Merging Ranged and Physical rounds revisited (in General)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 25 2010 9:45 AM EDT

I first bought this up ages ago, and Shade asked me to post my ideas, which I had subsequently lost! lol.

I hashed something together, but the idea of merging ranged and physical always sat in the back of my mind, as something (other than how to make Damage & Penetration systems actually work...) to fully realise.

I know this is actually quite radical, and has next to no chance of ever being implemented into CB, but that's not gonna stop me explaining my idea, and hopefully getting some help to work through it! ;)

Basically, no distinct Ranged/Melee rounds, and the weapon you use determining at what 'range' you attack.

In deatil.

There's a new Intrinsic, called Initiative/Movment/Speed.

Each attack in CB assigns a 'movement' to the attacker. Either towards your opponent or away from them.

At the start of each round, much like to-hit calculations (and other stat versus stat comparisons in CB), the attacker and target compare 'Initiative' scores. The highest wins the movement type for those attackers in that round.

In general Ranged Weapons default to moving away, Melee to towards. But more on that later.

There are 4 possible outcomes of movement involved, and a nice flavour name for each.

Ranged winning versus Ranged. Winner 'Snips' opponent.
Ranged winning versus Melee. Ranged 'Disengages' from Melee.
Melee winning versus Ranged. Melee 'Charges' Ranged.
Melee winning versus Melee. Melee 'Engages' opponent.

What does this all mechanically mean?

In general, the Ranged penalties exist, but as a single set average amount. The penalties for Ranged weapons used in Melee are also kept.

Sniping: The winner is able to keep the target at favourable range, while keeping them at bay. Attacker doesn't suffer the Ranged penalties, while the target still does.

Disengage: The Melee target is unable to attack. The Ranged Attacker still suffers the usual Ranged penalty.

Charge: Melee Attacker catches the ranged target, attacks as normal, and in return the Ranged target attacks suffering the Ranged in Melee penalty.

Engage: The Winning Melee attacker overpowers their opponent, attacking with a damage and to-hit bonus, based on the Initiative comparison.

What weapon does what;

Ranged weapons all default to 'away'
Melee Weapons all default to 'towards'
FB defaults to 'away'
MM is special. And defaults movement to whatever is more beneficial. 'Away' when facing a Melee Opponent, 'towards' when facing Ranged.
Melee DD (Decay, CoC & SG) all default to 'towards'

Having no weapon equipped also default to the most beneficial, like MM.

Multiple Weapons;

There is a reason to use both a Ranged and Melee Weapon. You will switch Weapons based on what 'range' you end up at. Your Primary Wepaon will be the largest Weapon by NW.

Your secondary weapon adds no PR at all. For X or PTH.

For exmaple, a Bone weilding Tank with a smaller SoD is fighting an ELBow archer. He doesn't win Initiative, and can't attack with his Bone, so whips out his SoD, but suffers from a 'sniped' result.

The HoC would need to be changed slightly, and other items added/amended to work with the new Intrinsic.

Phew. What do you all think? :P

Sickone May 25 2010 10:23 AM EDT

Sounds like MM or ranged weapon plus high initiative results in an easy win :)
Not sure it can be done with reasonable programming-side effort, as the devil's in the details - you'd have to tweak it very, very carefully to not have a completely overpowered side in either one, or just end up with a situation where initiative >> everything else and it becomes a nearly linear game where highest initiative becomes the one overwhelming winning factor.
Sounds good as a concept though, yet has the potential for too much trouble if not done JUST right... very tricky.

Sickone May 25 2010 10:35 AM EDT

The more I think of it, the trickier it becomes.
This all sounds clear on paper as long as each team only has one minion... but how exactly would you handle multiple minion fighting ? What if each side had, say, a CoC mage, a MM mage, an archer and a jigorokano familiar plus a wall ?

Would you determine range on a minion-pair basis, or on a team-wide basis ? If done on a team-wide basis, which movement action do you choose ? The one of your highest initiative or that of the best weapon/spell ? If done on a per-minion basis, what's the point of minon order anymore, initiative level would pretty much override that. Or do you propose to follow the normal battle order and just decide the damage dealt via initiative and nothing else ? That's... weird. I've seen weirder though, don't mind me :)

So, basically, anyway, you could keep an entire battle in only ranged or only melee ? Shouldn't "initiative" decay somehow for whoever won initiative then, to give the other side a chance to do something too ? How high should the base initiative be, just a 20 ? A minion that always loses initiative checks is probably better off than a minion with 20 HP (at least that one can be assisted via PL). Do you plan to also add an initiative ED to the mix ? Would this initiative revamp come with a free retrain ? And so on and so forth.

