CB isn't about strategy, it is about size (in General)


moskel October 23 2010 6:11 PM EDT

I took some time today to look at my fight list and the list of folks attacking me from the discussions going on about ways to make the game more competitive. Right now the game isn't about strategy, it is about bigger or smaller.

Of all of the folks attacking me, only 2 of them are smaller and they're both within 10% of me on MPR. Of the folks I attack, I'm only smaller than one of them.

The link below is to a Google Spreadsheet that is color coded: Red = Attacked me in the past 24 hours, Black = Me, Green = On my fight list

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArLh0XU6SrModF9va09BbUV0YzQwV3dvWnd0U0ZsZVE&hl=en&authkey=CLOI9OgD

If all of a sudden we all had equal MPR and PR (i.e. unlimited CBD to max out ENC) we would actually have a strategy game. Until then to me it looks like we just have a grind fest.

So I ask, is this unique to me or for others is this what your list of attackers and victims looks like as well?

Lets figure out a way to encourage and reward people for effort but we also need to look at a way to reward strategy more as well.

QBOddBird October 23 2010 6:24 PM EDT

My PR / MPR : 2,891,226 / 2,032,861

My fightlist:

Xanthan: Power 5,400,122 MPR 3,999,281
The Legion: Power 3,256,747 MPR 2,226,658
GoldenWarrior: Power 3,249,914 MPR 2,232,218
1010011010: Power 4,269,425 MPR 2,968,568
Trachal DelArmgo: Power 3,935,331 MPR 2,516,634
Death-Note: Power 4,717,737 MPR 3,833,759

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 23 2010 6:28 PM EDT

My fight list has 3 above my PR and 4 below.

QBJohnnywas October 23 2010 6:40 PM EDT

I'm 4.7 mill MPR, my biggest opponent is probably NWO off the top of my head, over 6 mill in MPR.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] October 23 2010 6:40 PM EDT

You sure it is not a testament that maybe your strategy isn't working? People I fight are generally way higher than me.

Demigod October 23 2010 6:40 PM EDT

The vast majority of my attackers are above me, with a few exceptions. I noticed that the smallest guy wins via crossbow, but that is a strategy item, even if a unbalanced.

M. Hand October 23 2010 6:40 PM EDT

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strategy component is used to beat people higher than you... But training to defeat certain builds leave you open for others.

moskel October 23 2010 6:45 PM EDT

PP, you've done a good job of finding a few targets above you though most are not active in a clan, this is good for your NCB but not super effective afterwards.

Nat, everyone on your fight list and everyone attacking you is within 10% of your PR. You're at the competitive level of the game where strategy does matter -- almost everyone else is not.

Godpanda October 23 2010 6:46 PM EDT

Okay, I did a bit (A BIT) of research on this before I posted.

First off, OB makes a point, if one I don't entirely agree with. Strategy can certainly trump MPR, especially at lower MPRs. You can't deny that.

But we can argue all day about how "strategic" it really is to pop an exbow on something and farm characters with no forms of damage other than physical. His team's strategy is to farm single minions. You can still farm up at that MPR. That team won't have anything above it to farm at 4.5 mil MPR.

I looked at Nat's list too. Honestly, of the fightlist Nat is running, only one is significantly above her in MPR. And it's really a case of Nat's strategy countering Anubis. But that's still only one.

And then I looked at my fightlist. Only one person significantly larger than me, one even, and the rest quite a bit lower than me. But I'm running a lower NW strategy, so perhaps it's skewed a bit.

I'd honestly like to see where more people's MPR vs MPR levels are, especially above 3 mil MPR or so.

Honestly, I think the strategy a person choose's is very important still. But I also think, to a large degree, that strategy to a more refined level is lacking. You get plenty of "My overall strategy hardcounters X other strategy" as in Exbow beats tank and RoBF beats GA.

I think the issue isn't in the strategy, more in the differences in MPR. Until you're above 4 mil MPR, you're not in a position where tinkering matters. You're growing too fast. And once you're there, a lot of players immediately start over with a new NCB.

NCBs certainly don't get to indulge in more intricate strategies. Especially as many players are cutting down on minions for high run NCBs.

