I will Request nicely from Jon.... (in General)


DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 3 2009 6:27 AM EDT

To please come out with some more AoJ... With the removal of Junction it has completely destroyed several peoples strats mine in particular... I don't like the idea that over the change I have picked up at least 4 people that weren't farming me before... And not to sound like a whiner, but it seems that the auctions for them are a bit broken at the moment... Last one to be auctioned off was spawned by the folks in the Black Market... the last one before that was 14 days prior and that was the last of the Central bank auctions... I beg you, please toss more into auctions to give everyone a chance to buy one that needs one...

QBJohnnywas April 3 2009 6:31 AM EDT

I like rares being rare, but this has been ridiculous. The removal of junction wasn't like removing Protection. While being without junction doesn't entirely kill a familiar team, it comes close.

So yup, more AoJs please.

ScY April 3 2009 6:45 AM EDT

!support

Talion April 3 2009 7:05 AM EDT

... and everyone had ample opportunity to buy one when a gazillion of them spawned in auctions. Heck, I even managed to grab one relatively cheap.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2009 7:10 AM EDT

relatively?

WOLFMOTHER April 3 2009 7:34 AM EDT

Yes, please. AoJ! AoJ!

GoLDeNGaTE April 3 2009 9:29 AM EDT

I don't really see the problem here, I mean, I got my AoJ so whats the big deal?

Neo Japan April 3 2009 9:30 AM EDT

lol

QBsutekh137 April 3 2009 10:05 AM EDT

It probably would seem opportunistic of Jonathan at this point, but even releasing the AoJ as a temporary supporter item would be nice. That would get more available, and people without the cash could use their CBD to buy one. At least it would be available, and there would end up being more in the long-term...

And yes, I say this while having one and pretty much being right where I was before the whole Junction change...

Admiralkiller April 3 2009 10:06 AM EDT

I did not get one and i tried (poor). I also have just devised of a plan with the use AoJ, so would too like more to appear.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 3 2009 10:09 AM EDT

for what its worth, i added the fact that the aoj seems to have been left out of the natural spawn table to the wiki the other day. i will add this post as a reference for the bug report as well.

BadFish April 3 2009 2:00 PM EDT

I'll just say this one thing, and then I'll step aside and won't say anything else.

I think you guys got what you deserved. How many times has this happened in CB? You use the most ridiculously overpowered strat, without realizing the effect you have on the REST of CB. Then when the strat gets nerfed you all scream for mercy. During the time period of the AoF+Familiar there wasn't a single familiar team I could beat. That affected me negatively, because so many people used that strat and I had trouble finding targets. My last NCB finished at 1.8m MPR in part because familiar teams at even half my MPR were unbeatable.

I'm going to be cheap and not look at this thread again, so whatever you have to say in response, I won't see ;)

Goodfish April 3 2009 2:07 PM EDT

My brother rocks.

Honestly, you guys have no clue how often he and I complained about exactly this.

I share his sentiment- anybody who relied on Junction deserves this.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 3 2009 2:11 PM EDT

Take it elsewhere guys, this is not a discussion thread, or a flame thread, this is just a request to Jon to allow more AoJ into the market.

Thak April 3 2009 2:12 PM EDT

What did everyone do before junction was implemented? You didnt have it at one point to begin with. This game is about strategy and adapting right? Well strategize and adapt. :)
Just my 2 cents.

You all have a good day.

Lord Bob April 3 2009 2:16 PM EDT

"I like rares being rare, but this has been ridiculous. The removal of junction wasn't like removing Protection."

I agree with this 100%.

I also agree that it would be within Jon's best interest to sell them as supporter items.

QBsutekh137 April 3 2009 2:37 PM EDT

But Thak, Junction hasn't been removed. That's the point. It's still SUPPOSED to be a game dynamic. Not removed. Still here. Still relevant. Should be used. Can be used. Shouldn't need to be adapted AWAY from.

Except the delivery mechanism for said, still-here tactical dynamic was changed so as to make it artificially rare. That sucks. And given the concessions Jonathan has already made in the whole ordeal (like making all AoJs +10) shows that he might very well feel the same way.

