Clans! (in General)

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 4:46 PM EST

Where did all the clans go? I like that it's cleaned up. But this is just plain rude >;0 .. haha..

Rank / Bonus: 6 / 9.2%

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 4:48 PM EST

not sure, usually by this time in the week it has stabilized. crazy!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 4:54 PM EST

i am pretty sure that yesterday we at least had a second page of clans, now we are down to like 54?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 11 2009 6:47 PM EST

I thought clans only got disband for having neg 1k for the week?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 7:02 PM EST

we are down to 46 clans since my last post, we were at 54 then!

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 11 2009 7:02 PM EST

Yeah, something is really wrong, clans are just disappearing.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 7:06 PM EST

could an admin possibly change the title on the thread to:

bug: clans are disappearing at an alarming rate!

adampurkis December 11 2009 7:09 PM EST

maybe somebody is getting rid of old clearly unactive clans

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] December 11 2009 7:12 PM EST

Shade is having his way and now 11th place is 1.4% ?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 7:13 PM EST

hehe, my thoughts exactly and i pm'd him to see if he had done anything, lol!

QBRanger December 11 2009 7:17 PM EST

Did we not ask for abandoned clans to be disbanded?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] December 11 2009 7:19 PM EST

Using "we" loosely.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- December 11 2009 7:19 PM EST

I'll be really upset if my clan gets disbanded, I hope it's just inactive clans. Other than that I don't really care as it doesn't effect me too much. /me hugs his 15%

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 8:59 PM EST

we lost another one...sob!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 9:02 PM EST

the really crazy thing is that since i first started watching, anarchy online has had the worst score but it is still there.

Mikel [Bring it] December 11 2009 9:06 PM EST

"Using "we" loosely. "

Oh now I see how it works. Can you put in a request to have the Exbow adjusted? And the Robf nerfed?

Sickone December 11 2009 9:09 PM EST

At this rate, soon enough, we'll barely have the top 5 clans earning any points :)
Hooray for the almost total collapse of the clan system !

QBRanger December 11 2009 9:10 PM EST

I can think of someone who is happy.

Sickone December 11 2009 9:10 PM EST

"ユRank / Bonus: 11 / 1.4% "


gols090 [forge of me] December 11 2009 9:16 PM EST

If the intention is to create more competition, then I hope the max bonus is increased along with decrease in # of clans. At least to 20% max, or maybe even 30%. I would think the incentive of a big bonus is more appealing/effective than the threat of almost no bonus. "We" are trying to get more clan participation right?

kevlar December 11 2009 9:21 PM EST

I think the competition is fine. Cleaning up the clan list is nice, and makes it easier for new players to find active clans. The bonus should be adjusted accordingly. I'm confused why there isn't anything in the changelog yet, unless there is other stuff going on?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 9:28 PM EST

if it wasn't accidental or buggy, then i am wondering if the devs put in some code to remove clans with zero score after a certain point in the week and it is removing ones that have been active but hit zero naturally instead of just still being at zero.

the reason i suspect this is once again since anarchy online is not being removed but ones that have a higher score than them have gone missing.

pure speculation until we get word from someone in the know though.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 9:32 PM EST

also, the fact that there are no zero scored clans in the list also makes me think that is what happened.

adampurkis December 11 2009 9:36 PM EST

yeah anarchy online may have a bad score, but they are still active.. so therefore shouldnt get disbanded?

kevlar December 11 2009 9:45 PM EST

I can recall seeing something happening with the bonus a couple months ago (or longer), it was around the time Shade mentioned about cleaning up the clans. I thought it had been done then because the rewards were crazy low for being ranked fairly high, but he said the clan list wasn't touched. Wonder if the same thing is going on now? The rewards resolved within a day. It's funny because I thought it was just me because noone else said anything, that I know of then.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 9:46 PM EST

kev, that always happened at the first of the week. as far as i know this has never happened during the week and especially having two pages of clans and then losing them like this.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 9:50 PM EST

There is a chance that it is just that there are no ncb/ new players fighting and hitting any clan targets down in the low regions.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 9:51 PM EST

nem, i can understand how that would happen if this is all that ever showed up after sunday but we have been losing clans that were here yesterday so how would that work?

kevlar December 11 2009 9:56 PM EST

Oh I never knew that Dudemus, good to know!

