In your opinion... (the ultimate strategy) (in General)

Untouchable April 4 2009 10:08 PM EDT

what would be the ultimate strat?

list your strat down (including specific items)

*cough*so i can steal it from you and use the strat for myself >:D*cough*

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] April 4 2009 10:27 PM EDT

-4 minions
-One with each of those: Haste, Giant Strength, Ablative Shield, Amf
-Each one with at least a Corn
-4 SoD's
-A ToE

Lol. Fun strat, but expensive. If I had unlimited funds, I'd do that. Don't know about ''ultimate'' though :P

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] April 4 2009 10:28 PM EDT

DM instead of AMF though.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] April 4 2009 10:40 PM EDT

Errr, yes. Or course :S Did not think about it enough :)

Admiralkiller [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 5 2009 12:13 AM EDT

I'm no pro but I am making a 4 minion party all with
MM With a steel familiar / junction
With all the typical + DD spell boosts Items
1/2 Hp, 1/2 MM on two smaller minions
1/3, 1/2, max on two bigger minions with and enchantment each (not sure which yet)

I know it seems weak but it may be able to kill quick b4 ranged is over at higher lvl's

I'd love to hear input.

Admiralkiller [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 5 2009 12:14 AM EDT

1 more thing it would be a little cheaper then most strats because no $ on ranged or melee weapsons.

Ryuzaki April 5 2009 1:06 AM EDT

single minion base decay, ablative, and some amf with an ice familiar, research all possible targets as it grows, and get the cooperation of every single active cb member to store up maximum ba and to unequip all items on all of their characters. Then transfer the character between everyone on the first day during xp time for 300k+ fights. After that, almost any strategy you choose will be ultimate, teamwork ftw!

Messbrutal April 5 2009 3:38 AM EDT

Ryuzaki, doesn't all of that goes against the ethic rules around here?

Or maybe I am just ignorant.

Sickone April 5 2009 3:51 AM EDT

4 minions each with :
Cornuthaum, Amulet of Focus, Spellboosters, Breastplate of Expertise (except one that has a Rune of Solitude) and Beleg's Gloves

all have Armor Proficiency trained
cloaks and shields are optional

the one that has the RoS has Giant Strength trained 100%
one has Ablative Shield trained 100%
one has half Haste, half Dispel Magic
one has half Guardian Angel, half Dispel Magic

weapons :

1x Assassin's Crossbow
1x Executioner's Crossbow
2x Sling of Death

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] April 5 2009 9:00 AM EDT

That is an awesome strat. It's the most expensive one I've ever heard of though. :o

ScY April 5 2009 12:16 PM EDT

Yeah, RoS >ToA so that sut doesnt dispel your strat

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 3:20 PM EDT

You guys aren't serious are you?

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] April 5 2009 3:28 PM EDT

I am. Sickone's strat sounds pretty freaking sweet.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] April 5 2009 3:32 PM EDT

It does sound pretty nice. Insanely costy, but nice.

ScY April 5 2009 3:38 PM EDT

If you have about 500M NW (Freed +some money) it can be really powerful with a high lvl tattoo blocking up DM.

ScY April 5 2009 3:39 PM EDT

The strat is essentially exponential as well, the more mpr you get, your strat gets exponentially more powerful relative to other strats because eventually you will have like 5M str 4M dx on 4 minions with big SoDs/MGS even UC vs one larger damage dealer (but if the weapons have similar NW, then 4 minions will destroy it really quickly)

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 3:52 PM EDT

Having multiple tanks isn't as good as you would think. Sure you could have 5 million str on a few minions or you could have 20 million str on a real tank. GS is "efficient", but people don't realize how incredibly efficient STR boosting items are.

Even with infinite money, that wouldn't be the "ultimate" strat. Too many holes (evasion, EC, DM, ROS/GA).

What I think would be ultimate? A tank with an infinitely large armor set, with a infinitely huge weapon with near top MPR. Something this game will never see.