QBOddBird October 23 2010 6:49 PM EDT

But we can argue all day about how "strategic" it really is to pop an exbow on something and farm characters with no forms of damage other than physical. His team's strategy is to farm single minions. You can still farm up at that MPR. That team won't have anything above it to farm at 4.5 mil MPR.


BTW, I can still maintain 100% challenge bonus without the Exbow.

But equipping it allows me a larger fightlist than 3-4.

horseguy001 October 23 2010 6:51 PM EDT

Exbow's do have a long list of counters. I'm assuming when I catch up I won't have too much trouble beating his team...unless he switches to a SoD :)

Sickone October 23 2010 6:53 PM EDT

You sure it is not a testament that maybe your strategy isn't working? People I fight are generally way higher than me.

Wait until January when your NCB is over, your current situation is too transitional ;)

...

For me, this is how things stand... attacking 0/15 higher in MPR (I can double-tap some higher, or can win extremely unreliably so there's no point); attacked by - 13/17 strictly higher in MPR (would be 16/17 if I would include people very close to my MPR), there's only 1 person NOTICEABLY lower in MPR (-33% of my MPR) that attacks me, and he has a JKF strategy with junctioned UC (vs my archer).

moskel October 23 2010 6:55 PM EDT

EOD: You're running a 3 person fight list on a NCB, saying you can "maintain a fight list of people much larger than you" is well, not what many people would consider a list.

For those talking about my strategy, if it is flawed why are no players significantly smaller than me able to defeat me? The Outlier and Beyond the Wheel are both near my size.

Sickone October 23 2010 6:56 PM EDT

P.S. Correction, it's not -33%, it's only -27% of my MPR.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 23 2010 8:03 PM EDT

Out of my fight list of 14, 2 players are 500k-1mil higher in MPR, 4 are between 0 and 300k lower in MPR, and the others are significantly lower.

Of those who fight me regularly and win, I have one person lower than me, i have one person equal with me, i have you, and you are 300k higher in MPR.
Then i have another 15 or so between 500k and 3mil more MPR than me.

The one who is lower uses DM, the one who is equal uses a RoS based tank team (go Lord Bob :D). There is strategy in this game, but size does matter a lot. Especially if you are not based around hard counters.

Zenai October 23 2010 8:18 PM EDT

No offense intended but having the biggest, nastiest whatever team is indeed a strategy in and of itself. A Simple Concept true, not much of a goal but to get big but still a Strategy. If others cannot or will not put forth the effort to match you and are unable to beat you then your "I'm Bigger Than You!" Strategy is a success.

lel October 23 2010 8:22 PM EDT

Back when I owned Conquerer Okay with around 4.1m MPR, I had at least 15 people on my list that had at least 20% more MPR than I died.

Even now, almost all of my fightlist has a larger MPR than me. Strategy determines your fightlist a lot more than MPR does.

horseguy001 October 23 2010 8:36 PM EDT

I think it's more the tattoo that determines anything. My mpr is 75% my mtl right now, makes it very hard to get any kind of a good bonus. Some one with 1.8 mil mpr is at ~45% there mtl.

Godpanda October 23 2010 8:43 PM EDT

Firstly, to Zenai being the biggest isn't strategy. That's like saying "Winning is a strategy." It's not. It's a goal. Ask any real strategy game player. Knowning how to manage your army is as if not more important than the size.

But, on the same note, size still does matter. There's a reason all professional fighting sports (At least the professional ones) have weight divisions. No amount of skill will make your arms 6 inches longer and add 75 pounds of muscle to you. And while, yes, a smaller fighter can beat a bigger one, it's not easy. Or expected.


I think the reward of strategy is winning. Simple as that. The issue we have is that we have too many weight divisions and not enough fighters.

I'd like to see a rolling bonus that archs instead of moves linearly. Have MPRs shoot up to, say, 30% of top MPR. And above that slow way down. Force NUBs and NCBs to duke it out. Then have it slowly ramp up after that, shooting them to the next level around 60%. Then 90% and let people fight for the top from there.

This would, I think, make the game a bit more fun and yet competitive.

QBOddBird October 23 2010 8:48 PM EDT

But, on the same note, size still does matter.

Damn straight.