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] December 11 2009 9:57 PM EST

This seems to be the evil plot of Sutekh at work.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 9:57 PM EST

sut and shade together methinks! ; 0

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 10:02 PM EST

from what i understand, clans have to have a score of either positive, negative or zero to show up. after sunday when we get the day of rest, all clans have a non-score which means they don't even show up.

they can attack, be attacked or both to change that and once they have a score, even if they win some and then lose some and go back to zero then they still stay in the list. the only time non-scores matter is after sunday when the 24 hour rest puts us all in the non-score state.

that is why i cannot see how this is in any way normal as we had more clans yesterday and have been losing them steadily. that is also why i thought some code might have been introduced to clean up non-scoring clans as the week progresses but that it might be getting clans with zero score erroneously.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 10:20 PM EST

it does seem that many of the clans are still there but just showing a non score state at this time. i have no idea why this would happen at the end of the week though.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 11 2009 11:18 PM EST

Yeah the clans are still there. Click on clan standings for one week

and there are 5 pages worth of clans. It appears all the 0 point clans

are just not showing in the system or counting towards the clan

standings of course i could be wrong though.

Also if this is some new change, I am not so sure I am impressed with

it. This will make running ncb's even harder. Those clan bonuses are

important for a real run to the top.

AdminShade December 12 2009 6:38 AM EST

sut and shade together methinks! ; 0

I honestly have to say I have had no part in this. Sunday I will make the weekly Economic Report again, lets see what is happening.

AdminShade December 12 2009 6:39 AM EST

And yes, at the moment we have ~300 clans as opposed to 500.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 10:22 AM EST

if this is permanent, i foresee a downward spiral for clan warfare. our clan is usually in the top ten or so and we have been going in and out of bonuses for the last 24 hours with a max bonus of around 2 percent.

we do not have the choice to beat people that we cannot and thus take their bonus and make it our own. that leaves us with really only three choices we can make:

~ say to heck with clans and seek out non-clan targets that might give us a challenge bonus to replace our former clan bonus (the more people that make this choice reduces how many other clans will get a bonus)

~ become fodder for other people to get a bonus. no one really likes just being fodder though and that is really not much of an option

~ disband and form singleton clans. if all of the clans that don't get a bonus regularly would do this and increase the number of clans, then more would get a bonus. this is now a more expensive option than it used to be since clan costs went up. (this also does nothing for clan warfare as forcing people to go single really doesn't build camaraderie)

for those who wanted this to happen, how again is it supposed to increase clan competition and warfare?

AdminNightStrike December 12 2009 12:48 PM EST

I can tell you that I did not change anything regarding clans, and I have not heard from Jon. Without looking into it, I would guess that somebody just started picking off inactive clans (it only takes one fight, after all).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 12:50 PM EST

there are now no negative clans at all in the standard list. i don't see how that can be attributed to someone knocking off clans. there should be some negative numbers at this point i would think.

AdminNightStrike December 12 2009 12:56 PM EST

Not if they did it yesterday.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:00 PM EST

ok, i fought two lowbie clans that weren't showing up on the list yesterday (Bloodbath Inc..., and blood nights).

they are still in existence and have a score of -2 each for 24 hours. the way it has always worked is that they should still be showing as active on standard clans. since i fought them yesterday they have now dropped off, but they haven't beeen disbanded nor fought by anyone else than me.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:02 PM EST

clan ids 1686 and 1243.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:05 PM EST

whoa, 2 pages now instead of one. woot!

kevlar December 12 2009 1:06 PM EST

This is really similar to what I noticed that time I was talking about.

AdminShade December 12 2009 1:07 PM EST

(it only takes one fight, after all).

To put them in current clans indeed. To make them gone you need 1000 points in 24 hours. You don't just remove 200 clans in 24 hours.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:13 PM EST

well in three minutes time a whole new page appeared and the bonuses adjusted accordingly. oddly enough the two clans i mentioned above now show in the list and there is no new activity since i attacked them yesterday.

crazy stuff!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:37 PM EST

now anarchy online isn't showing but it was a few minutes ago. it is not disbanded though.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:38 PM EST

actually, all the negative clans have disappeared again.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 12 2009 1:39 PM EST

Help us NS, save us from the clan eater!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:43 PM EST

anarchy online is clan number 1822 btw.

FailBoat[SG] [Forever Alone] December 12 2009 2:18 PM EST

# Score / raw score: -1,441 / -1,310
# Rank / Bonus: 159 / 0%

Wow... I'm surprised they havn't been disbanded with a 24hr score in the Negative. o.O

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 2:19 PM EST

i think it is weekly score, not sure though.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 2:26 PM EST

negative scores and even a zero are back at the current time, we have even grown to a 3rd page. anarchy online is also back at this time.

AdminShade December 12 2009 2:30 PM EST

you can set to display daily or weekly scores :)

TheHatchetman December 12 2009 3:44 PM EST

What's wrong with clans actually being competative as opposed to everyone and their mama getting a 10%+ bonus?

