how effective is ToE... (in General)

Untouchable May 8 2009 10:13 AM EDT

and how can it be used properly?

{cb2}Dinh May 8 2009 10:16 AM EDT

Don't think anyone even hardly uses the ToE anymore...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 8 2009 10:32 AM EDT

if you use it in combination with a wall/SoC, it is a big melee/archer stopper.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 8 2009 10:45 AM EDT

The ToE works quite well against tanks, but since it does nothing against mages it makes it kind of hard to use very well.

Personally if I were going to use the ToE I would do it on a 2 minion team with the front minion being an enchanter with AoI, BoF, BoE, Corn, and NSC, training a base decay, SS enough to get a full effect on the tank and the rest into AMF. It would be either SS or VA. VA might actually be better in this case.

The second minion would be a heavy tank with almost no dex, just like 10k to make sure you have full dex advantage vs mages, then the rest into HP and str and probably BL to increase damage. I would run with either a Morg or BoNE for the weapon. Then use a MgS, TSA, HoE, DB for against other tanks or maybe CML or EB, TG and SC.

This team would have a very large AMF plus a good amount of AC on the tank along with MgS to reduce mage damage by a large amount then the ToE reduces tank damage by as much as 60% combined with the heavy AC reduces tank damage down by a huge amount as well. With either very heavy hitting and the regeneration abilities he would eventually plow through them.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 8 2009 10:51 AM EDT

Freed uses it to great effect.

BadFish May 8 2009 10:55 AM EDT

The ToE is good. The problem with it is it stops, literally completely halts, in its improvement after about level 1.5 million. The difference between a level 1.5 million and level 10 million ToE is negligible and probably wouldn't make a difference in any fight.

Cube May 8 2009 10:58 AM EDT

It cannot be used properly in any way, unfortunately.

QBRanger May 8 2009 11:00 AM EDT

Freed uses it well.

He does have a lot of NW to work vs magic however.

For almost anyone else, it is a less than optimal choice for a tattoo.

I do suspect Freed would do better with a HF or even a RBF. Or even a RoS.

[P]Mitt May 8 2009 11:25 AM EDT

The ToE is good. The problem with it is it stops, literally completely halts, in its improvement after about level 1.5 million. The difference between a level 1.5 million and level 10 million ToE is negligible and probably wouldn't make a difference in any fight.

The difference between the ToE and basically any other tattoo is that it is more reactant than independent. I know that it trains endurance at ~45% around level 3M and ~51% around level 7M. Which, to most bean counters, constitutes "negligible". However what they don't realize is that the ToE is different from any other tattoo:

Any damage dealing familiar increases its damage as its level goes up - this is obvious. The ToA increases its user's strength linearly as its level increases. Same with RoS and RoBF. The ToE doesn't do this.

But what it does do is compensate for the important (and overlooked) fact that when your score/MPR/PR rises, the opponents that you will be facing will be dealing more damage to you. Endurance can not be diminished. From the wiki: Endurance is a simple percentage reduction to all physical damage that is applied to all members of your team. So 50% endurance at 1M MPR will prevent far, far less damage than 50% endurance at 4M MPR because the damage dealers you will face at 4M MPR will be doing far more damage.

While it is true that the difference between a 3M ToE and a 10M ToE isn't much, the effect of a ToE is different at different ranges of MPR.

In Fact, at High MPR, it would be more economical to have a 3M ToE rather than shelling out the big bucks for a 7 or 8M Damage dealing familiar that just would not make a dent at a level of 3 million.

So what I meant when I said the ToE is reactant instead of independent is that the effect of the ToE depends on the amount of damage you will be taking. This is a fundamental difference between the ToE and any other tattoo - It is more like GA instead of a DD spell - its effect depends on how much damage you take rather than doing a set amount of damage, and this, in effect, is why I believe that the ToE is by far the most underrated tattoo out there. You could do almost just as well at high levels with a 3M ToE over a 10M ToE - by lowering your PR (boosting your rewards) as well as keeping you from shelling out an enormous amount of money for a large tattoo. And you could always trade down - another source of income.

Just my 2 cents.

QBRanger May 8 2009 11:33 AM EDT

However, given the lack of any magical protection, your quite vulnerable to being attacked/farmed by mages.

[P]Mitt May 8 2009 11:40 AM EDT

Oh absolutely. But against tanks of all sizes, it is very efficient.

I just don't think that people that say it is useless it because "the difference between 3M and 10M levels is negligible" fully understand what it is trying to do.

BadFish May 8 2009 12:47 PM EDT

I think you're confusing "useless" with "good". Notice how I started off my post with, "The ToE is good." That means I DON'T think it's useless. I DO think that the fact that it stops improving (independently) is lame. That doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, that it sucks, nothing like that. I just think its lame, is all.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 8 2009 2:36 PM EDT

"It cannot be used properly in any way, unfortunately."

- One of the silliest statements I have ever heard. You can use the ToE quiet effectively on an anti-tank strat.

QBRanger May 8 2009 2:42 PM EDT

It certainly can be used on a specific type of strategy.

However, compared to all the other tattoos, it is the most specific in its use.

IE: All the familiars can be used vs mages, tanks, RBF users..etc.

The RoS can be effective vs all characters as well. Aside from its DM resistance, it gives a bonus to one ED spell and lets you use DM with AMF/EC.

The RBF is most powerful vs mages, but can be used vs tanks as well doing non-GA special type damage.

The ToA is for tanks, however it lets you attack tanks and mages.

The ToE is specific for defense only vs tanks.

I believe that is the main problem. It only really helps in defense and only vs 1 type of character. It does nada vs the RBF or magic.

I would like to see the ToE get its damage reduction to help vs both physical and the RBF. I would also like to see it help reduce GA damage. I think then it would be a very nice alternative to other tattoos. Especially the reduction in GA.

Drama [Just for fun] May 8 2009 3:43 PM EDT

And there's the vorpal blade for tanks to break the "super powerful" endurance.

Wizard'sFirstRule May 9 2009 8:11 AM EDT

maybe ToE can keep its endurance and get fixed prevention at 1/20 of its level against other damage.

QBRanger May 9 2009 8:57 AM EDT


I think the VB is so over.

With AC being nerfed, SS being dispellable, and the TOE being rarely used, the VB is no longer needed.

Good thing we have the salvage yard so all those with high NW VBs do not have to sell them for pennies on the dollar.

Not like that has never happened before.
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