Anti RoBF Strategy (in General)


Newlin [SeeD] March 3 2010 10:12 PM EST

Just something I thought of the other night to counter strategies centered around the RoBF. There is probably a reason or two why this won't work, but who cares.

Minion 1
---------

Base AS
MAX SG

Large RoS.
Basic mage equipment using an AoJ and probably a corn.

Minion 2
---------

TSA, PL, High AC Wall

Newlin [SeeD] March 3 2010 10:13 PM EST

actually switch the minion order.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] March 3 2010 10:14 PM EST

The RoBF would have as much HP and AMF as your team ;).

Areodjarekput March 3 2010 10:17 PM EST

AoJ with no familiar?

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] March 3 2010 10:28 PM EST

Probably meant AoAC.

miteke [Superheros] March 3 2010 10:34 PM EST

He meant AoF so that the AS would get bonuses. Not sure if the RoS AS gets bonuses from the Corn though. Does it?

Pwned March 3 2010 10:50 PM EST

You know what? Now that I'm getting farmed by a RoBF user half my MPR and Nw I think the RoBF is O/P.

Ranger was right! :(

Wraithlin March 3 2010 11:07 PM EST

Minion #1: High AC

Somewhere in the lineup: HP/TSA wall

Commence RoBF farming.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] March 3 2010 11:14 PM EST

Corn wouldn't give any bonus and AoF would hurt you more than help since their already ridiculous AMF would be super boosted to new heights ;).

Newlin [SeeD] March 4 2010 8:12 AM EST

Ya I meant AoF. No idea why I screwed that up.

Mythology March 4 2010 8:53 AM EST

IntoExile, its my EC that wipes away your 2nd minion that calls the battle, not the RoBF :P

QBRanger March 4 2010 8:58 AM EST

The only way to defeat most RBF characters is to have a massive damage source.

As the RBF lends itself to a very defensive setup.

ScY March 4 2010 9:15 AM EST

Va also helps.

Solare March 4 2010 9:19 AM EST

If you're looking for anti-RoBF, look at Ranger's setup.

QBRanger March 4 2010 11:11 AM EST

Yes,

My strategy works very well if you have enough CB to make a 320+M NW ELB.

For those in the real game of CB, the RBF is very hard to crack. One needs a massive damage source such as SG/EF or a huge weapon.

Given most RBF setups are very specialized on defense. Using a massive PL/TSA/revive minion somewhere on the character.

And if they use the exbow on top of that, tanks have a hard time unless they also have 100M spare CB for huge DBs.

There is a reason the RBF is now becoming the most popular tattoo.

QBRanger March 4 2010 11:16 AM EST

Minion #1: High AC
Somewhere in the lineup: HP/TSA wall
Commence RoBF farming.


Um, where are you going to do enough damage to break through the RBFs defenses.

As a RBF does not have to spend any xp on offensive skills/stats/spells, it can fully be a defensive setup.

Your suggestion is great for a possible stalemate, but please tell me where you get enough firepower to kill the RBF user. Perhaps using an EF but even then if the RBF user has a nice sized AMF, who knows?

Newlin [SeeD] March 4 2010 11:46 AM EST

Ya, looking back it doesn't look like it will deal a sizeable amount of damage. It would be nice though to have an anti robf strategy without pumping millions into a weapon.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 4 2010 12:24 PM EST

Step 1: Make something target RoBF minions
Step 2: Make walls undispellable, but lower the max effective reduction for balance
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 12:53 PM EST

With a high AC wall backed by PL, you don't need large damage to outdamage the pitiful amount a RoBF will be putting out.

If they *also* have a large AC minion backed by PL, I'd suggest a combination of Decay and SG.

QBRanger March 4 2010 1:11 PM EST

With a high AC wall backed by PL, you don't need large damage to outdamage the pitiful amount a RoBF will be putting out.

Can you find me one character using this strategy, even with decay and SG, that is beating RBF characters that have a higher MPR?

