Explain the RBF to me. (in General)

BadFish May 16 2009 1:00 PM EDT

I'm confused as to why it does the things it does.
Of course I understand the damage component, and the magical damage reduction may not ENTIRELY make sense but it is something that is not present on any of the other tattoos so I can understand I suppose.
However the evasion it grants is a total mystery to me.
First of all, why does a RUNE, of BALROG FLAME, help you to dodge attacks? Makes no sense. Also, I'm confused as to why the RBF has the effects it does combined with each other. It seems to me to be in theory the most dominant tattoo, with a powerful reduction-free retaliation free attack, a physically defensive aspect in evasion, and a magically defensive aspect with the DD reduction. Having all 3 of these things combined into one SuperTat makes me a little uncomfortable. OF COURSE other tattoos can be used to great effect, I'm simply saying it seems the RBF grants more bang per level than any other tattoo against the majority of teams.

Also I suppose it could be argued that the RBF is limited in that it applies to only one minion whereas tats like the RoS and ToE apply very beneficial effects to your entire team, however as long as you stay the fairly popular Single Minion Evader wearing a RBF your entire "team" is getting the defensive effects, and from what I've heard Jon hates single minion teams, so I'm simply confused.

Is there something I'm missing? What limits the RBF in its usefulness if anything?

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2009 1:03 PM EDT

Even a small AC destroys RoBF damage. Not to mention an MgS.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2009 1:05 PM EDT

it's damage can only be increased through growth of the tattoo itself.

BadFish May 16 2009 1:05 PM EDT

i'm pretty sure the mgs does nothing to rbf damage, and how would a small ac destroy rbf damage? That's like saying a small ac destroys tank damage, only even more untrue because only magical ac would affect RBF damage. Right?

BadFish May 16 2009 1:09 PM EDT

Oh, and let's not forget the protection vs. AMF backlash. What the heck is up with that?

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2009 1:10 PM EDT

I can't find the thread where it said so, but someone did some testing and showed that an MgS reduced RoBF damage at the same rate that it reduced DD attacks.
As to AC; AC is the only reason a 1.3M MPR team can beat me. It takes my 1M+ hits down to 100k.

BadFish May 16 2009 1:11 PM EDT

How much AC does that team have Marl, they better have over 300 or i'll be REALLY confused at that 90+% reduction for no apparent reason.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2009 1:14 PM EDT

Actually, it's 391. So that was sort of an extreme example. But, AC does reduce it quite a bit.
Also, RoBF damage is pretty minimal. (The upside, is, of course, that AMF/GA does not affect it.)

Colonel Custard May 16 2009 1:15 PM EDT

Ummm... 391 AC + SS is not "small." Expected damage reduction is around 82%.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2009 1:17 PM EDT

Yeah, your right. I thought it was 300.

MissingNo May 16 2009 1:19 PM EDT

Um, no, he's right. AC cripples RoBF damage. Hence why I have the third largest tattoo in the game and Mikel has the second largest, both of us have RoBF, and I still beat him. And my AC NW is not impressive by any means.

And yeah, in the other thread it was decided that the MgS also reduces RoBF damage.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2009 1:21 PM EDT

335 AC is ~10M NW? I need to get me a wall set!

Colonel Custard May 16 2009 1:24 PM EDT

Again, 335 AC isn't small. Assuming your SS is maxed (is it?), it should reduce any incoming non-magical damage by 70%. Does it reduce Mikel's RoBF damage more than 70% from the expected value?

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2009 1:26 PM EDT

Yes, but it is only 10M even if you BS it. That means it's a fairly cheap counter to it.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 16 2009 1:27 PM EDT

"Um, no, he's right. AC cripples RoBF damage."

Along with every other damage in the game except for DD, which it still kindof hurts.

QBRanger May 16 2009 1:32 PM EDT


You beat Mikel not due to AC.

It is due to the 30M HP your AS gives your 3 minons, compared to the 11M or so Mikel has naturally.

MissingNo May 16 2009 1:33 PM EDT

No, I'm pretty sure it's AC.... the difference between his RoBF and mine is hundreds of thousands of damage every single hit.

QBRanger May 16 2009 1:36 PM EDT


Then please do a test, fight Mikel with only 100AC on your minion.

QBRanger May 16 2009 1:37 PM EDT

The only real deficiency of the RBF is the fact it waits till melee to attack.

MissingNo May 16 2009 1:38 PM EDT

AC 211 makes us draw (which means only taking off 2 pieces of armor). Proof enough, Ranger?

MissingNo May 16 2009 1:39 PM EDT

King of Pain (Battle Royale) defeated DC Universe after 21 rounds of combat

That's with 99 AC on. So, looks like I was right... since I'm the one who was fighting him...