So where's the problem with asking for more AoJs? I don't see any harm in it at all.

QBRanger April 3 2009 3:00 PM EDT

I was just shocked that the AoJ is not a supporter item.

That way anyone who wants one could get it almost immediately.

And if you did not have usd, people would have bought them for you with a pay plan. I know I would have.

However, the best we can hope for is more spawns or a mass appearance into auction of another 50.

Thak April 3 2009 3:10 PM EDT

Agreed sutekh137, but we were able to do fine with out it before though. Dont get me wrong im not saying we shouldnt have it. I just saying we did fine with out it before.

I was quite upset myself when those first came out cause i finally got my hands on a fam and was about to prac junction then bam, the amulet that only the super rich can have now.
I agree with lord bob also about making it a supporter item again or at least a special item to purchase.
Gotta love supply and demand LOL

QBsutekh137 April 3 2009 3:24 PM EDT

Sure, Thak, we used to also be fine with:

-- Not being able to retrain intrinsics (HP/STR/DEX)
-- Not having fightlists
-- Not having clans
-- Not having tattoos
-- Not having NW figure into PR
-- Not having forging
-- Not having DM

I could go on and on. For that matter, the world used to run "fine" without computers and the internet. So let's all just go home and read a book. *smile*

Needless to say, the argument "we never used to have it" isn't a slam dunk for me. We never used to have cell phones, either, but now few people seem to be able to drive or even buy a watermelon without yakking into a headset. If I have to put up with that nonsense, you'll have to put up with Junction. :P

chaosal April 3 2009 3:27 PM EDT

ooo no DM... i like that idea :P

Thak April 3 2009 3:28 PM EDT

hehe that cell phone example you gave is they way i see it. Not needed but makes things easier. Now people have become to dependent on it.

Goodfish April 3 2009 3:32 PM EDT

By the same token, sutekh, you can't say that just because we DO have it, that it's "fine". I personally think Junction is a terrible skill, simply because it allows for really cheesy strats. I mean, can you build a strat around Evasion? Eh... I'd say no. Bloodlust? Of course not. PL? Kind of, but it's a support skill.

AoJ's are no different. Is there really any other item that makes or breaks a build? I'm discounting weapons here because obviously any tank needs them. A familiar team does NOT need an AoJ. The AoJ only becomes important when someone is running a cheesy, unimaginative strategy. I can't see many builds needing an AoJ besides the ubiquitous "single minion familiar" team. Any other team can work around the change.

There were similar complaints about the Evasion change. Eliminating defense dex really hurt it, and it's now virtually unused. I would not be surprised (I'd be happy, in fact) if a similar situation with Junction ensued. Jon turns the skill into a non-spawning amulet, and hopefully it will become just like Evasion- virtually unused.

In spite of myself, I have to end with the following:

I hate Junction.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 3 2009 3:43 PM EDT

perhaps we should take a community vote and remove all strats that people think are cheesy, unimaginative or stupid. then we could all do trivia in chat because there sure as heck wouldn't be any fighting going on! ; )

Demigod April 3 2009 3:51 PM EDT

"then we could all do trivia in chat because there sure as heck wouldn't be any fighting going on!"

We actually could use more trivia in chat. :)

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 3 2009 3:58 PM EDT

Considering the price, lack of availability, combined with the demand and lack of them spawning I agree 100% with the OP.

If Jon cared about CB anymore he would fix this, as well as fix the problems he caused with the BoE, along with the known bugs. Tho... I don't see Jon anywhere... where is he? If he doesn't care maybe he should pass the torch along to someone who wont fall asleep and catch the barn on fire :(.

Lord Bob April 3 2009 4:26 PM EDT

"I mean, can you build a strat around Evasion? Eh... I'd say no."

Not anymore, thankfully.

Hakai [Aye Phelta Thi] April 3 2009 4:36 PM EDT

That's a very poor attitude to have, Jiraiya. And while I'll agree that this is not the place for this, I cannot remain silent.