BTW, decay is near useless vs the RBF due to the AMF usage on RBF characters. There may be a few DM/RBF characters but I really see no reason for that other then to try to nuke their SS. In which case a lower DM and higher AMF should work wonderfully.

QBRanger March 4 2010 1:13 PM EST

Step 1: Make something target RoBF minions

That does not really stop the PL/TSA/revive minion from taking the damage.

Step 2: Make walls undispellable, but lower the max effective reduction for balance

Not sure what you mean by undispellable

Step 3: ???

I gots no idea about this one.

Step 4: Profit!

Profit from what and how?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 1:17 PM EST

Step 1: Make something target RoBF minions


soc, SoC, SOC! ; )

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 1:49 PM EST

Can you find me one character using this strategy


Not going to bother.

Even if there isn't, doesn't change it's prowess. Just shows no one is using it.

Maybe it's fodder to something else more prevalent in the game, like Massive ELBows or the like.

/shrug

Large AC stops the RoBF cold.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 1:56 PM EST

Just stumbled across Conquerer Okay;

http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=128754

Beats King of Pain. A larger RoBF team.

Front minion has massive (403) AC, and Shocking Grasp.

That satisfy you?

QBRanger March 4 2010 2:05 PM EST

That satisfy you?

One RBF character beating another? Not even close to satisfying me.

Find me a character with a lower MPR that uses the AC/TSA combo to beat a higher RBF character. That does not use a RBF itself.

You cannot, because it is not possible if the RBF character plays with basic good strategy.

The RBF is that powerful.

Maybe it's fodder to something else more prevalent in the game, like Massive ELBows or the like.

Yes, if all it takes is a 320M NW ELB to beat a RBF, that is certainly balanced, not!

QBRanger March 4 2010 2:08 PM EST

I also suspect the SG on Conqueror is base to draw the Mageseekers.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 4 2010 2:12 PM EST

The reason nobody really uses walls anymore is because DM makes them fairly useless.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 2:12 PM EST

Blightning versus the Iconics?

If only CB had a Max AC stat...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 2:16 PM EST

Principle versus Failure?

swaggpy March 4 2010 3:06 PM EST

mostly it is because 16m+ worth HP with 403 AC shouldn't be defeated that easily. Also most RoBF teams with large PL minions are gaining 300k HP per round, it can add over 10m + HP to a PL minion in a fight!

QBRanger March 4 2010 3:08 PM EST

Blightning versus the Iconics?

I can give you that one. They are fairly close in MPR though. But the EF is about the only way other than the massive NW elb to penetrate the RBF.
Principle versus Failure?

Failure is not a real dedicated RBF strategy. It is a hybrid. Also, his RBF is not that high, only the 16th highest RBF in the game.

I wonder if he had an appropriate level RBF for his MPR if Principle would win. Perhaps due to Failures tank. If Failure dropped his weapons, I wonder who would win then. A case of a weapon actually hurting a character more than helping in this case I suspect.

But in any event, the best way to best a RBF is higher MPR with either a 200+M NW weapon or a large EF/SG.

But even FTW cannot beat Blightning.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 3:10 PM EST

i asked this in another thread, perhaps gl will see it here though as the other thread is buried!
gl, are you okay with the robf becoming the de facto tat for cb and it coming down to a "the biggest robf wins" game?

swaggpy March 4 2010 3:13 PM EST

definitely not the biggest RoBF tat wins, LA can beat pretty much every RoBF team in the game and he doesn't have anywhere near the largest tattoo. over 4m level difference.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 3:14 PM EST

No, of course not.

But don't think that's happening. And if it is, it's more because of GA than the Tattoo itself.

And mybe if there weremore teams with a minion with over 200 AC (and not so large a weapon), we'd see less overall RoBFs as well.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 4 2010 3:34 PM EST

What will happen if people get too RoBF centric is that no one will beat any of each other. BTW some good ways of getting through RoBF users are MoD, VB, SG, and of course just massive damage.

