Buff to UC? (in General)


Newlin [SeeD] September 8 2010 8:10 PM EDT

UC works great when you junction it over to a jig but if you have a have a UC minion that is training it, it becomes far less powerful. Is there a way we could prevent any trained UC from being junctioned and then give UC a boost? Maybe something like 1.5x its effectiveness? I know it was said before that it was going to be redone or something but it has obviously been awhile :)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 8 2010 8:44 PM EDT

UC is meant to be able to be junctioned over. Also a buff in that form would not solve the problem with UC at all.

Zenai September 8 2010 8:46 PM EDT

Many have asked for something like this and all have either been ignored or denied. :-\

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 8 2010 8:51 PM EDT

Non-single minion mages are in exactly the same boat as your UC minions, as are most tanks, I don't think UC is so special it deserves to be less nerfed than everything else has become.

If someone was willing to go all out with UC and train it like the JKF is capable of training it (because of junctioning UC) they'd be in similar class with a big Jig. I would however like to see UC and light tanks in general being given a boost somehow. Surviving to melee against similarly powered archers is nearly freaking impossible without a Gi or dbs and an exbow.

Newlin [SeeD] September 8 2010 8:52 PM EDT

UC is meant to be able to be junctioned over. Also a buff in that form would not solve the problem with UC at all.

How would it not solve the problem?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 8 2010 8:57 PM EDT

UC still wouldn't work well at all for the upper levels. It would just be a little better for lower and mid levels. The main problem with UC is that the damage is non linear. I have already stated a good way to fix this quite a lot of times. You make the x based on a set amount of levels of UC, and drop the 1.2 modifier to effect for pth. So pth is the effect and I would suggest 1 NW to exp ratio for the weapon x. This would put it around 700 levels of UC per x.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 8 2010 8:59 PM EDT

I believe Nat is talking about UC being a non-linear form of damage. Converting it to the current weapon damage system is a must long term, anything else would be a temporary bandaid.

Newlin [SeeD] September 8 2010 9:02 PM EDT

Ahh gotcha. Wasn't aware it was non-linear.

And I would be all over the GI except a TSA is by far a better option when you have the HP necessary to survive to melee.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2010 9:12 PM EDT

this spreadsheet shows the issue as well as why uc does stand out from other damage models in the game at this time.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhqtN8y13_DadEl1QnlqTDd5ZzhERVRxdjVUeVp1WWc&hl=en

QBOddBird September 8 2010 9:17 PM EDT

Agreed, a change to the UC damage model would be fantastic.

I imagine that the skill would then have to be nerfed, though. Why spend money on a weapon when you can train a skill that does the same thing + Evasion? The Evasive property would merely have to be removed (as training a skill to substitute for your weapon is a pretty decent compromise IMO - it allows you to focus your NW on the ranged weapon and armor items at what amounts to a loss of MPR.)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 8 2010 9:22 PM EDT

If you didn't notice I included a nerf in it. Dropping the pth significantly to offset the increase in weapon x. I think the evasion is still warranted for it as well.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2010 9:23 PM EDT

i don't think so ob. the hal has more strength (twice still?) and much better pth, as well as bth, to make up for the jiggy evasion.

also, putting uc on non-linear damage is taken to mean leave the evasion part on a cost curve basis. the big jigs really don't have that much evasion unless they are junctioning it over.

as i have stated many times, changing uc to non-linear damage really shouldn't boost it at all in the lower levels where it keeps up well but only as that curve goes into place in the upper levels.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 8 2010 9:24 PM EDT

Personally I'd like to see UC use the old CB melee weapon damage. Give it a pseudo NW value and add that as a damage modifier like it used to be. This will make it different from standard weapons, and still capable of being useful if someone wants to run it long term.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2010 9:30 PM EDT

you can see the differences between the hal and jiggy here!

Kefeck [BlackSmith] September 8 2010 11:12 PM EDT

Comparing the hal to the jiggy is like comparing.. Well magic missile to cone of cold hehe.. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2010 11:17 PM EDT

while that is true, they are the only physical damage tats that we have and a pretty good example of how the evasion given with uc balances now as well as how it could still be balanced with a linear rather than non-linear damage curve.

AdminNightStrike September 9 2010 1:52 AM EDT

Personally I'd like to see UC use the old CB melee weapon damage. Give it a pseudo NW value and add that as a damage modifier like it used to be. This will make it different from standard weapons, and still capable of being useful if someone wants to run it long term.

There's already an XP <> NW conversion process, and UC already has a base value to compare it to other weapons. Shouldn't be too hard.

AdminNightStrike September 9 2010 1:53 AM EDT

Also..

Just pointing it out..

a huge bonus with UC is that the "weapon" is ENC-free and PR-free. That means you can use all that space for a ranged weapon.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2010 2:32 AM EDT

ah but NS if you train UC that means you can't run a bow weapon cause you can't train archery (you can use a bow but you nerf yourself by doing so) so your dmg will never be as high as a pure archer.
Secondly if you are able to devote that much money to a good ranged weapon, its quite possible that the ranged weapon will do more dmg, therefore training UC lowering your dmg.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 3:32 AM EDT

a huge bonus with UC is that the "weapon" is ENC-free and PR-free. That means you can use all that space for a ranged weapon.

