Maybe 1 of the reasons we can't retain new players (in General)

Is because at any given time there will be 5 threads on what I agree with OB as intellectual drivel about the exact same subject. Maybe the same people who wanna play a LOTR-based browser game don't wanna be around in an environment where adults go back and forth at each other about politics. Now, I'm not saying this is fact, just sayin' it's a possibility and something I just now thought of.

Think that's probably why the forum part "debates" was created, and in turn the ability to turn it off... :)

Myth knows all.

i tend to agree with the op. as a wise man used to say, "you can get those kind of religious or political discussions in many places on the web and we really have no use for them here".

if we are to keep debates i would suggest turning it off by default...let people seek it out if they want it or in the very least in bold letters on each thread instruct new users on how to turn it off.

actually having it default to off (at least for the first week or two) is a good idea...

It would also put more of an emphasis on game related discussion for new users.

I completely agree, and think those who start clearly pointed, trolling threads (and continue to troll on them) should be banned.

And if responding to that sort of behavior in an attempt to push back against blatant misinformation, false dichotomies, and just an overall breaking of sensible discourse rules is also deemed inappropriate and unacceptable, then I sincerely hope I am banned as well (since I will never stop commenting on misinformation and cheap, rhetoric tricks to bluster and troll). If one side is presented, both sides need to be, especially when one side ignores facts and courtesy out of hand.

If only I got 10K for every time Sut used a big word... :)

How many syllables do we need? *smile* Or can I go short-but-obscure?

and how much would antidisestablishmentarianism be worth?

More importantly, how is that ^ in CB's dictionary?

Mythology, you must not have gotten the point I was trying to make. Maybe new players don't want to play on a game where the main activity of what seems to be a majority of the people is to have the same political debates over and over.

Yeah, I know you can have turn the Debates forum off. At least have respect for me not to respond like I'm a child. Obviously this thread is trying to deal with bigger issues than to be able to turn off the Debates forum.

I agree with almost everything Sut wrote here. Except I don't hope I am banned *grin*. I do hope that some basic rules are enforced and the name calling and inflammatory remarks like those we see from Ranger are punished, while respectful rational discussion is encouraged.

The problem here doesn't lie with the topics of politics and religion themselves. It's with those who use those topics as an excuse to post their vile, contemptible hate speech like Ranger does. The problem here is trolling, so let's focus on solving that rather than shutting down discussion.

A much more accurate, concise summation, though not a lot of big words, sorry Myth.

Starkiller - you're right, we shouldn't have to turn off a forum because of the behavior of the members within just to keep the new players around. It's a pretty clear sign that something is wrong if we do.

Generally it takes at least 2 people (usually more) to completely derail a thread.

I'd like to apologize for the current debate thread. I became involved in the debate and, once it started going off topic, I kept 'debating' instead of attempting to keep it on track. Unfortunately I don't feel comfortable putting my foot down now to straighten it out (appearance of bias perhaps?) having gone on so far with it.

I shall endeavour to manage this better in the future.

Yes

We should enforce a forum ban on ALL those who posted inflammatory remarks on any post in any forum.

Not just this Ranger guy you all are typing about.

Yes it takes 2 to tango.

But let us blame 1 person for the lack of new players.

Instead of other things such as a poor tutorial. Or a complex start to the game. Or imbalances of items that make some things just to overpowered.

Or perhaps most people do not want to play a text only game.

Or even that the one thing most people loved about CB, the routine changemonths, are no longer.

No. Let us all blame 1 person.

I will again remind you that pointing out trolling is not, in fact, trolling.

However,
These are incredibly valid points.

I'm not blaming you, Ranger, just to be clear. I am merely pointing out an observation I made between a possible reason why new players don't stick around.

These people are trying out a new game and aren't sure if they are even going to stick with it yet, and you think they are leaving because of something they read on the forums?

Huge stretch imo.

I doubt more than 50% of them even clicked on a forum before they quit the game. The first (and last) time they interacted with the forum was most likely the tutorial welcome message post, and possibly the response they may have added later saying thank you to it.

I rarely start visiting forums for games I'm on the fence about, I'm sure most of you are the same way, so I'm not sure why we're trying to assume that other people aren't like that and blame low recruitment on bad forum posts.

Besides, sometimes there's nothing better to do than piss off a couple of CB players when you're bored out of your mind hitting the fight button on the same list of people for the 3rd month in a row.

No, I'm not talking about game mechanics. If people don't like the game because of game mechanics, well, there's nothing you can do about that.