QBRanger March 4 2010 4:03 PM EST

I also did not see or forgot FTW is a RBF user as well.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 4 2010 4:07 PM EST

I certainly wish the VB was still a viable option, but it's a joke nowadays. DM is strictly superior. I can see the VB being very worthwhile if it cut through 100% of all armor.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 4:20 PM EST

When AC got reduced, and shifted over to SS, the VB should have been rebalanced.

At least it still cuts through the ToE. ;)

QBRanger March 4 2010 4:57 PM EST

What will happen if people get too RoBF centric is that no one will beat any of each other.

Not really.

With 50 rounds of battle now, it seems the highest RBF and/or highest AC will win. With minimal regards to real strategy. There may be a few stalemates, but who cares as long as everyone is using the item de jour.

Slap on a RBF, slap on some AC, slap on a TSA on a PL/HP/revive minion and fight away.

Without regards for lower MPR people ever beating you.

Seems like a Win/Win for RBF users everywhere.

Wraithlin March 4 2010 5:01 PM EST

Run the exact same setup except with an electic familiar in the RoBF slot and you will beat all RoBF users.

Sounds like open season on RoBF users actually.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 5:01 PM EST

And mybe if there weremore teams with a minion with over 200 AC (and not so large a weapon), we'd see less overall RoBFs as well.


i have over 200 ac on my lead minion and much lower robf have farmed me all the way up.

you say that you do not think that the robf is becoming the de facto tat for the game but the numbers tell a different story. i was in the pro robf camp and used one for quite some time, mostly pre-nerf. at that time i didn't think it was overpowered.

when people predicted that cb would become robf-blender i doubted it as well. i started tracking the tat distribution when i thought the hal was becoming the de facto tat. what i saw, especially after the hal nerf was that the robf was, in my opinion, actually becoming the tat of choice.

you can explain the numbers however you like, ga is too strong etc... but the fact is that the robf is about twice as prevalent as the next two tats and makes up for about 27% of the tats in the most active 70 players. ga has been touted as too strong since the damage nerfs, yet we are just now seeing the mass exodus to the robf, how does that fit in with your theory?



Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 5:03 PM EST

sorry, i meant to post the link to the tat distribution table above:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhqtN8y13_DadEliSE9QWEpGS0VJZ2pDNzdjckl2M2c&hl=en

Wraithlin March 4 2010 5:03 PM EST

ga has been touted as too strong since the damage nerfs, yet we are just now seeing the mass exodus to the robf, how does that fit in with your theory?


perfectly. RoBF is the GA counter, so if GA is too powerful, more and more RoBFs will show up.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 5:04 PM EST

why has it taken so many months then?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 5:05 PM EST

i have over 200 ac on my lead minion and much lower robf have farmed me all the way up.


I was too conservative there then. ;)

Over 300 AC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 5:06 PM EST

why has it taken so many months then?


Becuase the other Tattoo's are just as strong. People were targetting non GA users. GA wasn't trained as much. More people are following the RoBF Bandwagon after the numerous hreads about it. Less people are using 300 AC setups.

No idea. Probably a combination of the above.

QBRanger March 4 2010 5:08 PM EST

You may think my ranting on the RBF is coming from a madman. Perhaps.

However, when someone like Dude states his opinion about it being OP, perhaps we should really look at things from an unbiased standpoint.

Dude has stated numerous facts about the RBF as has this thread. Which has not degenerated which is a festivus occasion indeed.

But there are more and more people going to the RBF. But with over 1/4th of all tattoos being this one in the top 70, one should be able to draw conclusions.

Much like the HF when people were looking at its usage numbers.

I may be alone in my thinking GA is not too powerful. There are plenty of ways around it, most involve DM or leeching HP in melee. But GA is good for the game. It stops people like myself and Z from slapping on a huge ELB and dominating the game. We actually have to spend xp on DM to avoid it. It gives people another method of damage with a chance of working.

If one wants to increase the cap from 2.5x to 4x that would be fine, but nothing more should be done with that skill.