Sickone April 5 2009 4:07 PM EDT

Well, let's have some numbers then if CB$ would not be an issue :)

Let's say we have a 4 mil MPR character, that comes out as roughly 5.34 mil raw levels on each minion and slightly over 10 mil MTL (there is one such tattoo in-game already, slightly over, actually).
Let's say everybody has +9 named Corn (+20% enchants) and +12 named AoF (+39% echant effect), +2% ED from spellboosters, +5% ED from BoE, for a grand total of +66% effects if not dispelled.
You get protection from the first 4 mil DM for the 10 mil RoS. Any enemy with less than that doesn't even matter.

A 10 mil RoS would add 5 mil levels of GS (not boosted by Corn sadly, only the base 5.34 mil), so it's 5.34*1.66+5*1.46=16.16 mil GS, casting for (*0.68) nearly 11 mil ST on all minions.
Similarly, you get 5.34*1.66*0.3375 = nearly 3 mil HP from the AS if it's not dispelled.
You also get around 5.34*1.66*0.68/2= a bit over 3 mil DX on every minion.
On top of it all, you also get 5.34*(2/2)*0.8*1.27(apox) = 5.4 mil DM effect casted.

Your encumbrance limits are really insanely high, probably around 400 mil NW or thereabouts for each minion (if enemy has no EC nor insanely high DM), so you can really afford to pile on a lot of NW in each of the weapons... and at 11 mil ST, you're going to pack a shedload of damage on each shot.

There's, you know, just this teeny weeny problem of getting all the needed CB$ :P

Sickone April 5 2009 4:13 PM EDT

Mary Frances Boyd cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (3,857,359)
Dave cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (8,274,446)
Joe cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (10,799,498)
Hubbell Man cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (13,737,266)

Ok, so he's a 4.4 mil MPR character, he has the most DM in the entire game, and even he will barely manage to nullify a 4 mil MPR's character enchants. There's even nearly 1 mil ST left on each of your minions !

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] April 5 2009 4:14 PM EDT

I was starting a character like that back in CB1, near the end. Once I got to CB2, my first or second character followed a similar format, but completely died once DM was introduced. I'm not really sure when the RoS came into existence, but it was after I'd given up on that character. I could see it being feasible, though, with the set-up Sickone gave. The issue is getting 4 named +9 corns and 4 named +12 AoFs. I know I don't have enough money for that.

I would like to try it, if I could.

Sickone April 5 2009 4:22 PM EDT

You can probably drop the 4th character (the one with GA/DM), so you'd only need three corn/aof, and you would get more XP concentration into GS/AS, and your Haste:DM ratio would be decided by what you train on a single character... or you could also use some DM on any of the other two, to fine-tune everything just the way you like it.
Eh, not that nice without the GA in my opinion (so that mages torch themselves faster, combined with the SoD), but saves you a bunch of money and makes you even less susceptible to enemy DM.

QBJohnnywas April 5 2009 4:23 PM EDT

The 'fake tank' strat...I've not seen it up higher because of the cost, but certainly lower down, single tank with a decent amount of dex usually out performs.

BadFish April 5 2009 4:27 PM EDT

Single minion, 1/2 HP and 1/2 Finger of Death.

Sickone April 5 2009 4:29 PM EDT

Well, the setup above could probably hit at least once per round, if not twice with every weapon, and if you have ~100 mil NW weapons on (barely a quarter of the NW allowance) doing somewhere between 2 and 3 mil damage per hit, with the possibility of taking out even all targets in a single round (DM + splash damage = dead enemy team), or severely crippling enemy tanks (high NW speciality crossbow plus 11 mil ST equals negative ST/DX enemy tank in the first volley, even if he has a much higher DX, since you WILL almost certainly hit at least once).

iBananco [Blue Army] April 5 2009 4:56 PM EDT

Assuming equal NW, a team with 4 tanks and 4 equivalent weapons will do just as much damage as one with equivalent NW and XP, distributed in exactly the same fashion, assuming no investment in +. Any + will give the single minion an advantage.

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 5:13 PM EDT

Also worth noting that if one minion dies, the damage potential takes a big hit and that that NW is lost for the rest of the fight.