Like I said, the devil really is in the details :D
This idea still needs a whole lot more work ;)

Zenai May 25 2010 10:43 AM EDT

Well tis a good idea. What dudemus said. And to be a bit biased ELB users will get the short end if this stick. We already have to train HP,Dex,Str and Archery.....with this we would also have to train Initiative as well just to use our Weapon of choice..... Oy it would suck to have to do this....

Zenai May 25 2010 10:57 AM EDT

Err rephrase "What Sickone said"...sorry bro :-/

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 25 2010 11:25 AM EDT

It's on an attack, by attack basis.

Considering facing only one opponent atm, (and consider each 'round' fluid) each attacker, in turn, would compare thier intiiative to thier target, to figure out how thier attack is resolved. This also holds for the 'defender' attacking.

For exmaple, a Tank (1st place) and an Archer (2nd place) face a single FB Mage.

The Tank and Mage compare Init, the Mage wins and the Tank is unable to attack (he has no ranged weapon equipped). The Archer then does the same, and for this case, wins (the comparison can have a slight random element as well, doesn't have to be fixed), and is able to 'snipe' the mage. In return, the Mage has a higher Initiative than the Tank, and Fire's thier FB all at 'range' (so slightly reduced damage as per normal, but no Melee backlash).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 25 2010 11:27 AM EDT

So, basically, anyway, you could keep an entire battle in only ranged or only melee ?

Yes. :)

Shouldn't "initiative" decay somehow for whoever won initiative then, to give the other side a chance to do something too ?

Yes, that's a good idea. ;) Or it can be slightly randomised, like damage.

How high should the base initiative be, just a 20 ?

Just 20, like the other three intrinsics.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 25 2010 11:28 AM EDT

with this we would also have to train Initiative as well just to use our Weapon of choice.....

Everyone would.

Including Mages.

Or you just leave it at base. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 25 2010 11:30 AM EDT

If done on a per-minion basis, what's the point of minon order anymore, initiative level would pretty much override that.

Minion order is still necessary, as that's who gets hit (and Initiatives compared for) by al single target attacks, unless Invisibility is in play.

Minion order is still very important.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 25 2010 11:33 AM EDT

with this we would also have to train Initiative as well just to use our Weapon of choice.....

You'd be able to attack just fine with a base Initiative, depending on how Init = Init calculation worked out. ;)

Besides, you could also carry, and up, a Melee Weapon (Archers dagger FTW!) for those times you're caught in Melee and it would be better for you to swing instead of shoot.

This would also give those guys who love upping thier items something to do, without impacting the NW-PR link in any way. ;)

Zenai May 25 2010 3:32 PM EDT

.Ok GL I still have to say the redundancy of trainibg Archery AND Initiative is counterproductive for ElB users and MSKer Users that train it for extra damage. Overall this is a Specialty for a Specialty for Archers. Not fun or fair to them if you get what I mean

Shadow Ruler May 25 2010 4:47 PM EDT

sounds interesting it would certainly bring back blood lust into high score CB :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 25 2010 5:30 PM EDT

Zen I don't think you quite get it. ;)

Zenai May 25 2010 7:01 PM EDT

GL I get it fine I'm not sure if I am explaining myself right.

All ELB users Must train Archery in order to use their weapons properly(without massive penalties). Now with this Initiative they will have to train this as well just to once again do the exact same thing, avoid penalties. Yes there is a Chance to get the upper hand I am not denying that but to train 2 things just to keep out of the Penalties Ring on the same weapon......not fair and uncalled for. Yes there is merit to this but for ELB users and others who use Archery will suffer from this if it were to be implemented.

Now if Archery were to be taken away or the Intrinsic worked differently with Archery then I would say yes this is well rounded in my book and could add spice to the game.

In short, Take Archery away or Add in a Mechanic for Archery so it will not be such a drain on Exp to stay out of the Penalty box.