Jon has a wife, and 3 kids. A life outside of CB. This game cannot be his 24/7 focus. Be grateful that he's as involved as he is. I see Jon in chat on a very regular basis. The server hardly ever goes down. The game is not THAT bugged.
And besides. Every time he logs on, he's blasted with "fix this, it's broken or not up to my standards." His "To-Do" list is longer than I could even imagine. See how often you'd post if that were the case.

Give the man a break.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 3 2009 4:49 PM EDT

while what you are saying is true, i think many of us are feeling frustrated for multiple reasons:

long-standing bugs
new bugs introduced with new items
new items introduced but not spawning
a lack of feedback/communication on any of the above
doubling of devs leading to a seeming reduction in dev input
etc.

for many the game may not be that buggy, if you are affected by the bugs it is a different story. i am affected by at least 3 bugs and some of them have been around since before my ncb run and have affected me the whole of said run.

a little communication regarding intent or timeframe goes a long way all of the time but can be especially helpful in the lean times.

QBsutekh137 April 3 2009 5:01 PM EDT

My strategy is cheesy? Simply beefing up my familiar with gear? Not sure what your definition of "cheesy" is.

How about this strategy: No hp on any minions except a massive PL sink that acts as a force shield for just about any amount of damage.

PL is far cheesier than anything I have seen to date.

And yes, I would agree that Junction is cheesier now that it is based on an amulet, but it is clear you thought Junction was a problem before this. That is the first I have ever heard anyone call Junction overpowered, so it surprises me to hear.

I find that the perceived cheesiness of an opponent's strategy is inversely proportional to the ability to beat said opponent. *smile* I am sure people see my massive DM as cheesy -- assuming they use DEs. The folks who don't see me as, well, dinner. In that regard, I'm sorry you have such a problem against Junction. Perhaps you are the one in need of a tactical change.

QBRanger April 3 2009 5:03 PM EDT

Sut,

Your Limburger Cheesy!!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2009 5:05 PM EDT

/me feels a single tear roll down his cheek hides his face from goodfish and runs away

Sacredpeanut April 3 2009 5:22 PM EDT

I think Junction is far too powerful to be something granted by an item.

At the very least its PR weight should be increased significantly to reflect its usefulness for familiar based teams.

ScY April 3 2009 5:32 PM EDT

I think that the SoC and SoD also have been taken out of the table as well as a bunch of other armors. Or at least spawn like once a month...

Flamey April 3 2009 5:53 PM EDT

Interestingly enough, the people advocating for more already own an AoJ. I really don't think it's become a necessity. It's become the top priority for a lot of strats, but familiars were viable strats before. Not being able to beef them up isn't exactly destroying it is it?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 3 2009 6:40 PM EDT

"Not being able to beef them up isn't exactly destroying it is it?"

the inequity brought about by some having it and others not having it is more at issue here i would think. in effect, with all things being equal and one team having one and the other not would definitely effect the outcome of a fight.

kevlar April 3 2009 6:46 PM EDT

It should be a supporter item, suggested that many times prior/during its release.

"Sacredpeanut 5:22 PM EDT I think Junction is far too powerful to be something granted by an item.

At the very least its PR weight should be increased significantly to reflect its usefulness for familiar based teams."

But the AoJ replaced the AoF, which was a huge nerf for Familiar based teams. Unless I'm mistaken. Being able to train Junction AND have the AoF do its original thing I thought was superior to what is now.

QBRanger April 3 2009 6:55 PM EDT

It was a nerf for DD familiars.

If it is fixed, it can be a huge buff for Jiggys.

For Hals, it is a mixed bag, depending on what you do with your junction minion.

Goodfish April 3 2009 7:27 PM EDT

"perhaps we should take a community vote and remove all strats that people think are cheesy, unimaginative or stupid. then we could all do trivia in chat because there sure as heck wouldn't be any fighting going on! ; )"

dudemus, you have a point. ;) I realize I came off kind of snotty, but please don't take it that way. I was just giving my opinion, and I guess at the time I didn't feel like being very nice about it... although I wouldn't mind more trivia in chat.

"I mean, can you build a strat around Evasion? Eh... I'd say no." Not anymore, thankfully.

