Why the Drop System can't work. (in General)
Bar the handful of people that might actually lke the system currently, the majority of CBers don't.
For various reasons. Ignoring the mechanics for a minute, a Randon reward doesn't sit well with CBs design, but I understand the reason this system was implemnted.
The 'rush' feeling. The draw to keep fighting, just for another drop.
But mechanically, that doesn't work currently, and can't work with the current design.
First, the pool of items is too small. And most of those are made up of 'worthless' drops, that people feel cheated out of getting. Remove those from the pool, and it just gets even smaller.
Secondly, the rate of the drops. It's too low. The system wasn't put into place to generate extra items, and it doesn't anyway. The current rate of 'rare' spanws is too low for that 'rush'. Camping was different, as Camping was (dare I claim) an activity for a minority of CBers. There were enough spawns to go round.
The Drop system is open to everyone (bar forgers, who don't count! :P), which further dilutes the rate at which we get the 'rush' of a drop.
I've recently started fighting again, and even though 've fought a mediocre 15K odd battles over a little over a month, I've yet to see a drop.
It's so negligable on my gameplay of CB, I've started to forget we even *have* a drop system.
In order for the Drop system to generate enough of the 'wow' factor, we need to do two things. cull the useless rares that drop form it, and increase the drop rate.
Which breaks the economy of CB even more than keeping rewards as they were prior to the Drop systems activation.
We can't let more rares spawn, so this will remain a random, too infequent 'feature' to be of much use to any CBer. Be they estblished Vets, with all the gear they need, or brand new players who are trying to purchase specific items to flesh out their strats.
I was wrong about the fight feed, I happily admit that. But I can't see myelf being wrong about this.
The Drop system is a mechanic that doesn't mesh with the rest of CB, and doesn't really offer any gameplay benefit to any CBer.
What we would need to do to make this an attractive system, would be to cull all the dross items, and make CB revolve around items more than it currently does. More rares, all with unique reasons to exist and be used, all of interest and worth to many teams and builds.
But that would massively change CB as a whole.
Unless there is something I'm missing (like the fight feed), I don't think we can implement (or should...) enough of a change to CB to make the Drop System attractive.
Could we please remove it, and consider something else in it's place?
November 27 2009 10:08 AM EST
The only reason I could ever see to keep it is as a prize given that the 20% drop in rewards was already planned.
However, nothing in Jon's changelog suggested anything other than a direct relationship between rewards getting nerfed and this drop system.
Again, get rid of it, now!
Ugh, drop system.
When it first came out, I thought it would make me want to fight more. At first, it did. I was anxiously awaiting my drops and fighting every BA. To me, this was enough to justify the system.
However, I have received so few of the drops that I now find myself forgetting they exist, like GL. I don't care much about the 20% reduction in rewards if it was coming anyway, but now 50% of all worthwhile items that spawn are attributed to random people by chance instead of being shared through the market. Killing a significant part of the auction economy is not worth the "rush" the drop system is supposed to deliver, in my opinion.
"Bar the handful of people that might actually lke the system currently, the majority of CBers don't."
November 27 2009 4:25 PM EST
seems like a good subject for a poll....
Though it would have to clarify whether or not the 20% cash rewards were 'coming back' in lieu
November 27 2009 4:26 PM EST
oh, and it would have to have a 'don't really care' option....
... ya know, for those of us who really don't care
Just have a poll with "Do you like the drop system?" and the two choices be yes or no. Then most of us can go ahead and put no.
November 27 2009 4:59 PM EST
As much as I hate the 20% income reduction, when it comes to the drop system, one can not say it doesn't work since drops does happens.
We simply need to be told by management if that 20% reduction was direct relation or not(like this as not been said already).
This all seems to me like you guys expect way too much, like expecting a good and deep story while watching transformer movie.
Of course if the 20% reduction is a direct link I retract my previous statement but beside the reduction there is nothing wrong with a few free items per year.
LoL Dude, I really don't think Daa, or a Poll is needed here.
I'm sure we oculd count the number of supports of the drop system on the fingers of one hand. ;)
Mess, Jon stated the 20% drop was becuase of the drop system.
