's time for my favorite question, Why?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 2 2009 5:16 PM EDT

i am no help at all. i do feel it is buggy but have no idea how to prove it as things were changed so much that we don't really know how it should work to prove that it isn't working. sadly enough, even if we could that doesn't mean much.

Sacredpeanut April 2 2009 5:16 PM EDT

The BTH of a weapon is your chance to hit assuming the attacking and opposing minions have equal DX (ignoring PTH at this stage). This is 60 for the SoD.

With max DX advantage you can get an additional 100 CTH giving a max chance to hit of 160 with the SoD.

Given your opponent has more DX than you, your chance to hit (ignoring PTH) is going to be less than 60 - probably around 40.

dup April 2 2009 5:18 PM EDT

Since his ToA is 3mill more than you think that could cause an increase in the dex gap?

dup April 2 2009 5:22 PM EDT

thats unless its already added in the equip page =/

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 5:23 PM EDT

Thank you Sacred.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 5:32 PM EDT

Ok, that means my normal assumption was correct, my cth is 161. Doing some quick math, Vectiodz cth after my evasion and with his small DX advantage is around 357. Seeing that he triple hits me first round usually, while I miss usually, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that ranged penalties are not percentages, but straight points of cth like evasion. Around 100 or so it seems.

Sacredpeanut April 2 2009 5:44 PM EDT

In the September 18 2006 Changelog - "Slings and xbows also have slightly greater penalty to to-hit during 1st and 2nd rounds of ranged (but not 3rd round). "

So your total chance to hit is somewhere around 144 (40 + a net PTH of 104), and Vectoidz is 357. If the "to-hit" penalties for a sling in rounds 1 and 2 of ranged are around 60% and say 40% for bows, this could explain the results you are seeing.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 5:54 PM EDT

Think you Sacred, I was not around for that Changelog.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 5:58 PM EDT

Ok, now I got to thinking again, how did I triple hit against people with full DX advantage and no evasion. My 272 pth with 160 bth from DX and my weapon gives me a 432 cth. 432 x .4 = 172. That's just a chance for a double hit, now, however, if it was a straight penalty like I said, 120 for slings maybe 80 for bows, that would fit, but something is still off.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 2 2009 9:35 PM EDT

Bump because there is still more to learn.

MissingNo April 3 2009 12:39 AM EDT

This is pretty important. I wish I was better with numbers myself, so I could help calculate.

Sacredpeanut April 3 2009 5:33 PM EDT

I equipped a base sling on one of my 20 DX minions. I managed to get the occasional hit in round 1 against other 20 DX minions. If the ranged penalties were a straight "to-hit" reduction rather than a percentage then I should never hit in round 1 because I have a total "to-hit" of around 60 and first round ranged penalties for slings would need to be around 100 to get the results you are seeing.

Maybe the ranged penalties are a percentage reduction to PTH rather than total to-hit?
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