QBRanger December 12 2009 3:47 PM EST

I, like Hatch, like the current amount of clans.

Where being at the top actually makes a difference.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 12 2009 3:50 PM EST

I think the bonus should be curved. Where a lot of clans can get a fair to good bonus (5-10%) and where there is a fair difference for the top few clans.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 4:54 PM EST

regardless of how you feel about clans, they shouldn't be appearing and disappearing. that is buggy and my main concern here.

AdminNightStrike December 12 2009 9:57 PM EST

I can't say I'm terribly worried about it. Honestly, nothing can stop anyone from going and forcing old clans to be unretired just by fighting them into the negatives.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 10:00 PM EST

that's not what is happening though. the same clans are disappearing and reappearing. we had two pages, then one, then two, then three. from the time that they disappeared to when they reappeared nothing had changed with their scores.

Zenai [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 12 2009 10:31 PM EST

now that is really weird......

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 12 2009 10:33 PM EST

Yeah NS, somethings just really buggy. Non-zero clans are disappearing from the list.

Joel December 13 2009 7:08 AM EST

I know all of you have already noticed by now, but the clan bonuses are back to normal! Must've been the tournament that made all of the invisible clans reappear ^.^

Flamey December 13 2009 7:10 AM EST

Just got the CM that it was a negative weekly score of -1000. I was on vacation and didn't switch out, it sucks big time.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 14 2009 11:18 AM EST

i am going to be posting the number of clans at various times here to see if we have an issue like last week again, as of now:

156 clans showing in standard clans

AdminShade December 14 2009 11:55 AM EST

Joel: that would be truly nuts because tournament characters have nothing to do with clans... :)

Joel December 14 2009 12:49 PM EST

Really... I had noticed, as soon as the tournament was well under way, all these clans with little -2 and +2 scores going all the way down to page six on the standard clan screen. If thats not the case, then I wonder what happened. Might have just been a coincidence >.>

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 14 2009 12:50 PM EST

Well, the tourney certainly added a bunch of those because tourney chars went and attacked clan targets, then won or lost to them and if they lost then those clans would show up with positive points.

Joel December 14 2009 1:00 PM EST

We should have a tourney going all the time then! Then we could keep those clans from disappearing!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 14 2009 1:25 PM EST

206 standard atm.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 14 2009 3:58 PM EST

251 as of now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 14 2009 7:36 PM EST

292 now.

Rawr December 14 2009 8:10 PM EST

Can non-clan characters take points away?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 14 2009 9:47 PM EST

nope. ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 15 2009 1:32 PM EST


DoS December 15 2009 1:35 PM EST

Rank / Bonus: 40 / 8.1%

Something like this is fairly ridiculous in my opinion.

QBOddBird December 15 2009 1:36 PM EST

Agreed, when you're all the way back at 40, why should you be getting a clan bonus?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 15 2009 1:44 PM EST

regardless of how you feel about clans, they shouldn't be appearing and disappearing. that is buggy and my main concern here.

from my post above. if you feel the clan system needs changing, please start a new thread for those discussions. ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 7:11 AM EST

down to 217 now. let's see if it keeps falling.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 7:18 AM EST

we lost 124 overnight, this really couldn't have been done by someone farming them into the negatives and therefore must be a bug in the system.

Admiralkiller [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 16 2009 9:21 AM EST

This should be changed to top 25 clans get a standard bonus and if we get more legit clans then an admin can change the bonus for total amount of clans to get a bonus up to 30, 40 or 50 clans etc etc. This would eliminate 40th place getting a bonus when it's obviously undeserved and eliminate being 18 and not getting a bonus at all.

I also think that when a clan is active the disband after -1000 should be changed. Maybe a scale of lost points vs gained points would be better.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 3:11 PM EST

down to 198 now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 10:03 PM EST

we are now down to 196 standard clans which is down by 145 from yesterday afternoon.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 17 2009 10:26 AM EST

141 right now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 17 2009 10:30 AM EST

this means that we have 200 less clans showing in the list than our peak two days ago.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 17 2009 3:25 PM EST

we are now down to 79 clans showing in the standard list which is 262 less clans than our peak this week.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 17 2009 3:42 PM EST

Clans most likely disappear when they go back to a no point situation. That is they have no points gained an no points taken away. They will show up with 0 if they have 0 with points gained and points lost.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 17 2009 3:43 PM EST

nem, in one of the above posts i stated that two of the clans i had given negative points to still existed and still had negative points even though they did not show up in the list.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 17 2009 3:44 PM EST

also, anarchy online disappeared from the list, before they were disbanded, and had quite a negative score.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 17 2009 3:50 PM EST

also, when clans started reappearing the two that i spoke of also reappeared and still showed the -2 points for the week.

i do think the bug is that clans are showing up as no score as all of the ones i inspected that should have been showing in the list showed no score on the left hand side even though they had activity on the right hand side and should have actually showed some score.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 17 2009 6:49 PM EST

we are now down to 67 clans.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 17 2009 8:19 PM EST

NS, need more evidence yet?

