Score loss from untraining? (in General)


TheHatchetman September 9 2009 11:36 PM EDT

During a retrain, isn't score supposed to come back up as you retrain your XP? How does one with over 4m score retrain and end up at just over 200 score when fully trained? Almaisky recently retrained to a new setup, that beats mine with a score of 228 before I updated stats. Went up to 200k, and with a residual loss of over 7m score to my notice, he's done this more than once... Can be more specific once I figure out what else to say...

AdminTitan September 9 2009 11:40 PM EDT

Well right now I can't explain it going that low, but I can tell you that score won't return to it's normal level, thanks to the PR cap. So, if you retrained for instance your score would be capped at 2m.

Demigod September 9 2009 11:45 PM EDT

HA!

Smile

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2009 11:49 PM EDT

manipulating scores on purpose is pretty cheap...

Wasn't this supposed to be fixed?
When did training stop adding score?

AdminTitan September 9 2009 11:52 PM EDT

There was a "fix" put in place, but it didn't really *fix* a lot of the problems.

KrossOut September 10 2009 2:03 AM EDT

Not cool... he could beat some of my targets and lowered there score so much that they gave me CBs 10-20% lower than what they were usually giving me...

Sickone September 10 2009 3:27 AM EDT

Hi guys, what's going on ?
Oh, THAT thing ?
When I complained about it back when it was changed, everybody said I should just shut up :)
And when I made a itty bitty experiment everybody got angry !
Well... carry on then :P

Sickone September 10 2009 3:30 AM EDT

Here's my PROPOSED fix:

WHEN UNTRAINING, never change score.

WHEN TRAINING, cap score at some value (2*PR would be nice, but I guess 1*PR will do too in a pinch).

Problem solved. Too simple ?
:)

kevlar September 10 2009 3:35 AM EDT

you should lose some score being that you lost a some XP?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2009 6:52 PM EDT

Gaming the system should become a fine-able offense.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 10 2009 6:58 PM EDT

did he retrain away all that mpr or is he sitting on a bunch of untrained xp?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2009 7:04 PM EDT

He was saving some of it

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 10 2009 7:06 PM EDT

I don't think it's that big of a deal, people are seeing scores drop across the board due to me. I'm farming top end tanks that don't usually get farmed... In return their lower scores are causing score of their opponents to drop, all the while I get farmed by mages (easily) that are much much lower score than me... (I woke up today to a score of 4m) then the cycle repeats itself.

So I'll take the blame :D lol

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2009 7:07 PM EDT

You're missing it Jir... someone is gaming the score system in revenge for being attacked. It's costing someone significant rewards on an NCB.
This is ugly, and needs to be stopped.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 10 2009 7:10 PM EDT

I dunno, would need clarification on it. I can see both sides of it... if he wants to sacrifice his MPR to do it, I see a cost and a benefit...

While I'm pretty sure what he is doing is considered abuse, I could play advocate and say that it's no different than paying people to farm a certain clan...

In the end it's almost the same effect...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2009 7:14 PM EDT

This is exploitation of a bug and should be punishable as such.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 10 2009 7:24 PM EDT

Maybe. Either way it's amusing that Hatch would make someone so angry that they would do this.

Shrug it off, it's not the end of the world, and certainly not worth getting too upset about hatch, you're a ninja man!

TheHatchetman September 10 2009 7:27 PM EDT

Giving up your character to intentionally sabotage someone else's growth is not nearly a penalty for someone who is just going to start another NUB soon as this one is over...

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 10 2009 7:34 PM EDT

If what he is doing with the score system is abuse I'm sure he/she will get what's coming to him/her.

Though I don't see how nuking someones score/ their targets score is in any way abuse... (maybe what A is doing, but in general) How is that any different than paying someone to farm a clan? You're paying someone to nuke someone's clan scores resulting in less of a clan bonus = nuking their growth...

It's the same thing but on a little bit larger scale.

So while I agree that abuse should be punished, the actual concept of nuking someones growth by killing the score of their targets is rather intriguing to me...

NooneKnows September 10 2009 7:53 PM EDT

clan scores can drop a max of 15%, and as far as I saw, Conan's clan bonus wasn't nearly as crippled as Hatch would have preferred ;)

several of my main targets went from 100% CB four hours ago to less than 50% now. something isn't right (especially when a certain character's score seems to be less than 0.1% of his MPR).

NooneKnows September 10 2009 7:55 PM EDT

worse, the inactive characters I farm now give me better bonus than the active ones, while it was just the opposite a few hours ago.

gols090 [forge of me] September 10 2009 7:57 PM EDT

It's been like that the past few days for me... I know challenge bonuses should slowly be going down, but targets have gone from 25%+ to 20% at most and around 15% frequently over the last few days. I'm not exactly sure that this is the reason, but since score moves around so much, I'm guessing this is at least a part of the problem.