Or maybe we need a new DD spell with leech ability. Like something called Life Leech. Lower damage, maybe towards MM in damage but leeches 20% of life like a MH and it only fires in melee rounds.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 5:09 PM EST

yet if i switch to an robf strat, then since i am near top 20 tat...? that is my concern with it, the counters are not as easy as switching to the tat du jour!

i am not asking for an robf nerf at this point, i would however like the soc, or a similar item to counter it. just to give others that aren't willing to switch to the robf themselves another method of mitigating its persistence and prevalence.

Wraithlin March 4 2010 5:11 PM EST

The problem is the lack of a huge pool of players. We have anywhere from 100-300 active players, (I know I went past 1-2 standard deviations with that range), so there is not alot of room for unique strats.

It's a very slow game of rock paper scissors with a player base this small, especially since you have different ranges of MPR compeition, at any given time you're only really competing against maybe 20-30 people at the most.

Due to this really small sample size, even without disruptions in play like the damage nerf caused, you will see a slow progression of the rock-paper-scissors game.

GA became really powerful vs damage when damage went down, so over the last few months, RoBF has shown up more and more, to now we are at over 25% of active users in the top using it.

I predict that the electric familiar will soon start gaining popularity as people slowly transition to something that can beat all the RoBF users out there and as the GA users decline.

Imagine playing the game with just 2 people. The other guy is beating you, but you know of a way to beat him, would you switch to it? Of course you would. Instead of 2 people, we have an average sample of 20-30 people competing, so the process is slower than that, but it still happens. The process is also slowed by the fact that it costs alot to retrain if it's not as simple as a Tat swap.

Get the player base up, you won't see nearly as much progression between strats as there currently is.

QBRanger March 4 2010 5:17 PM EST

Becuase the other Tattoo's are just as strong. People were targetting non GA users. GA wasn't trained as much. More people are following the RoBF Bandwagon after the numerous hreads about it. Less people are using 300 AC setups.

Point by point:

The other tattoos are no where as strong as the RBF. We can debate that ad nauseum and likely disagree.

GA has always been trained to the degree it is now. Nothing changed. But yes, with the damage reductions in the game, GA has become stronger in the sense the cap can not as easily be reached.

Of course more people are using the RBF after seeing the threads. They are not stupid. The RBF lets you maximize defense and essentially eliminates lower MPR characters from beating you. If I was wrong and the RBF was not so powerful, why are more and more people using it. Would they themselves have found it to be lacking and switched to another tattoo?

There has been less of an emphasis on AC once the AC nerf occurred. However, I have seen 300+ AC minions scattered throughout the game with slightly more frequency now. But I doubt someone will change from a RBF to another tattoo due to 300AC. You have to have a large amount of hp and TSA/PL/revive to back up the AC. Which takes MPR. Which makes the RBF perfect for not losing to those with less MPR.

And lastly to this fallacy:

Run the exact same setup except with an electic familiar in the RoBF slot and you will beat all RoBF users.

Not even close. The EF is subject to GA and AMF. As novice and others stated you need a huge AS to make a familiar work well. Something a RBF does not need as PL gives it tons of hp to last. Also, do not forget RBF users frequently have AMF which makes the EF last far less than the RBF.

Even a MoD will not target the RBF wearer if it is using an AoI or is not in first position. Which is easy to do.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 5:20 PM EST

the 70 most active that i pull data from aren't necessarily in the top. they are simply the most active clan users which can also encompass n*b's as well.

our population is what it is. it likely will not explode any time soon. regardless of the reason, i am hearing that it is perfectly acceptable to have one tat that is the only way to go?

Wraithlin March 4 2010 5:22 PM EST

And lastly to this fallacy:


RoBF teams over 90% run AMF, using AS is not a problem at all if you switch to EF. Not to mention you don't need to train EC or AMF vs a RoBF team for the most part because many don't have another source of damage higher than thier RoBF, so you could run 2x AS very easily.

High AC wall, HP/PL wall, 2x AS, EF somewhere in the mix other than first slot.