AdminNightStrike December 17 2009 11:17 PM EST

Evidence, no. Clues, yes.

I've called in support :)

AdminNightStrike December 17 2009 11:20 PM EST

Where are you looking to find the total clan count?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 18 2009 12:38 AM EST

i'm assuming the View standard clan page

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 18 2009 6:29 AM EST

that is correct!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 18 2009 10:11 AM EST

since the auto-disbanding works of off weekly net score, then i would assume that the system would also have the same time interval for not showing non-score clans. in other words, if the clan has any score activity during the week it should remain in the list all of that week with those numbers reset each sunday.

perhaps a good first step would just be verifying that time frame.

that wouldn't explain why some clans who had a score weren't showing in the list but it would rule out that we have an issue compounded by multiple problems.

TheHatchetman December 18 2009 7:30 PM EST

Rank / Bonus: 25 / 2.1%

still too high a bonus for 7 total points :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 18 2009 8:07 PM EST

still not the thread for that! ; )

AdminJonathan December 18 2009 10:27 PM EST

There have been 12 auto-disbands since dec 4.

Only clans with someone having net positive score in the given interval are shown. You can see from the "1 week" and "1 month" page that the "missing" clans are still around.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2009 4:24 AM EST

what then is the given interval for them showing in the standard clans list and thusly affecting the number of clans getting a bonus? this list does often show zero or negative scores as well.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2009 4:29 AM EST

Only clans with someone having net positive score in the given interval are shown.

i reread that, the error may be then that at the first of the week some clans are showing that shouldn't be and thus affecting the number of clans gaining bonuses.

it does seem to drop those later in the week though. they could have had someone lose to them i guess but this does give us some great info for checking next week! thanks.

just to be clear though, the standard clans list and also the "someone having net positive score" is based on a 24 hour interval?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2009 4:38 AM EST

another question please, how often is the clans>view standard, which i think just links to 24 clan stats, updated? i know it isn't real time but i am unsure what the exact interval is.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2009 9:42 AM EST

when i was on earlier i looked at some of the clans showing on the page, here is one that did not meet the query as i understand it given by jon. i thought it must have gone negative recently and would disappear at the next refresh but it is still there and still doesn't meet the requirements as i understand them.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2009 9:43 AM EST

unless of course it is a member having a positive "raw" score as opposed to "net" score as was stated?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2009 9:45 AM EST

and this one was around at the same time (4:30) with not positve net or raw score.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2009 10:38 AM EST

also, this is what our wiki now states:
The top 25% of fighting clans get a bonus to rewards per fight.

to be precise, that should read:

The top 25% of fighting clans with at least one member having a net positive score for 24 hours get a bonus to rewards per fight.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 21 2009 2:56 PM EST

ok, here is what i don't get. as of right now we have quite a few clans sitting at -2 score. each of these also have members with a -2 net score. from what jon said they shouldn't be in the list.

i think what may be happening is that they show up erroneously and at some point the system does clear them out, but the buggy part may just be them showing up in the first place.

Demigod December 21 2009 3:10 PM EST

See if those clans disappear tomorrow. There's the possibility that the clans only drop periodically rather than in real time.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 21 2009 3:16 PM EST

perhaps, what has been happening the last two weeks is that sometime around wednesday they drop off.

the thing i think is buggy though is that they shouldn't be there in the first place at all.

TheHatchetman December 21 2009 4:30 PM EST

-2 is activity. inactive is when nobody has any positive or negative points ~_^

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 21 2009 5:20 PM EST

that is not what jon stated above though:
Only clans with someone having net positive score in the given interval are shown. You can see from the "1 week" and "1 month" page that the "missing" clans are still around.

that is the bug methinks, not that they are disappearing later in the week but that they shouldn't be showing at all early in the week!

TheHatchetman December 21 2009 5:33 PM EST

seems you are right... though somehow i interpretted that as any activity causes them to show. Probably just drew it from what i noticed (I'm doing working a bit with clan points for the time being). But when a clan is disbanded, all stats go away instantly. If they're on the yearly stat board, they exist. ~_^

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 21 2009 5:37 PM EST

the funny thing is that if it was working as jon stated above, we would have fewer clans getting a bonus, which is what many have stated they want.
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