bug: active clans (in General)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 8 2010 11:06 PM EDT

from another post:

"i had thought at first it was a bug where clans were being dropped from the list erroneously and my original post was addressing that.

after jon stated what he did though, i realized that the real problem is that many clans are showing active and affecting how many clans get a bonus that shouldn't be in the list at all. at some times, it shows correctly though, usually mid-week but not every week, and then there are much fewer active clans as jon stated it should work. they then slowly add back to the list with no fights changing in their history.

jon stated only clans with at least one member with a positive net score for the interval show as active. right now there are at least a couple of pages of clans though with no member having a positive net score for 24 hours which is the interval used to determine active clans for the bonus amount."

TheHatchetman April 8 2010 11:08 PM EDT

anybody with a score, beit positive or negative is deemed active by the system. I was frustrated that even clans with negative points were getting a bonus when at one point, I had knocked all but a couple dozen clans into the negatives. More clans having bonus takes away the joy of being #1 or top 5. When 280 clans are deemd "active, 70 of them get a bonus, which means the difference between #1 and #10 is only 2%. Slumpy's singleton clan Varengaar is earning 82% of the bonus The Knighthood is, even though one is in 14th, and the other is in 1st place with about 6 times the contributed points.

But, especially with clans being the way they are now, I'm way too biased to have an opinion on the matter :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 8 2010 11:13 PM EDT

anybody with a score, beit positive or negative is deemed active by the system.

from what jon said though, that shouldn't be the case. he stated that clans would be active if any member has a net positive score for the interval.

AdminNightStrike April 8 2010 11:14 PM EDT

Ok, so on that stats page, that is:

View Standard, the criteria for listing is:

The clan has to be a standard clan
The last date logged has to be within 24 hours
Either a clam member has to have added points to the clan, OR a non member has to have taken points away

Meet those, and you get on the list.

AdminNightStrike April 8 2010 11:18 PM EDT

Ugh.. foiled by my own quoting mechanism :(

Dude, not sure when/where Jon said that. I just read the sql statement, though.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 8 2010 11:22 PM EDT


he posted on december 18th.

that thread was originally created trying to figure out why one day we had several pages of active clans, and the next we only had one.

after seeing this happen several times now it appears that mid-week, if it happens that week, it goes from what you stated the sql filter is to what jon stated in that thread it should be. pretty much all of those where at least one member did not have a positive net score disappeared and then slowly reappeared over 12 hours or so.

AdminNightStrike April 8 2010 11:26 PM EDT

Are you sure that the clans in question just didn't have anyone attack them for a while? If a clan has no members that earned it points, and no non-members that took points away, it'll drop off the list.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 8 2010 11:29 PM EDT

i tested that in one of the threads at the time by attacking them and also just by looking at their fightlogs. it made no difference and when they came back again their fight history hadn't changed.

again we were talking about three or so pages of clans, one or two might have been that but all of the rest had no changes from when they disappeared to when they reappeared.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 8 2010 11:35 PM EDT

my december 12 posts in that thread describe it as it was happening and i noted several times how when they came back nothing had changed with them from when i looked at them when they weren't showing on the standard clan list.

TheHatchetman April 8 2010 11:43 PM EDT

Actually, NS is on the money there. It doesn't "switch over", what happens is people hit inactive clans early in the week so that they can get bonus in the top 20 or so, so a dropoff on the list from Tuesday to Wednesday is common. Then new players, or NCBs hit a few different clans on their way up. This happens throughout the week, but if we have a heavy N*B start day, the next day will experience a significant drop. Any other correlations to the time of the week the drops occur are coincidental.

And biased or not, here goes! I'm still of the opinion that there should be a low minimum set on number of clan points necessary to earn a bonus. Somewhere about 300 (that's less than one full set of BA from one person spent winning every fight against non-clan targets), figuring if they can't pull that off, they're not very active then, are they? With the bonus split 23 ways as opposed to it's current 70 or so, that would put the bonus incriments closer to .6 per rank, and really provide some motivation for those on the outside of the top 10 to actually get some competition going.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 8 2010 11:50 PM EDT

i used the -2 clans as an example as they are the easiest to show. there were others though that were negative 2 to negative 12. i can understand one fight dropping off and losing clans.

we lost almost all negative clans and all zero clans or ones where the negatives zeroed out the positives. one fight dropping off could certainly make a difference on the -2 pointers but not on all the others.

TheHatchetman April 8 2010 11:53 PM EDT

-12 pointers are only 6 fights (3 fights if the losing attacker was in a clan themselves). usually from the same person, on the same BA set. if it ain't -50 or more, it's probably the same person. If it's over -300, then the clan likely doesn't have much time before it will be disbanded.