November 27 2009 6:30 PM EST
Then by all means I am against the drop system and would really love my 20% reduction reinstate.
Also getting rid of the drop system would mean more item gets to spawn in the auction and thats a real good thing.
Dude, in your mind, what do you think the purpose of the Drop System is? What's it's draw?
If it's the 'rush' of getting a drop, I think the design currently fails for reasons given in the OP.
Is it something else?
if you want to sway the developers, differentiating between an actual majority and a vocal minority should go a long way. i truly do not know how everyone feels. i do know how about a dozen vocal members feel though.
if you are asking for my input, i would like to see the non rares removed from the pool and one of the following:
all of the rares are now drops
give us half of our cash rewards back that were taken away
November 27 2009 7:10 PM EST
My 2 cents:
CB seems like a very calculated game. EVERYTHING follows a calculation. In so many days, I'll make approximately X CB$ and I can buy TGs +X which will give me X% more STR and I'll have high enough NW cap to wear my uber ELS. In so many days, I'll gain approximately X exp which will mean I will have X/(12*5) more DEX and I will most likely be able to kill character X.
The variations in exp and cb$ are slight and can still be calculated by an average. Even the possibly most random aspect of CB, accuracy in combat, can still be manipulated by the player by adding dex or PTH.
A once-in-a-blue-moon rare drop system just doesn't seem to fit in.
November 27 2009 7:22 PM EST
"A once-in-a-blue-moon rare drop system just doesn't seem to fit in. "
This and all the other points in rr's thread is exactly what myself, Sut and plenty of others have been typing for over 8 months now.
November 27 2009 7:26 PM EST
The drop system is the only reason I still play CB.
"if you are asking for my input, i would like to see the non rares removed from the pool and one of the following:
all of the rares are now drops"
You mean the 'worthless' rares removed? No none 'rare' is part of the drop system.
If you got rid of all the junk, and took al the actually useful stuff out of the AH and put into the Drop System, I fel we still wouldn't have enough 'drops' to actually give the system any impact.
Why is it in place? That's the major question.
The only answer can think of it the 'rush' from geting a drop.
But the drops are far too infrequent for that. And CB just doesn't have enough wanted Rares to make it work.
Unless we ruin the economy by introducing a massive amount of them (or upping the spawn rate).
Especially as most of the really wanted 'rare' are special items, that aren't part of the drop system anyway.
Put TSA/MoD/AoI et all into the drop system, and I think you'll see a lot more interest in it.
But that would destroy the 'Special item' shop, and whatever revenue it provides.
November 27 2009 8:25 PM EST
"This and all the other points in rr's thread is exactly what myself, Sut and plenty of others have been typing for over 8 months now."
It's been over 8 months since June 3rd?
yes remove useless rares from the drop tables.
only game forums on the interweb can pack 8 plus months of complaining into under half a year! ; )
i think the thrill of camping is exactly what brought the change and quite possibly a desire to remove some liquid cash from the game.
has it worked? our numbers were steadily declining up to the change and have stayed fairly stable since. i am not sure if we haven't just bottomed out population wise though.
when the change first came out i stated we need more data. i don't see anything that would lead jon to change it. while we have had a vocal opposition, that hasn't translated to people leaving it seems and as i stated above, the numbers have stabilized.
if it changes back, i won't be too upset either. this isn't a game-breaker for me one way or the other. it has added some new challenges to running an ncb though but i actually like challenges.
How about a wacky idea to change/improve the drop system?
***Make it a ticket system. Instead of getting rare drops, you get ticket drops. I agree the drop rate is too low- so make it 10, maybe 20, times higher than it is now. Then let those tickets be usable in the black market- you get enough tickets to equal the number of total votes it would take- you 'buy' the item of your choice. No more useless rares. No more rares that you don't even want. Just farm tickets!
"The 'rush' feeling. The draw to keep fighting, just for another drop.