Destroy you some RoBF users.

Wraithlin March 4 2010 5:26 PM EST

Oh and since we like to put proof in our threads:

I have 3 people near my MPR farming me.

2 have EF.

1 has a big ELB/FF combo that beats me in 3-4 rounds.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 4 2010 5:32 PM EST

Which takes MPR. Which makes the RBF perfect for not losing to those with less MPR.


Like GA?

2 of the top 5 use ToA's. 2 of the Top 5 use RoBF. 1 uses a SF.

1 Uses over 300 AC (one is below by 5 points).

If the other three people in the Top 5 used over 300 AC, I doubt the 2 RBF teams would be doing as well.

QBRanger March 4 2010 5:58 PM EST

I have 3 people near my MPR farming me.

Anyone below your MPR by 10% beat you?

No, wonder why. With every other tattoo, one has people with lower MPR beating them.

Wraithlin March 4 2010 6:07 PM EST

Anyone below your MPR by 10% beat you?

No, wonder why. With every other tattoo, one has people with lower MPR beating them.


I don't wonder at all, i looked at the people in that range, 80% of them are abandoned/retired characters, the few that are "active" aren't using an EF or enough damage to beat me in ranged rounds.

About 500k ago I had 1-2 people with 10% under my MPR farming me with EF though.

hzarb March 4 2010 6:12 PM EST

As some stated, we need at least something to counter the RoBF to give those of us who refuse to be forced into such a strat to stand a chance. My char has always suffered against RoBF players for the initial reason Ranger stated - the inability to cause massive damage. With so many converting to RoBF, I suddenly got people with almost 2 million lesser MPR beating me. Sure, my strat might be lousy but switching to RoBF as the easiest way to solve it just doesn't sound right.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 7:29 PM EST

our population is what it is. it likely will not explode any time soon. regardless of the reason, i am hearing that it is perfectly acceptable to have one tat that is the only way to go?


with hzarb giving his input, which rarely happens and i respect the hell out of it for that reason, i would still like an answer to my above question.

we aren't upset that higher robf tats are beating us folks, it is the much lower ones and lower mpr characters who get such amazing return on investment with their mtl that we are worried about. ; (

swaggpy March 4 2010 7:41 PM EST

If the RoBF needs a change, I would be completely fine with removing/reducing everything other than the damage that ignores GA. Pretty much everything else about it is useless.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 4 2010 7:49 PM EST

I, however, would be quite displeased.

Wraithlin March 4 2010 8:16 PM EST

The RoBF can fight up, and the strat is good against all lower MPR so you don't usually have to worry about them. But it can't fight up near as well as other more specialized builds.

Take Joel and I as a comparison. He went ToA, I went RoBF, he has very conistently been able to farm better Challenge ratings than me during our NUBs because his strat is more specialized and if you compare our histories, he has grown at a faster percentage the entire time.

Yes he has been farmed by lower MPR people more than me, but he's got the better leveling build and can fight farther up than I can.

People just complain about the RoBF because it's good against everyone and great against nobody.

QBRanger March 4 2010 9:17 PM EST

And the fact Joel needs 100M NW weapon has nothing to do with it?

And as he climbs higher he will need to put a lot more money into his weapon to keep up his pace.

Vs the RBF needing nothing more than growth.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 9:53 PM EST

People just complain about the RoBF because it's good against everyone and great against nobody.


just out of curiosity wraithlin, your robf is what level? my jiggy is almost 10m and my mpr is just over 4m. you are beating me pretty handily at just under 3.4m mpr and what level robf? how exactly do you define "good" and "great"?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 10:15 PM EST

your tat seems to be less than 7.5m since that is the last one listed with the level and yours is two below that. you net worth is less than mine as well by about 30k.

how is this not "great" and only "good"?

QBRanger March 4 2010 10:50 PM EST

The RoBF can fight up, and the strat is good against all lower MPR so you don't usually have to worry about them. But it can't fight up near as well as other more specialized buildss Take Joel and I as a comparison. He went ToA, I went RoBF, he has very conistently been able to farm better Challenge ratings than me during our NUBs because his strat is more specialized and if you compare our histories, he has grown at a faster percentage the entire time.

