Exbow Question (in General)

Look for some clarity on the Exbow.

Here's a PbP (only the first round or second... I forget) with 'The Iconics 3e':


Hot skewered Ember with DMON BOW OF POWER [1275103]

Ember shot Hot with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [174157]
Hot looks weaker!

Hot hit Regdar with DMON BOW OF POWER [134394]
Alhandra absorbs damage [134394]
Hot hit Regdar with DMON BOW OF POWER [143824]
Alhandra absorbs damage [143824]




Pre Battle ST: 9,368,910
Post Battle ST: 329,456

One shot, 9m ST drained.




Honestly, I'm a little too "under the weather" to look back at the changelog and see how the Exbow was changed. But, is this right? Does this make sense?


Seems like it is doing the same thing as it was before it was "nerfed", completely nuking TONS of Strength with one shot. A little too much IMHO.

Any help clarification would be much appreciated! =)

It was changed so that the damage it does is a large factor in how much it drains. It was left as a powerful counter to a powerful strat.

At least it was limited in effect for use on enchanters. This means EC is once again a way to prevent it.

Wow it seems like the exbow is super powerful to me.. They also can hit a higher DX minion as much or more often than a ELB with similar DX and Archery. Even if the ExBow shooter has 1/10 the DX of the opponent. I tried this with my Axbow. Maybe it is still a glitch? I hope.

I'd suggest running a controlled testing before making statements.

I've never seen anything to suggest what you're saying, and everything we know says different. What you describe sounds like using a bow without archery.

Well it could have been just that once - and the randomness factor being random.. I will see how controlled I can make a test and get back to you. Sorry if I made a statement without adequate proof.

I do have some data.

I have +205 DBs on my tank with a 3.4M dex.

Novice has a +176 exbow with +11 AoL and +36 BoF.

All are named but the AoL.

His tank has 1.5M dex.

So his PTH for the exbow is :

11 + 19 (BoF) + 183 = 213

My neg PTH is 213 so we cancel each other out.

Now in the first round of missile novice hits my tank about 1/3 of the time. That is cold hard facts. 36 out of 108 battles.

So how with the 60% BTH of the xbow and the "supposed" penalties to hit in early missile round with the xbow does he hit me that much.

It should be less than 20%, more like 10% if we are told things correctly.

How do I get that?

My dex is 3x his, so 1/3 of 60 BTH is 20%, then take a bit away from the early round missile penalties -- about 10-20% total CTH at most.

So perhaps the exbow has a higher base BTh than we see, or has no penalty in the first missile round.

And the exbow does not need a skill to properly use.

Now if my more NW, more x, more +, would hit for umpteen million I would see no problem. I could barley hit 1.5M with a 7M level ToA lol

A little miscalcuation by me.

My dex is 3.4M vs his 1.5M.

That is 44% subject to the penalty.

Which can account for the 33% chance I am seeing him hit.

So it seems that the CTH/BTH of the exbow is properly done.

But it still does not need a skill to PROPERLY use, unlike the ELB which is unique in that it needs a lot of xp spent to properly use it.

1. dex vs dex is non existend
2. DB's don't do their job properly
3. the EXbow has been changed to satisfy you tanks so it can no longer be used on an enchanter.
4. finally someone uses it properly and you complain again?
5. Does this something has to do with the inbalance between PTH and counter PTH?

1. dex vs dex is non existend

Huh? What do you mean?

2. DB's don't do their job properly

The certainly do. It is leadership that really hoses over tanks. It is basically "free" PTH as long as that minion lasts. Something that you cannot overcome with DBs without spending million more than their weapons PTH.

3. the EXbow has been changed to satisfy you tanks so it can no longer be used on an enchanter.

And that is bad how?

4. finally someone uses it properly and you complain again?

No, I was stating that the CTH/BTH might now be proper. After reviewing it, the leadership is the screwy thing. Since most of the time you need 1 hit to drain most of the strength on tank vs tank hits, leadership gives you that extra PTH to get that hit in.

5. Does this something has to do with the inbalance between PTH and counter PTH?

Leadership my friend. That is the imbalance.

1. how is dex vs dex non existent you ask?
Since BTH can not be reduced, even at 60% you have more chance of shooting then not.
2. They don't reduce dex hits or BTH hits only PTH hits.
3. It is not
4. And leadership how on earth did that get OP all of a sudden? Ah when dealing with PTH
5. PTH and counter PTH are fine when dex, BTH are not an issue.

I posted this because I thought 9M ST drained for one shot was a little much.

Ok,

60% BTH should be lower in the early rounds of missile according to Jon.

DBs should not reduce BTH I believe. Otherwise we have Mikel or anyone else making a massive set of DBs for total immunity to being hit. One hit a round given BTH is too much?

And leadership is very powerful. I did not specifically state OVERpowered, but very powerful. And the reason the exbow is still very powerful. All one needs is 1-2 hits and leadership helps overcome DBs AND a large dex disadvantage.

I just guess we have different views on BTH. I think it is well balanced now since dexterity can lower the BTH.

Since when can dex lower BTH? Where did you get that idea?