But mechanically, that doesn't work currently, and can't work with the current design."
just to be clear, you are saying here that i do not feel that rush when i get a good rare or that no one does? are you just stating that it doesn't work for you personally?
actually i see the current drop system almost exactly the way i saw camping. you would check a store and see a rare (first rush) only to frantically try to select it and find the "buy" button whereupon you would either get the item "second" rush or the dreaded message that it had already been purchased by another player!
now we get the rare message (first rush) and then that is followed immediately by the determination of a good rare (second rush) or a crap drop disappointment! ; )
November 27 2009 10:59 PM EST
Everyone loses 20% of rewards, it seems like it'd happen regardless, what is the issue? Wow, random, so what? Can't we all just get over it? NO ONE would be complaining if Jon just said "Everyone loses 20% of their rewards, sucked in". They'd accept it. But because something got introduced it gives a massive path of complaining and whinging to go down?
i just realized an added benefit of this system. besides encouraging use of all of your ba, it is yet another reason to train people to maximize their win percentages. i admit they don't really need another reason, but cannot say how many times i have looked at people complaining of not getting drops to see just horrible win ratios.
Okay I still like my token drop change idea, but yeah, the name is bad.
Here we go: Valar's Blessings: a random drop that happens approximately 20 times (could be higher or lower) more often than a common rare drop in the current system. These Blessings would be used in the Black Market, henceforward known as the Rewards Store. Use enough Blessings and you can trade it in for a new ELS or something.
This change idea could also open up other options down the road as well. How about a reward option for 20% increased cash for 3 days for 300 tickets? Or 20% more xp for 3 days for 1000 tickets?
But basically, this system would be a vast improvement to the random junk drop system! You get to decide what you want to save up and get! You get more 'drops' and much more regularly, so hopefully people won't complain about getting nothing for months at a time. People would get back that feeling of control that it feels like they lost with the rare drop system! No more Elven Stilettos (unless that floats your boat)!
Oh, and if the name still stinks, more ideas: Valar's Favors, Assassination Tokens, Combat Medallions, War Spoils, Blending Medals, Combat Insignia, Jon's Gifts.
"just to be clear, you are saying here that i do not feel that rush when i get a good rare or that no one does? are you just stating that it doesn't work for you personally?"
Personally? No. But then I'm not a good example to base anything on. Not really fighting that much since the system was introduced.
But I can be an example. Over 15K fights and no drop. What's the maximum number of fights per day? About 1K? So really, two weeks for a top performer with no drop.
I'm going out on a limb to say that due to;
1) The number of useless Rares in the system
2) The infrequent nature of it
The System *can't* provide the 'rush' feeling. Sure, you're going to go "WooT!" when you get that Corn. Everyone would. You've just won the CB lottery.
But. For the System's purpose. To get you to spend more BA (than you usually would anyway), to draw you into CB by building expectation of that next Drop. I'm supporting it doesn't exist currently, for those two reasons above. And we *can't* change those two to make the Drop System actually enticing.
Look at the other Drop System thread. Is one drop a month, of total BA spending / 100% Win rates, really enough to get people to actually care about it?
(As for camping, as you mention above, some of the 'rush' was competing with other players for that drop. Spying the Rare in the Store, and beating someone else to it! There's no competition with the Drop System, it loses that portion of the excitement)
There was an old Poll already, where about 33% of people wanted it to stay in it's current form.
But some of those results were pure schadenfreuder, liking the Drop System *only* becuase others didn't.
And that can't be a good reson to keep it either...
And all this ignores the Random nature of it not meshing with the rest of CBs design. If we're gettign Random rewards back, why not Random fights? FoD was removed for a reason.
here is the poll you speak of gl:
what i get out of that poll is that 64 percent want to keep the drop system in some form, albeit with changes. that is why i asked for data to support your first point. the only data i have seen, barring anecdotal vocal minority screaming in the forums, says that the majority does support it.
as for a poll that only asks whether to keep it or kill it, that wouldn't give valid data as that is not our only options. the best poll would likely just offer four choices:
revert back to the way it was
keep the drop system as is
keep it with changes (list your suggestions below)
i include the mushu option as one person in this thread already stated that they could care less.
the tides may very well have changed and more people may be against the drop system currently, until we have a new poll though any statement of community support is only supported by the previous poll data as that is all we have.
as for people being for the vote system just because someone else is against it, if i understood that correctly, seems a bit paranoid. with a split of 36 against and 64 for, are you really suggesting that a substantial portion of that is people just going against someone they dislike and even if that did happen, wouldn't it likely happen for both sides of any debate and likely cancel each others votes out? unless you feel that one side is the noble and honorable side and thus no one from that viewpoint could ever stoop so low? please elaborate on this one!
the argument that one element of the game has some random factor introduced to it and thus the rest of the game has to go that way is pretty darned misleading as well. there was randomness in camping spawns no? there was randomness to when the items would appear in the auction house as well. this part of the game has always had a random factor and we have never declared the rest of the game had to be totally random before, why now?