Sure,

Let us compare you and Joel.

You: Wraithlin
Score 6,100,034
Power 4,950,963
MPR 3,392,177
Max Tattoo Level 8,690,829
Net Worth $225,973,860

Joel: Joel
Score 5,621,462
Power 6,212,124
MPR 4,388,289
Max Tattoo Level 12,524,489
Net Worth $349,022,741

Currently Wraithlin beats as highest score: Seen in last 24 hour battles: The Lega

Stats of Lega:

Score 6,626,367
Power 8,023,124
MPR 5,211,107
Max Tattoo Level 15,350,937
Net Worth $409,668,952

Currently Joel beats as highest score: Deadpool

Stats of Deadpool:

Score 7,093,738
Power 5,684,839
MPR 4,446,003
Max Tattoo Level 12,200,540
Net Worth $157,878,487

Now to see who is really fighting higher we need to compare adequately: By Challenge Bonus.

Wraithlin's CB: 6,626,367/4,950,963 = 1.34
Joel's CB: 7,093,738/6,212,124 = 1.14

So, contrary to your statement Wraith, you fight better and higher and get a higher CB than Joel.

Is that not enough to see how much the RBF is OP?

Wraithlin March 4 2010 11:02 PM EST

I double tapped Lega, i don't farm Lega.

Also, Joel's top score every 24 hour period is higher than mine.

And the reason I beat you is because of my large EC/Dex/Evasion/DBs moreso than the RoBF itself.

Wraithlin March 4 2010 11:02 PM EST

7.4M tat.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 11:09 PM EST

And the reason I beat you is because of my large EC/Dex/Evasion/DBs moreso than the RoBF itself.


that is the problem precisely. with less nw, less mpr and and a 75% smaller tat you can somehow have enough of those things to win. ; )

perhaps now you will realize that if i went with a robf, with more net worth, more tat and more mpr i could out robf you!

Wraithlin March 4 2010 11:11 PM EST

yes..if you build my exact strat but with more MPR you would beat me. that's a retarded argument.

Alternately you could be 15% MPR under me with a solid EF strat and farm the heck out of me. I just don't have anyone currently in that position, so I'm not. Another 2-4 weeks and I'll have two people under my MPR farming me with EFs.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 11:13 PM EST

how many lower level ef people are farming you?

Wraithlin March 4 2010 11:15 PM EST

As I said, I passed the two that used to be farming me since I was under NUB and they were not.

I am currently passing 2 more EFs that are just over my MPR so they will start to be under my MPR and farming me in about 2-4 weeks, maybe sooner.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 11:18 PM EST

i see now where you say none are. that is pretty telling, sounds like conjecture.

we have 4 ef's in the most active seventy people and we have 19 robf's. if the ef was a very effective strategy against the robf i would expect many more ef's.

over 1/4 of the tats among the active users are robf. if there was a good counter, we would be seeing it already. i am sure we will have ample time to see how effective other strats are against it before any change is made.

my question to the defenders of the robf is this...what percentage of robf users is too many if 27 percent isn't?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 11:22 PM EST

yes..if you build my exact strat but with more MPR you would beat me. that's a retarded argument.


ok, let's approach this differently. how many larger robf teams do you win against? how many smaller ones beat you regularly?

with you only having 75% of my tat level i really don't think i need to emulate your strategy to beat you. there will be some cases where close tats will be iffy, but for the most part it will be the larger robf takes the prize.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 4 2010 11:23 PM EST

btw, there are 11 tats, not counting lessers, and an even distribution would be around 9% for each tat.

Wraithlin March 4 2010 11:28 PM EST

I fight against 3 people with RoBF currently

3.8M MPR
4.1M MPR
5M MPR

I beat the 3.8M MPR, lose to the other two.

I have 3.3M MPR
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