Sickone May 25 2010 7:03 PM EDT

Zen : on the other hand, a very high initiative will allow you to hit much harder with your bow while also receiving less damage from enemy archers and mages, and THEORETICALLY allow you to fight up to 50 rounds of ranged damage, never actually engaging in melee (physical, magical, or maybe even ROBF)... that's actually OVERPOWERED :)

Zenai May 25 2010 7:08 PM EDT

I just thought about this and had to ask.....How would the HoC work with this Intrinsic? I mean they give and extra Ranged Round.....in the beginning of Ranged......Automatic Initiative Override for the first Round then the rest of the rounds are calculated via the Initiative Intrinsic?

Zenai May 25 2010 7:12 PM EDT

Sickone: I saw that too but my concern is not really in that direction since in the upper ranks Initiative would be King. Penalties are my first thought, this would hamper Archers a LOT and put them in the unwanted section for sure.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2010 3:18 AM EDT

How would the HoC work with this Intrinsic?

The HoC would need to be changed slightly, and other items added/amended to work with the new Intrinsic.

this would hamper Archers a LOT and put them in the unwanted section for sure

Again Z, it's not *archer* specific.

*Everybody* would be in the same boat.

Lower your DD, or not train Initiative. Lower your STR (or HP, or BL, or whatever) or potentially *never* attack.

I'm sure the penalty for Melee is *far* greater than that for Archers... ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2010 3:35 AM EDT

The quick and easy fix for the HoC would be to have it add 1% Initiative per +. ;)

Zenai May 26 2010 9:29 AM EDT

GL: I know it is not Archer Specific. I'm saying Archers would get hit the hardest from a penalty standpoint. In essence we would be training Double just to use our Weapon of choice. Kinda unfair.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 26 2010 9:35 AM EDT

i am not sure how i feel about the idea in general but archery could always give some inherent initiative if it is seen to be hampered too much by the system.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2010 10:23 AM EDT

GL: I know it is not Archer Specific. I'm saying Archers would get hit the hardest from a penalty standpoint. In essence we would be training Double just to use our Weapon of choice. Kinda unfair.

How?

How is it hit more than a BL Tank, that would (instead of having to attack with either standard Ranged penalties, or more severe Ranged in Melee penalties) be unable to attack?

I'm all for refinements to the system as a whole, but it's not useful to claim that archers are the most effected by this, when they aren't.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 26 2010 10:27 AM EDT

familiars would then need innate initiative. would that come at a cost to their other innate abilities...would they need rescaling? if they weren't rescaled then they would become even more powerful as compared to minions with limited xp.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2010 10:37 AM EDT

Very good point. ;)

I'd rebalance them.

But agian, I don't ever see this happeneing as a change to CB2. It's more a thought exercise of how CB could work, without discrete Range and Melee rounds.

Zenai May 26 2010 10:44 AM EDT

GL: Yes Archers would be. They are the only ones in the entire game that has to train a skill to use their weapon of choice. BL Tanks train it because they want to they can still use their weapons without massive penalties. Now train Initiative as well as all the rest of their Intrinsics......the balance would be far more precarious GL. If that Archer makes a mistake between Archery and Initiative then they get a ton of Penalties. Even still if there is no mistake made it is a choice be able to hit first or or stay out of a Archery Penalty. This is a catch 22 for ELB Archers. Because even if they can hit first then they might suffer from Penalties from Archery. And do drastically reduced damage, even if they don't have Penalties from Archery what does it matter if they cannot hit first or to a point even at all. The end result will be the same. Also note most Archers have already had to trade Damage Capacity for HPs....this would cripple them further.

No other Strategy in the game will suffer as much as the ELB Archer and those who train Archery out of necessity.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2010 10:49 AM EDT

They are the only ones in the entire game that has to train a skill to use their weapon of choice.

No, they don't.

And I knew you would say this.

You can use a bow without Archery. Archery just makes it *better*.

Exactly like BL does for Melee...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2010 10:50 AM EDT

No other Strategy in the game will suffer as much as the ELB Archer

Melee losing to Ranged with no backup Ranged wepaon equipped.

Seriosuly, how can you not say that not being able to attack at all isn't the worst penalty?

Zenai May 26 2010 11:43 AM EDT

Um for ELB users no it is not even near the same as BL GL and you know it. BL Tanks do NOT have a massive penalty for using their weapon of choice period. ELB users do end of story.


When used with Archery, you have the chance of hitting in all 5 rounds of ranged combat, that is, 100% Chance-to-Hit (CTH). Without Archery, you have a 20% CTH.