"if i understood that correctly, seems a bit paranoid."
Novice and Basts comments in the Poll, for one (or rather two!) off the top of my head. ;)
But by all means, ask for another poll. I'm sure we'll find sentiment has changed.
The drop system just doesn't have enough of an impact.
As for Randomness in CB, yeah, there's varience for rewards and damage done.
But once camping was removed (And it's been gone a while), even though Rare spawns are random (ish), the ownership of them wasn't.
They might appear in the AH at random times, but there are there for a set duration, the whole of CB can bid on.
Now, we have a lottery for post fight rewards.
And it's one reason the 20% can't be lowered. All the money from Rare spawns used to be removed from curculation, but going to Central Bank (or wherever the Auctioneer's money goes to).
Now, if the drops are put back into the AH, this money is instead going to another player, and isn't removed from the game.
Because of this, we are *all* funding this, as it's our fight rewards that are being removed from the game.
If the 20% is accurate (and I've no reaosn to doubt it is) we can't just decrease this (as people in the old poll want), as that will lead to les money being removed from the game.
So for all those people who want to keep the drop system, but we changes, they're outta luck.
We can't change the drop rate.
We can't change the amount of rewards removed.
So maybe we should poll those again, and ask them if they'd rather keep the drop system as is, or get rid of it.
I think they're our only two choices really.
(heh, that spun out from the FoD point I was going to make!)
There are actually two changes we could ask for.
A reduction in the redward decrease now Lesser were removed form the pool.
And as you've sugested, moving all Rare spawns into the drop pool. But this would necessitate us losing *more* cash rewards, to make up for the loss of Auctioneer cash being removed form the game, as explained above.
I really don't think anyone in CB would agree to all the rares dropping, if we move to a 40% cash reduction...
Which is what we'd have to do.
(The 20% figure can be changed, if Jon oriignally miscounted, but I've no reason to belive he did)
November 28 2009 10:28 AM EST
After having never received a drop, and seeing others with over ten drops...
The drop system is the only reason I do not play CB anymore. That and the pesky game of RL. But, I will be hard pressed to come back to CB in a few months if the drop system is still in place.
I understand it was never meant to be "fair"... but when I was fighting full-time for months, I never received a drop. While others received many. Why should I suffer for someone elses fortune?
November 28 2009 10:56 AM EST
The drop system was likely an attempt to do "something" during a changemonth in which nothing else was done.
A very poor attempt to try to make CB "exiting".
Not every hit is a home run. Let this one die.
"If the 20% is accurate (and I've no reaosn to doubt it is)"
but based off of what? if it was based off of the current market price when the change was made, the change itself has driven market price down for many items due to the decrease in liquid cash.
ns said the number wasn't arbitrary, but has never answered how it was obtained. if i recall correctly he just said that the 20 percent was the value of half of the drops. the only fixed value in the game is net worth though and i am fairly sure that wasn't used. ; )
I'm guessing Jon and NS looked at how much income the Auctioneer gains from Rare sales, compared that to incoming cash from fight rewards and worked out that losing 50% of the Rare incoming income would equate to 20% of fight based rewards.
Of this, I think we've got no reason to distrust Jon/NS here.
There is a small case that the 20% reduction should no be lessened after lesser tattoo's were removed.
But then again they don't spawn through the AH either any more.
"I'm guessing Jon and NS looked at how much income the Auctioneer gains from Rare sales, compared that to incoming cash from fight rewards and worked out that losing 50% of the Rare incoming income would equate to 20% of fight based rewards."
that is shooting at a moving target though, which is my point as the value at that time might have been 20% but with the reduction in liquid assets brought about by the change the 20% is no longer valid and might be only 5% at today's values.
i do not distrust them, but would like to verify how it was figured for that reason and if it will be subject to periodic recalibration.
