Clans and their bonuses: how to change / fix (in Debates)
October 27 2009 2:54 PM EDT
I'd like to start a discussion about the following:
# Score / raw score: 128 / 116
# Rank / Bonus: 26 / 9.1%
And for what? For having someone lose some battles against one of your characters in your clan. You yourself do not play (or perhaps even know) this game anymore: Last login: Oct 12 2008.
# Score / raw score: -12 / -12
# Rank / Bonus: 253 / 0%
And for what? for having 6 players in your clan who all are fighting their butts out to stay in the positive because they all seem to be nice and competitive targets.
I see injustice here and the clan system should really change. How would you change / fix the clan system?
I'd see possibilities here to increase the clan bonus from 15% to, say, 20%.
Perhaps we should exclude clans of whom no fights are being challenged themselves (i.e. inactive / holiday characters)
Perhaps we should try something different?
October 27 2009 2:56 PM EDT
If we would only include clans which would have fights being challenged, this would then change to the following:
Clan 1: makes fights and has highest score, 15% bonus
Clan 26: makes fights but has ~0 score, 9.1% bonus
Clan 27: does not make fights but has +100 score because of someone losing against a character of it, 0% score.
clan 27 - 500: also 0% score
October 27 2009 3:20 PM EDT
I agree completely. The system is wacky. It's not right at all that an inactive clan is doing better then an active one. Honestly, I think clans should be disbanded if there is not a challenged battle in them within a 1 week period.
October 27 2009 3:22 PM EDT
The only problem this would create is less Clan characters to fight, but that's the same around the board it only gives a disadvantage to low/inactive characters.
October 27 2009 3:24 PM EDT
"...it only gives a disadvantage to low/inactive characters..."
There lies another problem. New players and players who start a new character. These players are at a big disadvantage then.
So my solution would keep having it based on the amount of clans we now have, but only base the bonus it on active clans.
gateman, under the current system that would also decrease the amount of clans receiving a bonus since the number of clans getting a bonus is a percent of clans in existence with a score.
if we could somehow use a ratio of clan battles fought (battles against other clan targets) and the current score system to determine the bonus, that would take care of many of the clan issues.
October 27 2009 4:04 PM EDT
Since there are so few clan targets in the middle ranks I often get (some) clan points from battling non-clan characters. If only clan battles were counted that would give upper echelon MPR rich teams without any NCB or NUBs players a huge advantage. This would discourage the little guy (players with low MPR). So I don't think that is helpful, but actively fighting characters would be fine. How often do they have to fight? If you don't fight one day but have an invincible character that wins a lot of battles, that seems OK but long term i agree that is not good.
October 27 2009 4:34 PM EDT
A clan with nobody logging it doesn't matter at all what thier clan rating is first of all. So why even care that an inactive clan has 9%. All that means is that if your clan can't keep ahead of people who don't even log in anymore, you don't deserve to have that 9% that those people obviously do.
On top of that it's only 15% max, and that's for clans with 6-8 people all maintaining at least 1k if not 2k clan points. Which from what i've researched so far takes a fair amount of attacking people who are giving you less than your personal maximum challenge rating.
With this taken into account and the fact that everyone in the clan is doing that, I wonder if the total XP/money gained in some of the top clans would actually go up if they all dropped about 500 clan points per person and all gained an extra 20% average challenge rating from thier fights.
To me, 15%, or some fraction thereof is not large enough to even start a discussion thread about, but since it has been started, if you want to encourage more clan fighting and competing for the top spots then you need to have more rewards than just 15%.
Personally I think it would be a much better system if the points didn't reset every 24 hours but instead built up the entire week and then disappeared on sunday as they do now. Your clan bonus has nothing to do with your current points, just how well you did last week, so you have the same bonus for a full week straight. And if you had records that lasted longer than 24 hours showing who the top clans have been each week, each month, each year etc.
The reason people strive to get the top tatoo or the top MPR or whatever is because it is tracked and saved somewhere that other people can look at, that's the motivation. With your clan ranking system that resets itself constantly it takes away that drive. What you really need is a more stable point system with a hall of champions place for people to see who the best are. Then you'll get your clan fighting that you're striving to build.
October 27 2009 4:37 PM EDT
Wraithlin: please do not forget this:
#1 MPR: King of Pain (5362765)
#1 clan: Battle Royale -> character: King of Pain (6,347,565)
See a connection? I do...
October 27 2009 4:43 PM EDT
So you're saying that the best guy in the game is in the best clan in the game and you're surprised by this?
So the #2 clan just makes 6 guys with counters to his strat and farms him till they are blue in the face. They all get full clan points for every win, and they get the largest challenge bonus because you can't fight anyone larger than him, he's #1.
Sweet part about CB if he's number one you can go to the top abilities pages and see most of his entire lineup so it should be a calculator/paper/pencil and 45 minutes away from free points.
"The reason people strive to get the top tatoo or the top MPR or whatever is because it is tracked and saved somewhere that other people can look at, that's the motivation. With your clan ranking system that resets itself constantly it takes away that drive. What you really need is a more stable point system with a hall of champions place for people to see who the best are. Then you'll get your clan fighting that you're striving to build."