;D

Sickone October 23 2010 8:49 PM EDT

having the biggest, nastiest whatever team is indeed a strategy in and of itself

No. That's just brute force.
And right now, it's THE most important factor in all of 6/20.
The only places where strategy still plays a significant role ? The middle of 7/20 and below that.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 23 2010 8:50 PM EDT

You're funny Sickone.

Solare October 23 2010 9:19 PM EDT

Strategy matters more than MPR, but tattoos are a different story...

Zenai October 23 2010 9:38 PM EDT

Sickone/GW: I did not say it was intricate, strategy doesn't HAVE to be just that. It can be incredibly simple, sometimes simple is best. Like having the biggest, nastiest whatever....call it the Mongo Smash or Brute Force Strategy if you want but the most basic components of Strategy STILL apply. It is still a goal tha takes some thought in order to reach.

Most attempt to blindside everything by saying or being big is not a strategy......oh really? Well now if you have to plan this "Biggness" to be proportionate for what you are looking to overcome then that is indeed a Strategy. Note I'm not saying All Strength, Dex or HP etc I'm saying proportionately Big for what you are attempting to achieve.

Is this not what we do on a regular basis with just about everything in CB anyway? My GA/HP is X to overcome such and such's Weapon Damage. Or My DM is X to trump such and such's AS etc etc. MPR on an overall is no true exception......If all of what I have is to big for you to overcome then I have done my job and my Strategy has succeeded. In every single case I have seen getting bigger proportionately for what you are looking to achieve is key to success.....ie MPR.

QBOddBird October 23 2010 9:53 PM EDT

It is still a goal tha takes some thought in order to reach.

Are you saying that being bigger is a strategy, Zenai, or that the attempt to grow larger than your opponent is a strategy? One is true, and one is false.

Zenai October 23 2010 10:02 PM EDT

I'm saying being bigger than my opponent in the proper areas is strategy. It does boil down to "I'm Bigger than You!" MPRwise(in many cases) Yes but being bigger in the right places is what counts.

However you can look at it like this: If I am too big to be defeated and can maintain it then that is a strategy too. Remember Todd/Spydah? Their whole Strategy was to be too big to be beaten......and they did it.

QBOddBird October 23 2010 10:04 PM EDT

Agh, you just subdivided it more.

Now the question is divided between

Is being big a strategy?

and

Is applying bigness to the appropriate attributes a strategy?

But simply "having more" is not a strategy. It is a state of being.

Zenai October 23 2010 10:19 PM EDT

It's all perspective OB. Boil it all down yes Being big CAN be a strategy. My only stipulation has has been as long as it is proportionate.

I could have all HP and have a ton more MPR than my opponent does this entitle a win? No

But let's say I have a ton of HP but almost as much GA at the same MPR can this ensure me a win....it very well could against many different opponents.

Being Big can be a Strategy it just has to be done right.

QBOddBird October 23 2010 10:23 PM EDT

I could have all HP and have a ton more MPR than my opponent does this entitle a win? No

But let's say I have a ton of HP but almost as much GA at the same MPR can this ensure me a win....it very well could against many different opponents.


But the difference between the two is where you placed your attributes. That is the strategy of it, not the mere "bigness" of having the stats. As you so finely showed, merely being "big" is not necessarily enough to gain any sort of advantage.

It's like saying possessing any given attribute is a strategy.

Godpanda October 23 2010 10:26 PM EDT

Being big isn't a strategy. He already said it. It's a state of being. You don't pop into the game as big. It takes something to get you big, but you're acting like it's just a button you can push.

So either you're saying that growing faster to be larger than your opponents is your strategy (Which isn't how you've said it)

Or you're not making any sense.

moskel October 23 2010 11:27 PM EDT

This next test should also point out some of the issues. I'm 50th in PR in the game. From my PR the next closest person larger than me in a clan (that isn't mine) is 114.48% of my PR and I can defeat them. I have 3 possible targets within 20% of my PR larger than me. We need more players or we need to be more closely grouped together to have "real competition".

Look how big of a variance we have in the top 50 overall (delta from my PR):

0-10% delta: 8
10-20% delta: 7
20-30% delta: 10

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArLh0XU6SrModHNGVFBzQklEWnRZTW8tbUFRZFB6ZHc&hl=en&authkey=COL4htUE

How much of a delta is strategy expected to overcome? How many of you 15% smaller than me can use strategy to overcome the advantage I have of being bigger?