That doesn't matter mate. Change becuase of the introduction doesn't need to be accounted for.
If the drop system was removed, the assumption would be that it would revert to pre drop anyway.
Making it the correct figure to use if the Drop system was reinstated. ;)
As an aside, having the system need periodic recalibration (which i doesn't!) would be just another reason to kill it.
to be clear, this is the moving target:
"I'm guessing Jon and NS looked at how much income the Auctioneer gains from Rare sales"
you statement makes it seem that this is a constant figure but i do not see how it could be at all. this number would fluctuate due to many factors such as liquid assets, mr. chairman intervention and player population especially in regards to new players.
you would likely have to use some type of average, unless the numbers are much more constant than i suspect which i would like to have clarified. if it is that black and white then you are right and we cannot adjust without changing the economy, i just need convincing that there isn't some room for play in the 20 percent figure.
November 28 2009 3:47 PM EST
Since prices are based off demand, the more demand, the higher the prices. And demand can basically be equated to how much CB is out there, since we all want items, how much we are willing to pay depends on how much money we have. So if you look at it that way then using 20% of our income = 50% of what was getting sold might be pretty close to staying at least at a constant ratio if not a constant value.
We have a couple of low fight weeks and the average person doesn't make much money, therefore nobody is willing to bid up and the market sales is down.
We have a couple of hight fight weeks and everyone is rolling in the cash and everyone bids up items because they are all willing to pay more money if they have more money lying around.
Either case, the money they spent at the AH was roughly the same percent of the total income of the game.
November 30 2009 8:49 AM EST
I don't think I agree with the premise that drops need to be frequent to be a good part of the game.
I do think we can come up with something to shift the "not really rares" to new players.
November 30 2009 8:52 AM EST
Any change will help. What do you think of tweaking it so that a small amount of cash can drop like items?
November 30 2009 8:59 AM EST
"I don't think I agree with the premise that drops need to be frequent to be a good part of the game."
If you played the game, you would see that the infrequency of the drops add nothing to the game. Sort of like classic conditioning. There has to be a certain frequency where the conditioning works. The current system lacks this. I would think that all the posts about how this system is not good would have shown that.
"I do think we can come up with something to shift the "not really rares" to new players. "
Why? They still stink. Moving more ES or katanas to new players will add nothing to the game. By the 2nd week, they will already have enough money for a top 5/6 weapon and be using one. By the 2nd week they will be the same "gee another sucky weapon that I do not need anymore". Such is the power of the NUB.
Perhaps if we knew why this system was in place, and still is in place, we would lend a more coherent discussion as to why is still stinks.
"I don't think I agree with the premise that drops need to be frequent to be a good part of the game."
It depends what part it should play.
If it's intended to be a lure or hook to get people to spend more BA, then the drops need to be frequent enough that people don't just forget about the incentive. And currently, that's not the case.
If it's intended to be a once in a blue moon bonus, then it shouldn't be *random*. It's no fun when your once in a blue moon bonus hasn't come yet, while your clan mate/rival has had 4 or 5 already.
As Ranger asks, what's the intention of the Drop System?
And if we remove all the 'lesser' Rares from it, would there be enough items in the pool to have any sort of meaningful drop rate?
If we add the rest of the 'wanted' Rares to the drop pool, how much more cash will we have to lose form rewards to balance the loss of income from the Auctioneer?
November 30 2009 9:15 AM EST
dudemus, at one point (in previous threads) in back and forth discussions I used the word "apologist" to describe someone...you, I think. You let me know that you thought using that type of language was divisive and unnecessary, and I agreed.