To continue, a large evasion could greatly hamper this team. If a huge single RoBF team trains 5 million dex and 5 million evasion and equips a large Exbow there is now way you could hit them during ranged as the exbow drains all your team to oblivion. It's an obscure situation, but shows how your strat is far from ultimate.

Even if you somehow reinvest your entire ENC into PTH, another huge EC/DM team could turn around and have your own NW crush your own efficiency.

As far a perfect Hypothetical strats go, we can do better :).

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] April 5 2009 6:27 PM EDT

Well, how many single huge RoBF teams with 5m evasion and 5m DX do you know? :P

Besides, if the SoD minion were in the back it would be the last one to get hit with an exbow, leaving plenty of time to destroy.

Cube April 5 2009 6:36 PM EDT

Well you get less AC on everyone, EC works 4x effectiveness, as does evasion/dex, and damage output isn't that much higher.

Cube April 5 2009 6:42 PM EDT

Harder to break GA threshold, and as each person dies you get less attack from each person.

Sickone April 5 2009 9:52 PM EDT

"Assuming equal NW, a team with 4 tanks and 4 equivalent weapons will do just as much damage as one with equivalent NW and XP, distributed in exactly the same fashion, assuming no investment in +."

The big difference however is in hit distribution.
The single big guy will need 4 rounds to kill the opposition.
The opposition could make it all go away in a single round.

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 10:39 PM EDT

But they won't.

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] April 5 2009 10:51 PM EDT

Considering how few people use evasion, this strat could hypothetically be awesome..

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 11:07 PM EDT

Nem tried the 5 tank strat way back when.

We've argued with eachother constantly about the efficiency of such a strat constantly. Since then, I am very aware of the weakness of the GS/Haste/AS mentality.

First of all, sticking a RoS on the GS minion might seem like a good idea looking at the numbers but in reality one of the biggest issues with this strat is the survivability.

25% exp into AS simply doesn't cut it when a team has no real minion specializing in defense. This team would get torn apart in ranged. If you're relying on the exbow to survive against archers, then that is not a stable bet gameplay wise. (Quite frankly, if your exbow is hitting and you are still losing against tanks, you seriously should rethink your life.) Besides, if you intend to win with an exbow, you should really make an anti-mage team to maximize your chances to beat EVERYONE (hence the term "ultimate" strat). Even a huge SFBM team would have potential to wipe out/draw this team.

Another huge issue is EC. EC not only attacks your str and dex, but your ENC. If you are filling up your ENC. You're going to find yourself hit with insult and injury with a huge EC (that is boosted by AoF I presume).

Finally, a sure sign of the lack of "ultimateness" of this strat is the complete inefficiency especially in NW. Investing that much into weapons could easily reinvested make a 425+ armor set, or fill up a variety of different equipments to make an even more ultimate team. How about a 400 mil NW DBs? Train 1 mil Evasion to take out the rest of the CTH. Junction to Hal, you have the dex advantage.

So no, this strat does not have the chance to be awesome. It has the ability with an unreal investment to go from bad to mediocre. The best strats in the game should have a way to go from good to really good with an unrealistic investment.

Demigod April 5 2009 11:10 PM EDT

Once you reach high levels with 4 tanks, wouldn't the cost to maintain the necessary upgrades become insanely expensive?

Fatil1ty April 5 2009 11:14 PM EDT

I think lostling's opinion is key in this thread as his character the triad is similar to this but with some differences

Tyriel [123456789] April 5 2009 11:23 PM EDT

My idea of an ultimate strategy needs:

1) A wall, for dealing with tanks. Either evasion or AC, though AC would probably be a little more 'ultimate'.
2) A RoBF, so it is immune to AMF/GA/EC
3) As little DEs as possible to be immune to DM
4) PL + TSA, to keep damage away from important minions.
5) A way to deal with pesky DDs (AMF).

I feel that it is impossible to have an 'ultimate' strategy that is offensive; there will always be ways for defensive strategies to win out.