QBRanger September 10 2009 10:25 PM EDT

There are a few other ways to lower your score if you really want.

He is losing xp on his NUB or NCB which is a huge penalty to him.

Rawr September 10 2009 10:30 PM EDT

I dont understand why losing score matters.... he's losing a lot of MPR retraining and such, so hes the one who is "losing." The only thing I can think of is that your lower score will make your opponents score lower, thus lowering your challenge bonus somewhat. Which doesn't seem like a big deal... change your strategy so that he can't beat you if that is the case. Also, he looks like a NUB, so it is DEFINITELY his loss.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2009 10:35 PM EDT

His char is worthless to him... He's lowering someone's rewards by exploiting a bug. He drags down the score of people he attacks dramatically, thereby lowering the rewards they get.

It's a bug, and it needs fixing. I also believe that anyone caught exploiting it deserves punishment.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2009 10:36 PM EDT

Hosted by imgur.com

QBRanger September 10 2009 10:41 PM EDT

I agree someone exploiting something does need to be punished.

However, how long does it take for scores to normalize after such an event? A day at most before novice gets our scores back up again?

If he is a new player, has someone asked him via CM why is he doing this and can he find another way to vent his frustrations.

Or attempt via any means to chat with him?

Sickone September 10 2009 11:04 PM EDT

"However, how long does it take for scores to normalize after such an event?"

To normalize ? About 2-3 days after it stops.
To recover ? 3-5 weeks.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 1:09 AM EDT

the only communication I've seen from him seemed glib and was hearsay passed on from someone else...

However he has continued to do it after the thread was posted.

AdminTitan September 11 2009 1:54 AM EDT

I really don't think Almaisky should be "punished". While I don't really like what he did, this was Jon supposed fix, it's working as intended, Sickone pointed out the problem, he got ignored and insulted, so until Jon says that there is a problem, there's no problem. This would be like blaming exbow users for using exbows pre-nerf, it's not their problem that Jon took a ridiculous amount of time to fix it, same with this, it just like the exbow, is "working as intended."

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 2:02 AM EDT

I will admit that I didn't initially realize that this is exactly the same thing that Sickone did long before Almaisky joined. However I think the community outrage over that should have made very clear that this isn't acceptable. Jon's been made aware of it specifically again and hopefully he fixes it. If not it looks like we're going to have a hole in score the size of a certain someones bruised ego...

Please delete my previous post (kicks self and closes Chrome)

AdminTitan September 11 2009 2:04 AM EDT

I'd like to point out that this is Jon's game, and quite a few people were out raged at the exbow/evasion/whatever. Until Jon comes on here and 1) just addresses the problem, I can hardly place the blame on Almaisky. Was what he did nice, no, not by any means. Whose fault is it? Jon's without a shadow of doubt in my mind. (Sorry Jon.)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 2:05 AM EDT

The bug should be fixed, exploiting it isn't excused because it hasn't been.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 2:30 AM EDT

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002hCS&all_p=1 (The Sickone Experiment)

There is no question that the community regards this as a bug.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2009 7:02 AM EDT

iirc, jon's fix was based on the other end of the exploit. people were gaining score by retraining and jon capped how that could work. no one was exploiting the opposite end of the spectrum though and so there hasn't been a reaction to that...yet.

Cube September 11 2009 8:17 AM EDT

It always seemed like an issue to me, but I was just thinking, couldn't someone just lower their score by purposefully losing to someone else anyway?

In which case... you could charge BA for every untrain? Not the best solution, but could help to lessen the abuse.

QBJohnnywas September 11 2009 9:34 AM EDT

There's already a cost for retraining, the loss of XP. Fact is, if somebody is going to do something like this they're going to do it. The only way of fixing it really and truly in order to stop it would be to not make it possible.

But as ever where CB is concerned, be careful what you wish for....

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 10:33 AM EDT

The fix is as simple as reinstating score gain on retrain.

QBRanger September 11 2009 10:44 AM EDT

How much score will you reinstate?

I have no idea if the program "remembers" ones score before you retrain. Or if that is hard to program.

Should the score go up to PR? That would be a bug to artificially inflate scores.

Or should the score just not change upon retraining?

Then you have a situation where someone untrains completely, with a high score letting others "abuse" his high score with easy wins.

What if you totally unlearn and retrain only 1/2 your xp? Do you get back 1/2 your score?