My point exactly, LB. With the price of AoJ's as they are, the "average" CBer can't build a strategy around Junction- unless they want to sink 5M-ish on an amulet that just pumps up a familiar. A mindless minion you have no control over anyways. Shrug.

"My strategy is cheesy? Simply beefing up my familiar with gear? Not sure what your definition of "cheesy" is."

Sut, I wasn't singling out your strategy. But if you want my definition of "cheesy", it's a strategy that requires one item and one minion, with the minion training nothing but an ED spell. Even more generally, a cheesy strategy is one that requires very, very minimal CBD investment and is good for a huge amount of the game. I mean, SFBM is kind of lame but sucks once you get up there. I see SMF (single minion familiar) teams up at 2.5M, 3M MPR. That's just disgusting. Pair that with the fact that you can get yourself up to 2M without spending any CBD besides the investment on the familiar and you have just hit the nail on the head of my "cheesy" definition. I'm not saying it's a stupid strategy, I'm saying that it's cheesy.

How about this strategy: No hp on any minions except a massive PL sink that acts as a force shield for just about any amount of damage.

I haven't seen anyone use this strategy, but if it was actually done, this person would have to avoid any and all teams that use GA. Or AMF. Yeah, good luck finding people to actually fight. ;)

"And yes, I would agree that Junction is cheesier now that it is based on an amulet, but it is clear you thought Junction was a problem before this. That is the first I have ever heard anyone call Junction overpowered, so it surprises me to hear."

I'm not calling it overpowered. I'm saying that it's lame. It adds a little twist on familiars, but as someone who already thinks familiars are stupid anyways... well, you can figure where I'm going with this. :)

"In that regard, I'm sorry you have such a problem against Junction. Perhaps you are the one in need of a tactical change."

I didn't mean to come off as a whiner. I just don't see what good things Junction does for the game, and I especially don't see why people are complaining over something that was... well, frankly, pretty ridiculous. You can already pump your familiars effectively- Junction basically let you run two different strategies at the same time. With the elimination of it, you either have to sink 5M for the amulet, or pick one of these two options: a) change your strategy to center around your familiar, or b) ditch the familiar. Frankly, I don't know why more people aren't doing b) especially at lower (read: any MPR below 6/20), because all I see familiars and tattoos being good for is artificially inflating your PR. I mean, I have a ToA I can equip at virtually my MTL (400k, not very high, I know). The thing is, it only lets me add a few people to my fight list, but reduces my Challenge Bonus by nearly 40% across the board. Plus, it means I can't use my TSA (or an EC when I can afford one).

It has become such "common knowledge" that you have to use a tattoo at all times if you want to be good that it's actually become quite the opposite. All my opponents are artificially adding to their PR and I am still able to kill them. I just wish people realized that familiars aren't entirely necessary... because that'd quell a lot of this whining about how we need more AoJ's.

Anyways, I'd like to broadly apologize for my last post, I guess I was being a bit whiny. Didn't mean to come off as such, hopefully this post is a bit more even-tempered. :)

QBRanger April 3 2009 7:33 PM EDT

"How about this strategy: No hp on any minions except a massive PL sink that acts as a force shield for just about any amount of damage.

I haven't seen anyone use this strategy, but if it was actually done, this person would have to avoid any and all teams that use GA. Or AMF. Yeah, good luck finding people to actually fight. ;)"

Have you happened to see one of the top characters in the game.

Mikel's King of Pain?

He is the exact character Sut is typing about.

AdminJonathan April 3 2009 7:38 PM EDT

Added 20 AoJ to auctions.

I think someone said that they don't spawn? They do.

QBRanger April 3 2009 7:39 PM EDT

Thanks!

blackshadowshade April 3 2009 7:40 PM EDT

There you go! The Creator has created!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 3 2009 7:55 PM EDT

i had added it to the known issues as a "none have spawned naturally since it was released." i do check it daily to see if anything has proven me wrong.

Demigod April 3 2009 7:57 PM EDT

Jon, thanks for posting. It will definitely help the mob mentality. :)

BarCap April 3 2009 8:00 PM EDT

all of them are base

Goodfish April 3 2009 8:06 PM EDT

"Have you happened to see one of the top characters in the game. Mikel's King of Pain? He is the exact character Sut is typing about."

