Seeing as each individual DM on a team adds up as one complete effect on each individual ED (3*5m DM = enough to dispell 3*12m AS and a 12m GA), why not have the RoS work the same way against enemy DMs? instead of having it protect EDs up to 40% of it's level, why not have it just remove DM from each enemy cast equal to 40% of it's level? (3*5m DM vs. 5m RoS = 3*3m DM)
Just a thought.
July 24 2009 6:42 PM EDT
what's the difference in it protecting ED's and stopping DM?
July 24 2009 7:59 PM EDT
Hatch hates Sut.
The RoS would become more effective against a team where multiple minions are training DM. It would make no difference against a team with a single DM caster.
Cruel Hatch... I love it.
"what's the difference in it protecting ED's and stopping DM?"
As it currently stands, 3 minions casting a DM of 5m each* would result in DM being cast for 12m against all enemy minions. Against 3 minions with 8m ED spells each* would result in all XP being dispelled. If you put a 5m RoS on one of the ED casters, then you end up with DM being cast for ((5m DM lvl + 5m DM level + 5m DM lvl)*.8 for effect = 12m - 2m for RoS resistance which equals) 10m on all minions. So basically, in this scenario, Team A just manged to neutralize Team B's XP (even though team B has 60% more XP) and tattoo slot (Even though it is the tattoo designed to be the counter to DM).
With the "new RoS", 3 minions casting a DM of 5m each* against a team with 3 minions casting EDs of 8m each* with a 5m RoS would result in a cast of ((5m lvl - 2m RoS resistance) + (5m lvl - 2m RoS resistance) + (5m level - 2m RoS resistance) = 9m DM level *8 for effect equals out to) 7.2m DM against each minion. While the sheer concentration of XP into DM still packs a helluva whallop, it'll still allow for a team with 60% more XP and the anti-DM tat to perform functionally.
*level, not effect
While typing that, I got to thinking. XP concentration into a single minion makes that minion much much better at whatever it does in many more ways than the numbers that are added. There is a world of difference between a mage/tank/ defensive enchanter on a spread=XP team and a mage/tank/defensiveenchanter with heavily concentrated XP. Throwing 30k Dex on the minion next to your tank doesn't help your tank, nor does training a quick 30k SG on the minion next to your mage (unless you're trying to get little 5k HP minions outta the way :P). start training a second or third AS, and your susceptibility to DM skyrockets. But put 30k EC/AMF/or DM on the minion next to your primary offensive enchanter, and try to find a negative.
Basically, EOs are the only types of stats where XP concentration means nothing. So why not give it meaning? The above mentioned DM idea is one possible way.
Far as EC, I'd say why not let one underappreciated stat be countered by another (or two). Perhaps have Haste/GS take their levels out of EC's ST/DX drain. For example, when you have a 10m EC effect vs. 5m Haste effect, Haste is not casted, and the EC effect works as if it were 5m level (against the DX side only). But if you have 4 ECs of 2.5m each casting against a team casting one haste with a 5m effect, then the 4 ECs go poof (on the Dex side, Strength drain is still full power without GS), and Haste is cast at it's effect minus highest enemy EC effect.
Far as AMF (*prepares for all the stuff that is likely to be thrown at him), you could have NSC take away from each AS cast. Example, one big AMF casts for .5 against a mage, mage throws on some +10 NSC, and now gets cast against for .4 (XP concentration ftw!) same mage goes up against a team with 2 AMFs, both high enough to cast for an effective .3 each, removes .1 from both casts to come up with an end result of somewhere around .28-.3 final effect (due to the non-linear nature of AMF effect). Though, with this in place, AMF would either have to be boosted (not a fan of this option though due to it utterly destroying AGs as a possibility for mages), or the NSC would have to be brought back a bit via a heavier upgrade curve.
btw, if the ideas in the reply right above this one seema little halfbaked, let me just inform you that the raw ingredients haven't even been mixed yet, and that I typed everything there as it came to my head ^_^
August 7 2009 12:10 PM EDT
too much text to read? Generally missed? or just not worth discussing?
Was hoping to get more discussion outta this... Guess I'll have to come up with another crazy idea at work today and post it later :P
It sounds to me like DM is overpowered.
August 7 2009 2:11 PM EDT
the way DM stacks is, none of the ED's stack like that.
August 7 2009 2:16 PM EDT
DM is just fine where it is.
"DM is just fine where it is."
The point is beyond DM (though the thread stemmed from a half-baked idea I came up with on the bus ride home from work). DM in general works just fine.
"the way DM stacks is, none of the ED's stack like that. "
That was my point. EOs in general are the only stat-type that have no benefets for concentration and/or drawbacks for dilution.
3 minions with 1m DX each will be relying almost entirely on pth to hit a minion with 2.4m DX
3 minions with a 1m Evasion will dodge less than 1 minion with 2.4m evasion.
3 minions with a 1m DD spell will be crushed by AMF where a 2.4m spell would be able to get by much better.
3 minions with a 1m ED are much easier to dispell than one minion with a 2.4m ED.
On the other hand, 3 minions with a 1m EO work every bit as effectively as 1 minion with 3m DM
August 7 2009 7:28 PM EDT
Those are the pros and cons of a single minion vs a multi-minion character.
Single minion is more concentration of xp. Leading to generally higher stats and spells. Less vulnerable to EO spells.
Multi-minion characters get less concentration but have more kill slots and more variability in what they can do and cast.
Typically the EO spells as a group are defensive. The ED ones offensive.
I have no problem with the current system.
But let us take a look at your scenarios from your last post:
"3 minions with 1m DX each will be relying almost entirely on pth to hit a minion with 2.4m DX"
One can learn Haste to help with the dexterity gap, even using a RoS to help vs DM. And if they go DM, you can use DD spells without fear of AMF. Even use decay.
"3 minions with a 1m Evasion will dodge less than 1 minion with 2.4m evasion."
But you have 3 kill slots. And if you use a PL/HP/TSA minion, your hp effectively are increased by 10%. And you can use a high AC wall also, while a 1 minion character cannot. More variability in ones strategy.
"3 minions with a 1m DD spell will be crushed by AMF where a 2.4m spell would be able to get by much better."
This is very true. And the reason near the top may characters are familiar-centric.
"3 minions with a 1m ED are much easier to dispel than one minion with a 2.4m ED."
We do the RoS for this situation. And plenty of people use it that way.
"On the other hand, 3 minions with a 1m EO work every bit as effectively as 1 minion with 3m DM "
Very true, but DM is a defensive type enchantment.
I like the current system. But I may be in the minority and such discussions are great for the game.
As long as they are civil.
I'm actually a fan of the system myself, was more just trying to stir up some discussion than anything else (while still endorsing XP concentration):P
That's why I picked minor, situational nerfs. With the proposed setup, the only time DM would see any trouble would be when multiple minions are casting DM against an RoS. EC is pretty unloved nowaday, so i had to make it's nerf something that is even less loved, hence the referencing of Haste/GS. Far as AMF, I'm don't even like my own idea, but I had to put something for the sake of fairness to the other EOs.
On another note, I just had another RoS idea... How about we re-name it?
Solitude - the state or situation of being alone
RoS - the only growable tattoo in CB that can't be effectively used on a single minion
Yeah Hatch, that is rather ironic and contradictory :P
August 7 2009 10:24 PM EDT
Bring whatever you want.
You want to hide behind the lamest of anything CB has ever come up with (DEs). Fine by me. If you think I care a fraking inch, you're very much mistaken.
Bring the imbalance to me. I'll imbalance it right back, one way or another.
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