Therefore, I submit as my idea of an 'ultimate' strategy:

Minion 1: RoBF, MgS, AoI. Training all HP + base EC.
Minion 2: AoI, enchanter gear, NSC. Training all AMF + base Decay.
Minion 3: TSA, MgS, AoI, pile on leftover NW as AC/Elven gear. Training necessary PL, rest HP.
Minion 4: Full wall gear, with most of the NW available to the team on it. Training the HP for the necessary ENC. Rest can be Evasion and/or more AMF (in which case, train AP) and/or HP.

Ideally, minions 2 and 3 would have the most XP, with 4 having the minimum to wear its wall gear, and minion 1 having virtually 0 XP.

Minion 1 deals with SG, with a 50%+ reduction and 0 bonus to its damage. Minion 2 deals with pesky DD spells. Minion 3 keeps damage away from important minions. Minion 4 deals with pretty much all physical attacks and MM.

Now, of course, it's realistically impossible to have an 'ultimate' strategy, immune to everything, unless you have a massive NW and/or MPR advantage. As an example, my above team may struggle to kill other defensive teams, being that it has no damage except for a RoBF and Decay. It may also struggle with CoC, FB, and SoD splash damage, depending on the size of it and the size of the PL wall.

Still, I like my strategy, and I'm going to try and use it with my NCB. :)

Cube April 5 2009 11:30 PM EDT

Tyriel has the right idea

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 11:40 PM EDT

I like tyriel's idea.

In the same train of thought, give me 300 million CBD.

I'll hire 3 times, get over 5 million MPR.

Retrain the front minion with half dex/evasion and the other half HP. (about 24 million levels total levels to work with on that minion). Give him an AoI and MgS and huge exbow with dex equips.

The other 3 minions would spam AMF giving about 10 million in AMF.

No tank or mage could crack that bubble. However, a pure defense team might stale.

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 11:46 PM EDT

oh yeah, RoBF on the front minion. That's important.

[MG]Mecca-Devilbot [Clan of One] April 5 2009 11:54 PM EDT

On a side note..

If you were interested in going for a heavy AC set:
Base AC: 106 (7 items)
10mil in each item slot = +285 (401 total) [409 named]
20mil in each item slot = ~+312 (418 total) [426 named]
30mil in each item slot = ~+323 (429 total) [437 named]
50mil in each item slot = ~+333 (439 total) [448 named]

Even at 50 mil per item, your still 40 short. Naming would get you a 2% bonus, iirc, bringing you to ~448AC.
Which is still 29 short.

Gains past 10mil per item are extremely small, and likely not worth it. Total net worth from armor alone would be 350mil. Reaching 477 AC would probably cost you another 100-200 million.

If you could afford it.. You would be immune to melee attacks. And would only be taking ~25% of magical damage.

[MG]Mecca-Devilbot [Clan of One] April 5 2009 11:55 PM EDT

Apparently my memory is incorrect, and it's +4% for armor.
Bringing the total for the 50mil set to 456, which is 21 short.

Cube April 6 2009 12:36 AM EDT

You missed the 25% nerf to AC - without Steel Skin that is.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 6 2009 3:35 AM EDT

3 walls all with 477 AC
Mix it up with 1 PL guy and armor proficiency
1 guy with 50% hp and 50% SS RoBF

unbeatable :)

QBJohnnywas April 6 2009 3:42 AM EDT

With regards to the fake tank - AS/GS/Haste strat - Lostling, as pointed out above has a strat along those lines, with the RoS boosting GA. Having just fought it and lost it was the GA that did the business, the rest of the team is there for mopping up, which really doesn't require much investment in weapons.

Untouchable April 6 2009 8:02 PM EDT

Henk Bres' strat is awsome haha

[MG]Mecca-Devilbot [Clan of One] April 6 2009 10:36 PM EDT

I was assuming the use of Steel Skin to gain the maximum efficiency from your armor.

Cube April 6 2009 11:04 PM EDT

Steel Skin seemed to have some bugs with naming actually, and trust me 456 is not 50 mil NW. You actually need a significant amount of HP for the ENC for that too, not to mention you can still be DMed, or even just killed by DD.

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] April 6 2009 11:27 PM EDT

He said 50m NW in each slot. So 300m NW.

Cube April 6 2009 11:47 PM EDT

Once he has 10 million HP it's believable.
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