ExBow drain Problem? or Odd Formulas? (in General)


KittehShinobu August 24 2010 2:38 AM EDT

Kano-san Shinobu
Encumbrance
Hit Points 1,080,618 372,000
Strength -1,356,888 -236,932
Dexterity 1,373,201 10,080
Armor Class 111 111
Unarmed Combat 2,640 1,820
Melee Base to-Hit 50 50
Melee Bonus to-Hit 158 109
Total Evasion 119 66
Innate Armor 27 27
Damage Inflicted 0/663,416 28/182,869

Test hit Kano-san [92507]
Kano-san looks weaker!
Kano-san's Guardian Angel smote Test (47745)

Test hit Shinobu [77455]
Shinobu looks weaker!
Shinobu's Guardian Angel smote Test (39469)

Both got hit Just once... but somehow the Familiar gets the short end of this ExBow strike.
Initial Str of the Familiar:894,054
Initial Str of the Minion: 112,500(estimated)

Sickone August 24 2010 2:54 AM EDT

310% drain on minion using your estimated minion STR
251% drain on familiar using actual values

Looks relatively normal, especially since the familiar has more HP.

Sickone August 24 2010 2:55 AM EDT

And before you ask, yes, the EXbow is still beastly overpowered, even after the so-called "fix".

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 24 2010 4:17 AM EDT

The exbow isn't overpowered it is unbalanced. There is a clear difference.

Lochnivar August 24 2010 4:25 AM EDT

Just like the fact that the girl I am dating is engaged, not married.

Clear difference!

(j/k Nat!)

Zenai August 24 2010 6:07 AM EDT

Semantics Nat, it still remains that it needs to be adjusted.

KittehShinobu August 24 2010 10:22 AM EDT

so Prof.Nat, care to lay down the number crunching stats to show the imbalance?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 24 2010 10:27 AM EDT

It now takes me 10 hits to fully drain Nat... how much more adjusting does it need?

AdminTitan August 24 2010 10:44 AM EDT

It has plenty of defenses, it is hardly a sure win with an exbow, I think it is fine.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] August 24 2010 10:45 AM EDT

It now takes me 10 hits to fully drain Nat... how much more adjusting does it need?


And you're surprised? She has the highest hp in the game. IF this bow hits a tank it is overpowered no doubt about it.. But yeah you need to hit them first, which turns into half the battle.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 24 2010 10:53 AM EDT

You're telling me?

I don't hit Zenai 100% of the time in the first two rounds despite having the highest plus of almost any item in the game on my exbow

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 24 2010 12:42 PM EDT

Not to take this off topic, too much! But I'm really curious (And this isn't a nerf/op or 'abuser' call out at all!).

Nov has, without a doubt, the largest EXBow in the game. With a killer setup for using it. And we should expect that specialising like this, would pay off and actually, work. ;) Otherwise, what's the point?

This aside, is there any Tank that Nov *can't* drain to zero in Ranged? (And only using Nov as he has the best EXBow and setup, so is the best example to use) And if so what defense are they using? Personally, I thought Nat has the best non dodging defense to the EXBow out of any charcater, but even this specialised defense doesn't seem to work.

So what does?

Is doding with high DEX and Evasion the better way? Is a massive EC the best way to defend?

Or are we at a state where if you get a 'weapon' of 'abc' size/NW, you should be gauranteed to not have a defense against it, regardless of what that weapon (SG, EXBow, ELBow, RoBF, Morg, Junctioned Jig, whatever) actually is?

I know CB has been about offense over defense for so long, but we still keep trying! :P

(If this is too much off topic, I'll gladly have it moved to it's own thread!)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 24 2010 12:48 PM EDT

Nat could survive to melee with STR intact using a number of options. Zenai who I am designed from the ground up to beat also still wins a fair number of fights because of his DBS.

AdminTitan August 24 2010 12:49 PM EDT

Nat could easily stop nov if he went high AC, he doesn't for other reasons. Nov often doesn't completely drain Zen either. With the insanely high penalties to the exbows cth in the first four rounds it becomes easy to dodge most of the hits, and since we live in a game where anything under 95% win percentage is awful, the exbow becomes increasingly hard to use.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 24 2010 12:49 PM EDT

Does Zen not get drained to zero because of that? Or does he win due to other means?

Basically, is the best defense to the EXBow to dodge it because of the inherant Ranged penalties?

AdminTitan August 24 2010 12:51 PM EDT

He doesn't get drain to zero GL. He has no other offense.

AdminTitan August 24 2010 12:52 PM EDT

Both high AC with HP and DBs work very well, along with PL. PL with DBs works insanely insanely well. B/c then, even with no AC it takes at least two hits on a high evasion minion.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] August 24 2010 12:53 PM EDT

I don't see what all the fuss is about. If you're using an archer setup quit whining because you are losing to the exbow. It's a specialized strategy designed to take you out.

Anyone with more than one damage source can beat them exbow teams. A good example of this is ImmortalAA.

And the best counter I've found to the exbow is the RoBF. If your backed by high AC and ablative shield, even better ;).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 24 2010 1:07 PM EDT

It's a specialized strategy designed to take you out.