QBRanger May 16 2009 1:39 PM EDT

I guess so.

However, how does he do 30M damage to you and you only 11M to him?

His tattoo is not that much higher than yours.

MissingNo May 16 2009 1:40 PM EDT

He has AC too. :P

QBRanger May 16 2009 1:41 PM EDT

Ah, point taken.

What is the damage difference between 335, 221 and 99 AC in what you take?

MissingNo May 16 2009 1:47 PM EDT

Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (850452) ヨ 335 AC

Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (1288650) ヨ 221 AC

Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (1747918) ヨ 99 AC

Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (1931105) ヨ 0 AC

These are the first hits Mikel does to me with his RoBF. As you can see, 10m NW is able to turn his almost 2m damage into 850k...

Cube May 16 2009 1:52 PM EDT

How I had beaten Mikel with Shipping up to Boston - RoBF + 50 mil NW Wall.

A decent wall completely neuters the RoBF. Since the RoBF already does small damage, there's no way one is getting through a wall compared to a BoNE/MoD/VB etc.

Colonel Custard May 16 2009 2:24 PM EDT

If getting 355 AC for 10mil is too cheap, that's for a different thread. One point of AC reduces all damage at the same rate. Therefore, you could also say that 10mil is too cheap a counter for 70% of the BoNE's damage, except that the BoNE does more damage to begin with, so it's not such a big deal.

Op: from those numbers, it looks like your AC reduces his damage by 55%. Does only magical AC apply to RoBF, or is your SS not maxed? Either way, it would seem that AC doesn't cripple RoBF damage any more than is to be expected. It's quite effective reduction, but it's not ludicrous.

Cube May 16 2009 4:37 PM EDT

All AC applies

MissingNo May 16 2009 4:59 PM EDT

Who said anything about AC being too cheap? The original post said that the RoBF was too strong and I countered that the damage can be thoroughly reduced with 10m NW. Unless you're saying the opinions of RoBF users don't matter in a thread about the RoBF.

QBRanger May 16 2009 5:04 PM EDT

Still 1M per round of Non-GA, non-AMF damage is nothing to sneeze at.

BadFish May 16 2009 5:18 PM EDT

The original post did not say the RBF was too strong. I've combed through it and found no suggestions that the RBF should be nerfed or that it was overpowered. I just didn't understand certain aspects of it. I personally was under the impression that the RBF did more damage than it did with its melee attack, actually.

This thread has also given me a new perspective on AC :)

MissingNo May 16 2009 5:35 PM EDT

Ranger, if you want we can compromise. Boost the RoBF damage to levels like 2m, 3m, or even 4m damage and I'll be glad to take both GA and AMF backlash. ;P

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2009 6:17 PM EDT

Nah, I like 1M damage and no GA/AMF.

MissingNo May 16 2009 7:31 PM EDT

At 2.5m MPR 1m might be enough, but at 3.8m, my damage is on the lowest end of the spectrum of main damage dealers.

Cube May 16 2009 8:12 PM EDT

I don't think Ranger called it overpowered... Maybe you got confused cause he abbreviated your name as OP, heh.

It's not a bad tattoo, but I'd hardly call it overpowered.

Colonel Custard May 16 2009 8:15 PM EDT

"Who said anything about AC being too cheap?"
Marlfox implied it at 1:26 p.m.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 16 2009 8:44 PM EDT

Level for level, the RoBF does (significantly) less damage than MM.

And MM is the least damaging DD.

Sure, it's not reduced by AMF at all, but it is reduced by full AC, and unlike the DD can't be increased by AG/CoI/SB/BoE.

QBRanger May 16 2009 10:56 PM EDT

But you're forgetting a huge point, it is not vulnerable to GA.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 17 2009 4:48 AM EDT

Use a DD and Train DM.

GA is a strategic decision (or just don't fight people with DM).

Damage per level, RoBF is much less than even MM. On top of the items you can now use to boost DD, RoBF also isn't increased by Leadership.

At least it's linear, unlike UC.

Untouchable May 17 2009 5:21 AM EDT

why does it have evasion?
the world may never know.

Cube May 17 2009 5:28 AM EDT

Clearly, it is because it's hard to see what you are hitting when it is on fire... Right?


Untouchable May 17 2009 5:32 AM EDT

Cube's dah man

btw cube, have you quit CB? :p

Cube May 17 2009 5:35 AM EDT

I'll likely start playing again soon - won't be very busy for the summer.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 17 2009 6:47 AM EDT

It seems as though he doesn't have much to do now... ;)
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