I have in fact seen King of Pain. However, I think he is build around PL just as much as his RoBF.

But point taken. One user has made PL his strategy. Now... how many users are built around Junction, again, Ranger? :P

BadFish April 3 2009 8:11 PM EDT

MoD>PL


sorry, couldn't stay away

QBRanger April 3 2009 8:15 PM EDT

I was just replying to your statement that nobody uses Mikel's strategy.

Plenty of people use junction, as do plenty use the RBF, the TOA and the ROS.

Just to deny people from using it, due to a scarcity of items, is ill-advised for a game such as CB.

There are nerf's which come about. Such as the AoF boosting DD familiars and giving them more AS HP. Such as the MgS getting its MR reduced. Such as the TOE completely changing.

However, removing junction and making an amulet without having enough for the community is a bad overall thing for the good health and future of the game.

One can of course play without a familiar. One does not have to use junction. I personally believed that the AoJ should have been a supporter item. That would have solved numerous problems and made Jon a nice amount of money to progress CB. But in the absence of that, the fairest thing to do would be to give those who want it, an opportunity to get it.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 3 2009 8:20 PM EDT

Thank you Jon, I do appreciate what you do for this game ^_^

WOLFMOTHER April 3 2009 8:40 PM EDT

Will they work at 0?

Guardian April 3 2009 9:12 PM EDT

All amulets have been changed (13th of March 2009) [2] to +10 versions which grant 100% junction effect


SO WHY ARE AOJ AT + 0 RIGHT NOW?
please adm fix it

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2009 9:21 PM EDT

From grateful to griping in 20 minutes... CB needs YOU! (to stop being such a whiner)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2009 9:22 PM EDT

You know, I'm starting to like the idea of the AoJ being rare more and more.

QBOddBird April 3 2009 9:24 PM EDT

How dare you disagree with public opinion! I strike you down now, novice.

Goodfish April 3 2009 9:41 PM EDT

novice's last comment was enough to raise suspicion that we're multis. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2009 9:43 PM EDT

You're not bald enough to be my multi.

Lord Bob April 4 2009 12:12 AM EDT

"all of them are base"

April fools joke, perhaps?

Goodfish April 4 2009 12:54 AM EDT

Hey, people just said they wanted more. They never said they wanted them to actually work. ;)

QBJohnnywas April 4 2009 3:18 AM EDT

Ah this just gets funnier.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 4 2009 11:27 AM EDT

I would be laughing besides the fact I've been sitting on 1600 ba for two weeks waiting to get an AoJ :(

Not that I couldn't run another strategy at this point, but It's kind of a bum deal to spend millions and millions of CBD preparing for a strategy only to not be able to run it. :(

QBJohnnywas April 4 2009 11:35 AM EDT

I couldn't run my old strat because of the change. My only option at the time was shifting to what I owned which was a bow.

So trust me I feel your pain.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 5 2009 7:23 AM EDT

I bet you they are April Fools' jokes. Jon would have most likely changed them by now, if they were not. ;)

BluBBen April 5 2009 8:53 AM EDT

I'm gonna buy one and upgrade it to +100 and get all stats multiplied by 10 before transferred to my familiar! =D

BarCap April 5 2009 9:33 AM EDT

AoJs can't be upgraded

Flamey April 5 2009 10:13 AM EDT

20 got put in auctions?

QBRanger April 5 2009 10:18 AM EDT

Yes,

Read Jon's post a few posts above.

Flamey April 5 2009 10:19 AM EDT

See I was looking for that post, but then people were still discussing lack of AoJ in a strat :/

BarCap April 5 2009 8:45 PM EDT

anyone test if the base AoJ give 100% junction?

WOLFMOTHER April 8 2009 1:11 AM EDT

Yeah they work.

Rawr April 8 2009 1:23 AM EDT

so why use the +10 ones if they give 1.5mil nw? pooping on encumbrance?

Cube April 8 2009 1:37 AM EDT

They're called bugged ones; there were a few AoI like that too no idea if they were fixed.
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