Well, not particularily. ;) It takes out BL Tank and Monks just as well as Archers! :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 24 2010 1:08 PM EDT

Still totally in favor of the effects being temporary in some form or fashion... STR regen in melee has always been a good idea in my book.

Zenai August 24 2010 1:26 PM EDT

He doesn't get drain to zero GL. He has no other offense.

True not to zero but to -20 Mil at the least and I have seen up to -43mil in one shot in ranged.

Not whining just correcting a statement.

Nov I think that idea was passed around once already then completely ignored.

AdminTitan August 24 2010 1:31 PM EDT

What about when he doesn't hit you? Still -40M?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 24 2010 1:35 PM EDT

If I don't hit in the first two rounds I'm dead, by the time he's got his bow at 100k it'll be more like if I don't hit in round 1.
I survive to round three against him (with 17m HP and +160ish dbs) once out of a hundred times, he still often triple hits me.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] August 24 2010 1:48 PM EDT

Well, not particularily. ;) It takes out BL Tank and Monks just as well as Archers! :P


No typically those strategies have something else going for them. For example you have the EF and I use the RoBF now.

Zenai August 24 2010 2:21 PM EDT

Titan: I'm not gonna go for the taunt. However more often than not nov hits me and the numbers I gave apply. As far as anything else my only true defense right now is Dex/DB combo. Later I will have more defenses.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 24 2010 2:29 PM EDT

But that's the point Zen, it's not so much a taunt as pointing out that you're not suffering greatly at the hands of the exbow because it has counters.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 24 2010 2:47 PM EDT

No typically those strategies have something else going for them. For example you have the EF and I use the RoBF now.

LoL, true, but not really relevant. ;)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 24 2010 2:51 PM EDT

My experience with the exbow is that it just isn't worth its investment. The amount you invest into the exbow to make it work marginally well could work better invested into something else.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] August 24 2010 3:26 PM EDT

Get rid of that exbow of yours nem and maybe I'll believe you lol;p

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 24 2010 3:58 PM EDT

If you didn't notice I didn't even have it equipped for the past week. This exbow grants me some defensive wins off of zenai and IAA, that's it. It isn't even enough defensive wins to make them drop me from their fightlist as you can see.

KittehShinobu August 24 2010 4:54 PM EDT

ok then I will redirect the attention of the Exbow VS a Monk Tat. The amount of STR drained on the tattoo should be the same for the minion... but it is NOT... so WHY does a single hit on the minion = to about -300k str, when compared with the Tattoo's over 2-3 million str loss? If the calculations were accurate, the tattoo should had lost about 300-400k strength and NOT over 2-3 million strength. T_T

Can someone elaborate on this fact "Specifically"?

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] August 24 2010 4:58 PM EDT

Your one incident is of lesser importance. Back to the persons that really matter.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 24 2010 5:17 PM EDT

Shin, most of the drain done by the exbow is a % drain not a specific number. The amount of direct drain is probably only around 20k the rest was all a %. When that is over 100% then the more strength you have to begin with the farther into negatives you will go. That is why zen sees huge negatives.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 24 2010 5:33 PM EDT

Multiple PL's don't help with EXBow Drain!

I thought they might. But, unless the EXBow kills the PL minion in a single round, next round, the next PL minion (with ntact STR to be drained) isn't targeted, as the original PL minion is still alive (and now with negative STR), so the target gets the full drain...

Bah! :P

Kefeck [BlackSmith] August 24 2010 5:42 PM EDT

Personally I feel the exbow drain should be more based off of strength rather than off of total hp. IMHO.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 24 2010 5:44 PM EDT

I think it is a better choice to make it a trade off between choosing for more security for your str or more str. If it is based of str you would just want to spam more and more str encouraging even more bazooka like behaviors.

AdminTitan August 24 2010 5:56 PM EDT

Kefeck, you'd be effectively removing on of the best counters to the exbow...

Zenai August 24 2010 6:44 PM EDT

But that's the point Zen, it's not so much a taunt as pointing out that you're not suffering greatly hands of the exbow because it has counters.

Um nov you are not on the receiving end of your ExBow. Besides with a roughly 80% Win Ratio I'd say you are not suffering so much either eh? As far as anyone elses ExBow that is why I have so much NW in my DBs for now they ARE my only true defense backed with a TON of Dex.


It isn't even enough defensive wins to make them drop me from their fightlist as you can see.

I just started fighting you again yesterday Nat O.o

When that is over 100% then the more strength you have to begin with the farther into negatives you will go. That is why zen sees huge negatives.

It doesn't take away from the fact that this little mechanism sucks big time. There should be a cutoff point somewhere.

I think it is a better choice to make it a trade off between choosing for more security for your str or more str.

I soooo wish there was something in place that could actually protect my str.

On a related note let's be honest here, the ExBow is not the only stat draining weapon. It has a brother the AxBow. It is only a matter of time before it becomes an issue as well. So both need to be looked at for balancing.

AdminTitan August 24 2010 6:50 PM EDT

Higher another minion, train PL, nov wouldn't touch you.

Zenai August 24 2010 6:57 PM EDT

Although I have entertained the Idea a few times it defeats the purpose of running a Single Minion.
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