If that is the case, though, what does that say for words like "paranoid" and "misleading"? If that is what you think of the voice of dissent on this topic, then I guess I can go back to using the word "apologist" for supporters of the in-place drop system and reasons behind it? Because GL is not paranoid (I don't even see how that word applies), and calling someone's action "misleading" is a definite slight (and again, doesn't even make sense -- what would GL, or anyone, hope to gain by "misleading" the thoughts of others on this topic?)
there is a difference between calling someone a name and saying their argument is misleading or a statement is paranoid. gl and i have had enough discourse for that to be understood i suspect, but if i am wrong let me be the apologist! ; )
i did come to an understanding on this issue though. you guys likely feel the same about it that i feel about the economy and transfers. i feel that transfers serve no purpose in the game but to allow people to bypass hard work and buy their way to the top.
i do still trust jon's vision though and will support his decisions in both matters after all it is his playpen that he allows us to have fun in.
since the drop system is no big deal for me, good luck to everyone involved in getting a system hammered out that we can all live with!
November 30 2009 9:51 AM EST
Yes, there is a difference, but even had I used the language, "You're just apologizing for a broken system," I am thinking you would have CM'd me and called me out (appropriately) for casting such aspersions. I know you and GL are getting along fine, I was simply jarred by seeing the words "paranoid" and "misleading" on an otherwise on-topic, non-confrontational thread. One, because they are strong words, and two, because they actually don't make much sense in their context. If GL is being paranoid, then anyone who dissents about anything is paranoid, and if some of his points just didn't make logical sense to you, a gentler (and probably more to the point) word to use there might be "inconsistent" or "incongruous". I'm truly not trying to be a pedant, but the word "misleading" denotes intent to deceive, and I am certain there was nothing of the kind in GL's original statement or any subsequent post.
I also mostly trust Jonathan's vision. But this is the first time I have seen him post on the matter (other than the original Changelog post and later tweak, neither of which revealed any sort of global vision or reasoning behind the change). And no, we aren't entitled to word from Jonathan any more than he is entitled to have us not complain. However, it is difficult to discern a vision if the viewed vistas are rarely (or never) shared. In fact, we still do not know if the drop system was actually meant to reduce cash by 20%, or, if so, the reasoning behind that.
I'm 100% sure the 20% cash decrease was to compensate for the lack of cash coming back into the Auctioneer, from Rares moved from him selling them, to us selling them. ;)
November 30 2009 10:02 AM EST
I don't think the drop system needs to be removed, but it does need to be revamped. I would love to see it used as a vehicle for delivering unique items, like annual CB T-shirts (guaranteed to drop by the time you've fought 100k battles) and non-transferable, non-upgradable uniques (that will be lost when you dispose of your character). Adding relatively small cash drops or BA drops (Varda blesses you with 10 more BA) can also be more frequent spices to the game.
But I do agree that going two months and getting a crappy rare isn't doing much to hold attention. I love the concept, just not the implementation.
Demi, anything that removes the randomness is FTW! ;)
I like the sound of (it's like an extension of the new user goals) having fixed rewards for numbers of fights. ;)
That's an incentive that people can fight towards, track, and anticipate. ;)
November 30 2009 10:21 AM EST
I'm curious as to what Jon/NS think of my suggestions, but I know they rarely respond to players' ideas.
November 30 2009 10:39 AM EST
Demigod, I like the idea of drops that aren't item based, but would not support cash drops. All cash drops would represent (IMO) would be a direct step-wising of cash. Reduce rewards 20% and then give it back in chunks? That seems somewhat pointless...
...then again, I already find the drop system pointless, and a small wad of cash would definitely beat a katana.
November 30 2009 10:55 AM EST
Sometimes blindly following someone into the valley of death is a bad idea.
I think this game would do much better, IE gain more people, if we, the players, had some insight as to why things are as they are.
I would love to see the drops be unique, non transferrable items, however, in a game like this we need to have a set known reward structure.
As long as he random, non transferable, unique drops, were only vanity drops. And not gameplay effecting.
I'd hate for CB to change to a "ZOMG! I got the uber rare IWIN drop, no one can beat me now..." type of game some gear focused 'strategy' games become.
Where if you get that one uber legendary artifact, no one can compaete with you unless they also have similar.
November 30 2009 2:50 PM EST
Certainly not game changing drops.
But drops like CB T shirts  (+1) etc.. or other T shirt type drops.
This thread is closed to new posts.
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<a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002w9N">Why the Drop System can't work.</a>