If the people who like the game mechanics leave, then it's because of the community and they find it oblique to their interests. It's common sense, really.

there are many, many places for debates on the web though and now even most news articles let people speak their mind at the end of stories.

most of the world is rather polarized these days regarding political issues, even when coming from different countries. it is very easy to fall under the illusion that the other side is made up of idiots and sheep.

when we did not allow religious or political discussions, we weren't constantly reminded of our fellow community members views, ideals, ignorance or idiocy. now we are reminded of that every time someone posts in the debate threads. even when we try to remain open-minded, the constant reminders and bickering will taint our views of our fellow players, this also includes their behavior when they are often at their worse.

it is for this reason that i pine for the days of old when jon would shut down such discussions regularly and i could at least pretend that everyone was as intelligent as they appeared when discussing mathematical formulas and game balance issues.

in short, what does having the debate thread and allowing religious or political discussions with said thread add to the game or our community that balances the fact that it might possibly drive some people away or leave a bad taste in their mouth?

and hopefully soon we won't have to theorize on why people don't stick around. once we can automate a way of gathering data on why all our new users fail to stick then the conjecture can end. ; )

Dudemus, you articulated my thoughts in a way I couldn't, awesome.

And yes, I am aware that it is harder for some of you to realize that the problem may not lay in the game mechanics, but in the community itself, which I estimate to be one of the reasons even veteran players are abandoning ship.

Wraithlin is completely right.

CB has many other problems.

CB is a great game for 5 years ago. Now, with the iphone, ipad, and netbooks, it is old school. Very old school. Most people now want some sort of graphics. Even crappy graphic but something. Something to hook you in while you are still exploring the game.

The NUB/NCB system is completely messed up. Veterans are upset that new players get in 6 months what they tried to get in years. And if you ever just mess up your NUB, you are really hosed. Miss a few days, and you lose countless growth.

Make the NUB/NCB 200% max and make the time longer. I know Jon stated that most people only play an online game for 4-6 months, IIRC, but CB is not like other online games. It should take years to accomplish what others have done in years.

Or better yet, listen to what most of the players want and put in a rolling bonus.

CB used to be great due to the massive swings that change month would produce. New items, spells, abilities. That is something of the past. I suspect CB is in a phase of minor tweaks with an occasional new item. But the new huge changes are likely something of days past.

One thing in particular is causing CB to lose new people more than anything-the tutorial. If that is not obvious, I do not know what to say.

I have referred people to CB and all have the same complaints about it. Difficult to get through. Does not make sense. Gets buggy and in some cases one cannot get to the next step. Either redo it or get rid of it and put new players into a special room with a couple people that want to help to guide them. CB has less than 10 new players a day so that should not be a problem.

Other problems are with item balance. There are just 4 real tattoo to use. Specialized strats or heavy NW strats can get away with a few of the others. If people cannot still see the imbalances with a few of the items, then we are destined to keep the current stagnation.

Still other problems for new players are the item traps. What in hell is the ES or the THF still doing in CB? or even the Mithril Cuirass? Purge the game of all the useless items.

I think these problems are far worse than the "intellectual drivel" that some think are driving new players away. If one likes CB as a game, one can easily turn off the forums or even not reply. Yes, the forums get heated at times, but one can easily not participate or look away.

But with me leaving, perhaps CB will see a new explosion of new players due to the lack of "intellectual drivel" in the forums with perfect peace and harmony. But I would not count on it. Not until the other more pressing problems are fixed.

Without any new items or spells, we have dissected most of what needs to be dissected.

What else is there to determine?

The same game balance issues keep popping up, and are discussed at length. Now it is just the same boring discussions.

This is what I enjoyed. The changemonths tended to mix things up for a bit, which made finding optimal strategies difficult. Thus, strategy discussion has stagnated.

While the discussions can get out of hand, I find them interesting to read because CB consists of a small community with a demographic that I wouldn't normally be exposed to.

Oh yeah, I find them interesting to read too, and I read a lot of them, even if I don't respond, for purely enlightening purposes. But I can imagine for a new player, who doesn't experience the stagnation with game mechanics, might be put off by this type of community.

It's something to think about, and I implore you to think about it before you just write me off as a moron. There's 2 parts to this game: the game itself and the community that plays it. Everyone focuses on the game mechanics part, thinking that with a new few features will solve our low player count. But why don't you consider the second factor that plays equally a role in whether people want to stay or leave?

I suspect, but cannot prove, that most of the new players leave due to the game itself and the mechanics.

As stated, the tutorial is almost unbearable. The challenge of early game-play is excruciating. Unbalanced items create for some very difficult play.

While the community is a large part of the game, it comes into play after one has been exposed to CB for a bit. And most of the community is extremely helpful to new players. Often giving them free advice, free items and a plethora of encouragement.

I doubt, but would love to be corrected if wrong, that very few like the game in the beginning and then decide to just leave due to some forum posts.