I think we would need to know if the program keeps a record of your score just before your retrain or if not, can it before a permanent fix can be made.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 10:55 AM EDT

match score to mpr... it's simple enough and not going to be so high as to be exploitable

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2009 11:06 AM EDT

just get rid of score and base challenge bonus and rewards on vpr to vpr? in effect, still have score but it matters only for bragging rights.

the formula would have to change for determining challenge bonus with a much smaller range.

Sickone September 11 2009 11:23 AM EDT

The problem is a two-step problem.

The first part of the problem is that by un-training and re-training any score you might have had above the PR cap is simply lost into nothingness.

The second part of the problem is that getting your score up to the cap (if any cap exists) through retraining is quite easy if you have a tattoo, since just one fight could put your score well above the small PR you have at the moment before re-training but after un-training. If no cap exists, insanely high scores of a completely unnatural source could be created.

...

The first part of the problem can be solved in two ways : either DON'T drop score when untraining (can be still exploited to generate score, but ONLY if score was below the cap, which seldom is the case) or have a "memory" of the highest score reached and replace the score cap to THAT value instead of it being based on PR.
Personally, I'd say "just don't drop the score at all" would be the most sensible solution. That score will be assimilated fast enough by everybody else if the newly retrained character got weaker.

The second part of the problem is already (partially) solved by the existing cap, even if the cap is IMHO a bit too low. The latter solution to the first part of the problem could just as well be used here, the exploit potential is reduced a lot (you already HAD that much score in the past, there's no major exploit to be able to get that high again).

___

So, we have two combined solutions then...

1) leaving the cap style as it is now, to 1*PR (but preferably more, 1.5*PR or even 2*PR if possible), but NOT dropping score at all when untraining... so the overall result would be an increase in score if below the cap (score which will get "picked up" by the others if abnormally high)

2) leaving the score loss on untraining as is, but memorizing the highest score reached by the character, and making the score-training-cap THAT value instead of PR-based

Cube September 11 2009 12:06 PM EDT

"There's already a cost for retraining, the loss of XP"

But it drops the same amount of score if you untrain Armor proficiency as if you untrain massive amounts of Strength.

AdminJonathan September 11 2009 3:51 PM EDT

I don't think trying to guess what score should be after training XP should be is the right thing to do. Untraining gives you more XP to spend but doesn't change that.

Personally I think if someone's willing to pay the untrain penalty just to lower someone else's score for a few hours, so be it.

QBOddBird September 11 2009 3:54 PM EDT

In the higher ranks, however, that has a trickle-down effect. One player could effectively lower the entire upper echelon's score at that (expensive, but simultaneously, fairly minute) penalty.

It's hard to balance

This is a costly penalty and people who are willing to pay the price can do it

with

Exactly how much of a penalty is required for anyone to rethink actions of malicious intent (i.e. killing all the score at the top, and no I'm not accusing anyone of doing any such thing)

Neo Japan September 11 2009 4:01 PM EDT

am I the only one that doesn't give a rats tail about score?

QBRanger September 11 2009 4:17 PM EDT

Actually you should as it is the primary method for determining your rewards.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 4:40 PM EDT

It's NOT a few hours, it's a cascade effect that can permanently damage rewards for someone in the bonus period. It's a bug that allows manipulation of the score system. *shakes head*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 4:45 PM EDT

I guess it's time to stock up on throw away chars and cripple rewards for NCB's we don't like

QBRanger September 11 2009 5:10 PM EDT

Jon,

I would ask you again to review this bug.

This eliminates score in the system, even if for a few hours.

However, from my experience, it takes at least a day to reaccumulate the scores to where they were.

And this person is purposely doing this to mess with everyone's rewards.

For people trying the NCB, it really hurts with their accelerated growth, given each of their BA is equal to 5 of mine or novice's. So even a few hours or a day can mean a loss of a lot of MPR.

I know you believe characters are crap, however, most of us who have developed characters get attached to them and like to see a less throw-away type of game with respect to characters.

This bug/feature is just really bad for the overall health and well being and atmosphere of the community.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 5:14 PM EDT

I can't even bring myself to do it...

I could take a 3.8m score char and cut that in half, cutting everyone he fights down by a quarter (guesstimates) cutting his chal bonus in half (assuming he was at 100%). I can do this over and over against folks with any kind of weakness in their strat (which any specialized setup has). Day after day keeping them from earn the rewards they would otherwise have.

The only thing I lose is BA, the char I'd use is worthless anyway.

...not to mention we know how every score based tourney is going to end.

QBRanger September 11 2009 5:22 PM EDT

Have people so quickly forgot what Sickone did:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002hCS&all_p=1

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 11 2009 5:23 PM EDT

I might as well state what I've already stated in chat, just to add to the conversation!...

The problem COULD be bad, horrible, evil, omgtheendoftheworld...