AdminNightStrike April 9 2010 12:01 AM EDT

Disbanding is at I believe -1000.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 12:07 AM EDT

i cannot prove you wrong now because it isn't happening but that really wouldn't explain what was happening at the time. it is pretty easy when it is going on to look at the battle logs and see when the last fight was and what you are saying could have accounted for a handful of the ones that disappeared but not multiple pages. also when they started coming back it was in big chunks at a time.

how long, once a fight occurs against an inactive clan, does it take for the clan to show on the clans>view standard list?

TheHatchetman April 9 2010 12:11 AM EDT

how long, once a fight occurs against an inactive clan, does it take for the clan to show on the clans>view standard list?

until the clan list is updated (seems like every 10 minutes or so.), or until the clan's page is looked at (which updates the clan page for just that clan specifically).

Far as them coming back in big chunks, it's because NCBs hit a few dozen clan targets on the way up.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 12:12 AM EDT

i just fought hellbent clan, who wasn't showing in view>standard and had a non-score. they immediately showed up in view>standard with a -2 score.

when this issue was going on though, it was almost 24 hours after i gave two clans a -2 score before they showed up and it was in a fairly small time frame that a bunch of other clans showed back up as well with them.

if they were just dropping off naturally, fighting them would throw them back on as quickly as i just did with hellbent i would surmise.

TheHatchetman April 9 2010 12:18 AM EDT

not sure what you saw before =/

AdminNightStrike April 9 2010 12:05 PM EDT

Dude, if you can find me a clan that meets the criteria I gave but yet isn't in that list, then I will look at it.

Hatch, I understand your point of view. Currently, we just rank all the clans by score, regardless of what that score is. For clans with the same score, their order is randomized. We then take the top 25% of those and distribute the bonus. This means that it is in theory possible for every single clan to have a negative score, and still have 25% of them getting a bonus. That's not necessarily a bad thing, however. A clan with negative score is still participating, just more as a target than an attacker :)

If you want to thin out the clan herds, there's nothing wrong with attacking a stale clan until it's at -1000 and disbanded.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 12:17 PM EDT

i will try to send you a link to some when it happens again, i had done so back when but i don't think you were understanding what i saying was happening.

just to be clear for everyone though and to make sure i understand how it works, if a clan has either positive or negative on that far right pane of the clan window under "24 hour raw scores" they should show up in the clans>view standard list. when their scores drop off of that pane, then they should no longer show up.

TheHatchetman April 9 2010 12:36 PM EDT

This means that it is in theory possible for every single clan to have a negative score, and still have 25% of them getting a bonus.

Technically at least one clan has to be positive, otherwise where are the negatives coming from? :P

That's not necessarily a bad thing, however. A clan with negative score is still participating, just more as a target than an attacker :)

But do they deserve a bonus for that?

If you want to thin out the clan herds, there's nothing wrong with attacking a stale clan until it's at -1000 and disbanded.

At 757 clans, assuming 57 of them are active for the sake of easy numbers, that's 700 clans requiring 250 BA each... makes for 175,000 BA. If I didn't have Heroes, I may be tempted to get started. Seeing as I doubt anyone else is willing to spend the next 6 and a half months farming inactives with a 10/20 char, I still like the minimum point value thing. ^_^

But I guess it really comes down to "how much of a factor is clan bonus supposed to be?" Are we supposed to compete and strive for the top, or just join a clan out of necessity and because it gives us something else to name?

TheHatchetman April 9 2010 12:37 PM EDT

Re-reading the thread I'm amazed at our short attention spans :P We're off topic as hell in a thread that was made because we were way off topic in a thread before it...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 12:44 PM EDT

if it worked the way jon stated in the thread instead of the sql view that is show, they would definitely be more competitive. i do wish we could get his input, but without that ns is right in assuming that he set the filter the way he wanted it.

what i am trying to accomplish though is not to change it but to make sure it works as we assume he intended and works over time bug free.

as to my opinion regarding clans competitiveness, i would be reluctant to change it at the current time as making it more difficult to get a bonus might drive some users away. the flip-side of that coin though is that by keeping it too easy this could drive some away.

it is for that reason that i like to stick to bugs defined as things not working as intended, i leave the intentions to others because that is the truly difficult part of the game and where trusting a vision comes into play. not that i mind giving my opinion at times about balance issue though. ; )

AdminNightStrike April 29 2010 12:10 AM EDT

Find any yet that are exhibiting this behavior?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 29 2010 12:12 AM EDT

it really isn't a single clan issue or if it is that is too hard to detect. when it happens, we go (in the span of a few hours) from 4 or 5 pages of actives one or two with virtually no negatives listed. i have been watching closely but have yet to see it happen again. we have a very small list now, but there are some negatives and i am not seeing what i did that one time.

AdminNightStrike April 29 2010 12:13 AM EDT

Ok. Just let me know if it comes up, and I'll look at it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 29 2010 12:15 AM EDT

feel free to remind me as well but i have been remembering to check 2 to 3 times a week, especially if the bonuses seem lower!
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