Really all it does is make it a little better GL? Without Archery the ELB is competitvely useless. No other Weapon in the Game is in the same boat and by default no other astrategy is as dependent on a skill.

Zenai May 26 2010 12:13 PM EDT

On the HoC that pretty much defeats it's orginal mechanic and makes it useless.


Overall it is a Good Idea in my book GL it just doesn't account for the ELB user and Archery. If you tweaked it to play nice with ELB users then it would definitely be worth a look.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2010 1:13 PM EDT

Sorry Zen, but your personal bias for Archers is showing through again.

Have you considered that by default 'ranged' damage might be based on not having archery trained? Even when using an ELBow. Much like Melee without BL.

And that when you train archery, or BL, it's a perk to the respective damage type, that lets you perform, better.

When used with Archery, you have the chance of hitting in all 5 rounds of ranged combat, that is, 100% Chance-to-Hit (CTH). Without Archery, you have a 20% CTH.


Lets spin that aorund.

When used with BL, you hit for *double* damage on the first round of comabt, and for 175%! Without BL, you have a massive damage penalty and only hit for 57% of the damage you sohuld be!

And lets not forget, with no UC, a UC tank can't do any damage... There's the one thing in CB that *requires* you to train a skill to use your weapon.

Not archery.

Zenai May 26 2010 6:22 PM EDT


And lets not forget, with no UC, a UC tank can't do any damage... There's the one thing in CB that *requires* you to train a skill to use your weapon.


Wrong UC is NOT a Weapon although it does act like one for calculation purposes (you up the skill and the weapon upgrades with no other costs unlike most you have to do both). As far as it needing a Skill to make it work, yes I digress on that part. You cannot be a UC Minion without training UC otherwise you are just a Melee fighter without a weapon and you do not attack. (This should be changed in my opinion.)



Sorry Zen, but your personal bias for Archers is showing through again.


I believe I stated that in my first post GL but not for Archers. ELB Archers.....it's a bit different.


When used with Archery, you have the chance of hitting in all 5 rounds of ranged combat, that is, 100% Chance-to-Hit (CTH). Without Archery, you have a 20% CTH.

Although you can use your bow during melee combat, you are not efficient doing so (-60% DX and -60% weapon PTH penalty, also only fire every other round), which basically means you have to finish the battle in the first 5 or 6 (ranged) rounds.

So If the ELB User doesn't Train Archery as you have said it is only a perk and they fail Initiative well letメs see what we get.

-80% CTH, -60% PTH, and -60% Dex....huh so basically the ELB Archer would be hung out to dry you cannot hurt what you cannot hit plain and simple. Without Archery the ELB Archer is done for period. MSKer/Other Bow Users, although I agree the added Damage helps, are training Archery for a perk.

Have you considered that by default 'ranged' damage might be based on not having archery trained? Even when using an ELBow. Much like Melee without BL.

Yes I have tried it and I have to say that the results were more than depressing GL. They were deer caught in the headlights eye opening. It was astounding the difference between training Archery and not when using an ELB. It went from competitive professional level to toy bow from the dollar store on the corner level...depressing to say the least.


The thing that would kill ELB Archers with Initiative is the Balance of everything. EXP Dissolution would tear them apart and would show in the long run by them losing more and more often due to penalties incurred with the way you have Initiative's current mechanics set up. Regular Archers train it as a perk and come to rely on the added bonus of everything but like with BL can live without it.
ELB Archers do not have this as an option, train it or fail period that penalty is there for a reason GL, to make the ELB User train Archery.


ELB Users NEED Archery to function.


Other Things on my mind:


i am not sure how i feel about the idea in general but archery could always give some inherent initiative if it is seen to be hampered too much by the system.


now if dudemus' idea were to be put with this then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.



but UC Shouldn't be left out of this either. Also as per what you said UC would get a bad side effect from this too so that should be looked at as well.


Sickone Said: on the other hand, a very high initiative will allow you to hit much harder with your bow while also receiving less damage from enemy archers and mages, and THEORETICALLY allow you to fight up to 50 rounds of ranged damage, never actually engaging in melee (physical, magical, or maybe even ROBF)... that's actually OVERPOWERED :)

This would also be a worry for me as this too is imbalanced. Maybe a Limit on how the Initiative Works and in what rounds?
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