But who would do this? I don't see it happening frequently if at all... One player was angry at another player, and pulled the trigger... How often is that going to happen?

It could be avoided entirely with a fix, but I really just can't fathom why anyone would do this, let alone multiple people/frequently...

The only thing that DOES concern me, is how it could effect future tournaments.

Would a fix be nice?

...

Yes.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 5:24 PM EDT

I'm one step from making what he did look tame...

User A untrains to 0 score, retrains and beats an unequipped Dago.

I fight like normal after having my score cut, Rinse Repeat...

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 11 2009 5:25 PM EDT

Ranger, anyone who wasn't current with that thread, is NOT going to re-read that giant wall of text.

How about a nice summary?

QBRanger September 11 2009 5:25 PM EDT

Jir,

We have a person doing it now, right now.

Effective scores throughout CB.

Including the NCBers who treat each BA like it was gold, since it is.

Each hour their CB is artifically low, is MPR lost. And also money lost.

This is a bug, that possibly has no perfect solution.

But a patchwork solution would be nice.

QBRanger September 11 2009 5:27 PM EDT

Key point of that thread.

Sickone was doing just this to prove a point that unlearning=losing score is very bad.

People saw their challenge bonuses dry up and go negative in some cases.

People got very upset.

People almost rioted.

People told Sickone to stop which he eventually did.

Nothing got changed with the bug.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 11 2009 5:28 PM EDT

I don't think it compares to the downtime I faced in my own NCB... Granted I stopped caring about this run a long time ago, (hmm funny how it co-insides with the 3? days worth of downtime over a week?)

=) I think I'm personally lowering top scores a lot more then he is... Should I be punished?

Sickone September 11 2009 5:37 PM EDT

"Sickone was doing just this to prove a point that unlearning=losing score is very bad."

Umm... I haven't unlearned a single bit of XP during that entire experiment, I merely moved the score away from the top tiers to the bottom tiers. I was NOT DESTROYING score at any point during my experiment, merely moving it on random people with low MPR that could beat me when I unequipped my weapon.
What this guy does now however _IS_ pure score destruction.

Sickone September 11 2009 5:39 PM EDT

My point back then was that the score cap was set artificially too low, and that not enough score is being generated overall.
The thought about score destruction hadn't even crossed my mind back then.
In comparison, my experiment was a fairly benign one :))

Sickone September 11 2009 5:58 PM EDT

"AdminJonathan

Personally I think if someone's willing to pay the untrain penalty just to lower someone else's score for a few hours, so be it. "


So, in other words, if novice and a couple of other people would bring down the TOP SCORE in the entire game to about 2-3 mil by only following existing game mechanics and nothing else, that would be pretty much ok with you and no action will be taken against ANY of them ?

TheHatchetman September 11 2009 7:05 PM EDT

HAH!

HAH!

HAH!

Sickone September 12 2009 8:27 AM EDT

What's so funny Hatch ? :P

Almaisky September 12 2009 8:34 AM EDT

Awesome, I think CB will start to get fun for me again.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 12 2009 9:15 AM EDT

Alma: You've now taken over my top spot for weakest player (not yet banned)

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] September 12 2009 9:17 AM EDT

Selling your Hal and AoJ with NUB left told me something different.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 12 2009 9:27 AM EDT

Sick: I believe it's because he knew this was the likely answer...

Almaisky September 12 2009 9:48 AM EDT

HF helps to kill score, but it's not the only way.

Ouch, weakest player.

HAH!

HAH!

HAH!

QBRanger September 12 2009 10:46 AM EDT

Well it seems we now have someone doing this exact same thing.

Someone who has stated they really do not care much for their character or NUB.

Someone who is trying, intentionally, to drive scores down.

And as I understand, this is perfectly legal and acceptable to the developers.

So let us see how this ends up.

2% loss on xp does of course add up over time and perhaps this idiot will eventually lose the ability to beat those much higher up like Lost's character.

Good luck to us all.

Cube September 12 2009 11:52 AM EDT

"2% loss on xp does of course add up over time"

Well that's the problem, you don't have to retrain everything. You can merely untrain and retrain Armor proficiency at base and get the score drop.

Cube September 12 2009 11:54 AM EDT

Oh my bad, I hadn't tested it and assumed it still worked that way.. So I guess it'll eventually stop..

gols090 [forge of me] September 12 2009 11:55 AM EDT

That doesn't work. Untraining armor proficiency doesn't lower score at all, at least on my minions. I unlearned a base SS though, and that lowered score by about 2k. I'm not sure exactly how the score drop is calculated, but a large untrained exp seems to be necessary for a big drop.

Why is untraining not in the dictionary?
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002s4q">Score loss from untraining?</a>