October 27 2009 4:46 PM EDT
I'm saying that I am not at all surprised. What I wanted to say is the following:
Every 0.1% counts for the big people.
Also you say other people to make their strat counter his. Nice but then someone else makes a strat countering theirs. Bingo, that player gains 6 times as many clan points effortless. ^_^ (in other words, clearly not a solution)
October 27 2009 4:48 PM EDT
Clan standings 1 year
Clan standings eternity
(for laughs, check page 10 of eternity stats)
October 27 2009 4:54 PM EDT
You're never going to get a solution that keeps the top guy from staying in the top guild, unless a group of players bands together with the goal of beating him. He's obviously currently the best CB player in the game and trying to change the rules from an admin standpoint to take him down is not the answer at all.
If you really want to just have fewer clans get points and see what it will do then go for it, 90% of the clans out there are inactives anyways, and if you're currently not in a clan getting a bonus, then you won't be after the change either.
I'm in a 3 person clan and just nearing 1 mil points and my clan can maintain 10-12%, which is also a bit silly in my mind, but the way you have the lowest clans competing in the same bracket as the top clans, that's how it'll be.
I suppose you could bracket the clans based on what realm they are in and you can only invite people to your clan from your same realm. And then stack the bonuses based of the realm.
Shire for instance can probably have a 35-40% max since they are already getting the 432% nub bonus.
Rivendell drop it to the 15% it currently is.
10% and then 5% for the last two. If even 0.1% makes a difference at that level then i don't know why you're awarding 15% to anyone, 5% would even be too much.
October 27 2009 4:55 PM EDT
Oh and I hadn't found those sites before dudemus, good to know they exsist, and I guess the only thing i can say for lack of competition is that there really is a lack of competition, wtb larger player base.
October 27 2009 7:28 PM EDT
FULL REVAMP SOLUTION:
1. Assign the clan bonus a WEEKLY score basis, as opposed to DAILY score basis. Also, remove the "Sunday no clan stuff" limits.
This will stop clan standings from going all over the place all the time and provides fiercer inter-top-clan competition because that's where the juicy stuff will come from.
2. EVER SO SLIGHTLY change the rules for the clans that qualify for bonuses and figure into the bonus slope.
INSTEAD of taking into account all "non-NULL score" clans, only take into consideration "strictly positive score" clans.
This will make it so that
3. ADJUST the score bonus/penalty for "too high" and "very low" MPR to +5% (half bonus) and -20% (double penalty).
This will make scores slightly more dynamic.
4. Heavily increase the TOP clan bonus.
First place gets at most 33%, Second place gets at most 25%, Third place gets at most 20%, after that the curve follows a similar slope to the current one (with the amendment from point 2) at the current 15% (at most), but for the fourth clan.
This will make sure there's a GOOD reason to want to be in the top clans.
5. EXTRA FEATURE : members of the top two clans get a super-special "BA regeneration rate push" - if they're at 7/20, as long as their clan is top clan, they fight at 6/20, and if they are already at 6/20, they get the unique 5/20 rate that never existed before.
This also handicaps them additionally, so they need a serious sustained effort to keep ahead of clans in 3rd or lower places.
It MIGHT lead to periodic quick rotations between the top three or even four clans, depending on when people choose to burn their BA (burn early, have nothing to burn at the better bonuses - burn late, and never get a chance to get the bonuses).
All in all, I'd say that should shake up the place good.
October 27 2009 7:32 PM EDT
Yeah it would shake it up I'd say. Everyone would hate it instantly. As soon as one guild of 6-8 strong players decided to band together and take the top spot forever, which arguable has already happened, there would be no way at all for them to be caught. 33% bonus plus more BA than thier opponents, GG.
October 27 2009 7:32 PM EDT
at point 2 I accidentally deleted a part.
It should read:
"This will make it so that inactive or idle clans are no longer relevant in any significant way, so we can even drop the auto-disband feature completely".
October 27 2009 7:32 PM EDT
gosh i can't spell tonight, done with posts till tomorrow
October 27 2009 7:35 PM EDT
doesn't he mean they get less BA though?
October 27 2009 7:42 PM EDT
"Yeah it would shake it up I'd say. Everyone would hate it instantly. As soon as one guild of 6-8 strong players decided to band together and take the top spot forever, which arguable has already happened, there would be no way at all for them to be caught. 33% bonus plus more BA than their opponents, GG."
Let's say it's really 6 of them somehow managing to enter in a single clan (by maybe starting together NCBs?).
They would struggle against a 5/20 BA rate first (at most 480 BA per day even with full purchase), and against a -20% score penalty, for a grand total of at most +13824 effective positive score in a day.
On the flip side, even if they only get 4 other attackers at 6/20 rates that farm them, that's up to -9216 clan points (-7373 adjusted), leaving them at a measly 6451 overall score.
I don't know about you, but that score would right now put them in the SIXTH place, not the first.
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