And no 9 mil is just about right.
Since the drain has not changed only the way it works. Don't cry OP when someone found a way in killing of tank teams. Try DD or any other form of damage vs those and they die fast.

I stand corrected dex does indeed reduce BTH. but that still leaves PTH and dex.

Dreky, it was changed, but the curve on how much STR it drains is still very, very tight. So, if you are appreciably hit, the STR drain goes from nothing to just about 100% very quickly.

I have no idea why the curve needs to be so binary, but hey, that's fun, right?

how does dex reduce bth exactly? say if my opponent has 5m dex, how much more dex would i need to reduce a 100 bth elb to 0 bth?

It doesn't reduce bth, it reduces cth below bth which is different. You really won't be able to reduce it to 0 without using EC. With just dex you can probably get something like 50% cth for the other team by having 2 times their dex but more than that against an archer team generally isn't feasible.

i was actually wondering more along the lines of with ec. it never seemed all that effective at the high end with kwai chang so was just wondering what the interaction was for eating into bth.

for example, i have 3m dex and so does my opponents hal, my ec takes his hal down to 1.5. does that lower the bth from 100?

You don't lower the bth, but you would lower the cth granted from dex from 100 down to 50 effectively taking off 1/2 a hit each round in that situation.

so you are saying that nothing can lower bth? in effect a 100 bth item will always hit once per round with no other penalties (ranged or melee)?

No, thats not what I am saying. I am saying you don't change the bth but the cth granted from that is lowered below the amount of bth that you have. So in effect they are only getting 50% cth and can only hit once every other round not 1 hit every round.

BTH is the weapons base to hit.

The number displayed on your battle report is your % to hit given EQUAL dexterity.

Dexterity differences can raise and lower your BTH.

The lowest is 0, from a severe dex disadvantage.

The maximum is 100 + Base To Hit, with full dex advantage, which is about 3-4x dexterity.

CHANCE to hit is the evasion, DB, + on weapon side of the equation.

CTH cannot reduce BTH. It CAN reduce the 100 + BTH but cannot reduce it below the Base to hit.

The only thing that I read that can reduce Base to hit is the AoI which is a straight 20% off the Base to hit.

"The certainly do. It is leadership that really hoses over tanks. It is basically "free" PTH as long as that minion lasts. Something that you cannot overcome with DBs without spending million more than their weapons PTH."

The same applies to an EXBow user using a ToA.

Certainly GL,

However if one is using the ToA to maximize the exbow, that does leave one more vulnerable to magic and without the HP regeneration capacity of the TSA.

While the exbow is better than before this recent change, the 1 hit = all strength gone is something I would love to see mages have to face.

ok, so we are arguing semantics. ; )

my first question was this:

"how does dex reduce bth exactly? say if my opponent has 5m dex, how much more dex would i need to reduce a 100 bth elb to 0 bth?"

so, then, change that to:

how does dex eat into bth exactly? say if my opponent has 5m dex, how much more dex would i need to reduce a 100 bth elb to 0 cth or no hits per round?

Dude,

I have no idea on the negative BTH, but to get full 100 + BTH one needs between 3 and 4 times your opponents dexterity.

So I would assume 3 to 4 times as much to get to 0 BTH.

hmm, i thought 100 bth was all things equal and you could get 200 more to hit from full dex advantage?

here is where i get that from the dex entry in our wiki glossary:

Dexterity, Dex, DX: A measure of how often a minion will hit an opposing minion with a physical attack, or vice versa. Two minions with evenly matched dexterity will hit each other about 50% of the time. The maximum number of hits achievable on an opponent due to dexterity is two. More hits per round can only be achieved via 'plus-to-hit' (pth).

Yes, that is correct.

so we are getting 100 plus 200 = 300 to hit from bth plus dex advantage or 3 hits per round with no other penalties and ignoring pth?

Sorry,

You get your BTH with equal dex advantage and another 100 from full dex advantage.

The wiki is poorly outdated ever since Jon went to BTH.

ok, so when the attacker's dex is lower than the defender's dex. it will starting into into the cth granted from the bth of weapons. we just don't know how much or how fast?

start eating into rather than the gibberish above. : )

Its a ratio. Just take the attackers dex divide by the defenders dex and multiply by the bth. That should give you your dex granted cth and if it is over 100+bth then it is capped at that amount.

ok, so if it is that easy, if a hal is attacking my jiggy with 5m dex, how much dex would i need on the jiggy to make him miss totally?

just assume that my evasion cancells out his weapon pth so that we are just dealing with bth and dex cth.

regardless of how it works now, this is how i would like to see it work:

if the defender has more dex than the attacker, that ratio of higher dex would eat into weapon bth. so if the defender's dex is 50 percent higher, then he loses 50 percent of his cth granted by weapon bth.

if the defender has 100 percent more dex than the attacker, then the cth granted by weapon bth is 100 percent gone.

if you don't like exbows knocking ya down, train more dex or use ec.

yes, this could allow someone to knock out all cth of an opponent. that person would have to have evasion/db's taking out all pth. plus dex advantage though. ; )