It' snot exactly PR free. ;) UC loses the 'free' X PR, (as your PR increases when you train the skill. It does get all it's '+' PR for free, unlike Weapons. ;)

But the linear damage model is a far bigger penalty.

There are other penalties to UC not being a weapon I posted about a while ago. You are unable to boost it higher than your current size due to not being able to spend cash to up it (Which makes ENC a non issue anyway). You can't name your UC weapon (even though you could name your HG/Gi, it's not quite like getting the 3% PTH boost). You can't gain any of the extra Weapon based benefits (like VA, 2x AS Damage, Vorpal).

But hopefully a new Supporter item could fix this! :P

As for training it like a Jig, It's possible. But it requires you to use a ToA to have any hope of matching the Jigs intrinsics, while still retaining similar HP and post Junction UC effect.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 3:34 AM EDT

Edit: And lack of being able to use BL as well...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 11:32 AM EDT

As for training it like a Jig, It's possible. But it requires you to use a ToA to have any hope of matching the Jigs intrinsics, while still retaining similar HP and post Junction UC effect.

As an addition to this, it's really the AoF that makes this possible. So you would be more vulnerable to EC than a Jig.

But using a Gi+EC instead of a ToA doesn't work. You can't get a comparable post junction UC effect, and match the Jigs HP/STR/DEX (Assuming the Junction minion is of the same minion count, and trains 100% of thier XP into UC)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 11:36 AM EDT

instead of junction bringing over the "effect" it would fix much of the issue of jiggy junctions to have the xp come over like every other aspect of cb.

so in my mind, make uc linear damage wise but leave the evasion on a curve and change junction to xp stacking and we are golden!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 11:58 AM EDT

Heh, I did the work a while ago, but never bothered posting or saving it. So gonna do it again. ;)

Minions

Assume the Junction Minion is of the same minion count and size as the UC minion. Assume tattoo's are being used at MTL (33% of minion size).

Items

Both get to use HoE, and EB. so these can be ignored. The Minion will get the Benefit of an AoF (+10) and Either a Gi+EC (+13) or ToA. HG will be ignored for the minion, but double dips for the Jig, so in the end the Jig will get +23 to UC (from a +15 HG).

Jig

HP: 0.5 * 0.33 = 0.165 = 16.5%
ST: 0.25 * 0.33 = 0.0825 = 8.25%
DX: 0.5 * 0.33 = 0.165 = 16.5%
UC: (0.5 * 0.33) + 1 = 1.165 = 116.5%

Minion with Gi + EC

The minion will try to match the Intrinsics of the Jig

HP: 16.5%
ST: 8.25%
DX: 14.6 * 1.13 = 16.5%
UC: 60.65 * 1.13 * 1.3 = 89%

Close, but no cigar. The Jig also has +13 UC levels over the Minion, after XP has been spent.

Minion with ToA

HP: 16.5
ST: 0.5 * 0.33 = 0.165 = 16.5%
DX: 0.33 * 0.33 = 0.1089 = 10.89%
UC: 83.5 * 1.3 = 108.55%

So quite similar. But

Conclusion

I think originally, I left out the double dipping of the HG for the Jig. :(

Even with a ToA, while the stat distribution is similar (ST and DX swap places), and the extra PTH the ToA gives (which doesn't stack well with UC), the Jig *still* has +23 UC levels over the minion after all is said and done.

Looking at this now, I don't think there's any way a UC minion can compete with a Junctioned Familiar.

And that's sad. :(

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 9 2010 12:01 PM EDT

Dude, UC junction already junctions over the xp stack. When it first started junctioning it junctioned the effect and it was way too powerful so this was changed.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 9 2010 12:06 PM EDT

I think originally, I left out the double dipping of the HG for the Jig. :(

The jig hasn't double dipped with the HG in about 2 years now. I was the one who tested to make sure this was fixed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 12:07 PM EDT

does evasion work that was as well?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 1:22 PM EDT

The jig hasn't double dipped with the HG in about 2 years now. I was the one who tested to make sure this was fixed.

Ah, cool.

Then things are a lot closer. ;)

AdminNightStrike September 9 2010 1:30 PM EDT

GL - rerun your numbers using post-junction-fix values.

I believe that was one of my first big changelogs. I did a lot of work in junction, leaving only BL as the red-headed stepchild.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 2:36 PM EDT

The numbers don.t change mate. Unless i.te missed anything! Just the jig won.t get an extra 23 from the hg.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 6:13 PM EDT

well then the biggest advantage i see now for the junctioned jigs is the fact that high level equipment can be worn that will encumber the minion but the stats come over without encumbering the jiggy.

is that the same way for the hal and the magical damage minions though?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 6:56 PM EDT

Yup.
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