Zenai October 24 2010 12:02 AM EDT

Back to Back 16 Hour Shifts with 9, 10 hour shifts before it....I'm a bit tired.

Being Big can be a Strategy IF it is Proportionate. I believe I gave an example already. To build on this (and I hope I'll make sense with it.) In any one stat it is not a strategy but in several things it can be. Trying to say it is a state of being would only apply if it was purely in one stat, that is not what I am saying.

MPR is MPR as ALL Stats combined equal just that...MPR. If you look at it from this stanpoint then you will see that being big is indeed a Strategy as ALL Strategies Require you to be a certain size in order to function against certain opponents. In this respect the size may not be enough for certain opponents and require you to be Bigger to succeed. Being big is then the Strategy and the proportiante training the basis and key to it's success. Ie My Strategy was GA/HP. But it is not Big enough to overcome X player....now my strategy is to get Big inside Y guidelines in order to achieve my desired effect..

In this perspective if you are setting the goal to be too big to be beaten ala Todd/Spydah then that is STILL a Strategy. However for this strategy to work it still has to be proportionate ie not all HP is the key. However overall size IS the general idea.

At least this is how I see it and I have been told that I see things in a different light than others. If this makes sense to you then great if not eh sorry but I'm just too tired to try and explain it again please disregard it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 24 2010 12:10 AM EDT

let's say then that you have team a and team b with the exact same setup. team b is exactly fifty percent bigger in everything including stats, nw and tat size. if team b can beat more people than team a is it due to strategy or size?

Zenai October 24 2010 12:25 AM EDT

Dudemus: I said it before I'll say it again look at Todd/Spydah they were what 1 Mil MPR bigger than everyone else? You think that was happenstance? No that was purely by design, not a goal but a Strategic Plan and Execution. They wanted to be too Big to beat, and is why I have used it as a reference. Their MPR was the determining factor in achieving their goal....that makes it a Strategy. A Brute Force one yes but still a Strategy.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 24 2010 3:31 AM EDT

Dudemus, you haven't identified all the parameters. Surely somewhere there should be something referring to challenge bonus, cause the smaller team will never be able to beat more people than an identical but larger team however it could beat more for a positive bonus.

lostling October 24 2010 4:17 AM EDT

well pretty much everyone who wins me is bigger then me... aside from one which is pretty much equal to me

Ancient Anubis October 24 2010 7:54 AM EDT

don't know what the big argument is but i got to my mpr through hard work and continual fighting is that not my reward for my efforts. The reward for a good strategy is being able to achieve a high challenge bonus and defeat those larger in size.

moskel October 24 2010 10:56 AM EDT

So it sounds like the summary is....

1. The overall strategy of CB is to grow effectively so you can be bigger

2. Your build strategy can help your growth rate if you find opponents significantly above you with a weakness

3. No matter what your build strategy is somebody with a significantly higher MPR/PR will defeat you

One thing that concerns me is with no way for new players to catch up you'll end up with a smaller and smaller game until it dies.

As far as some of the elitist attitude of me just not knowing what I'm doing, maybe I didn't grow as effectively as I could have and that is my fault for not understanding what the goal of this game really was.

For the build strategy I think I've figured that out at least better than average. I'm at, at the time of the post, 38th in Score, 50th in PR, 64th in MPR and my Tattoo is at best 50th (I can't see the value of #11+ RoS and RoBF but from the value of #10 on both I'd bet at least a few are larger than my 7.2M).

QBOddBird October 24 2010 11:05 AM EDT

One thing that concerns me is with no way for new players to catch up you'll end up with a smaller and smaller game until it dies.

Hence the NUB, faulty though it may be. That's why CB2 exists.


I don't think anyone was accusing you of not knowing what you are doing. At least, I don't see any posts like that in this thread.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 October 24 2010 11:12 AM EDT

Every person on my list with one exception is higher MPR than I am. Some by marginal amounts, and some by pretty significant amounts.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 24 2010 11:19 AM EDT

To be honest though mate, that's to be expected as you've broke the game! :P

/hugz

King October 25 2010 12:43 AM EDT

In my opinion CB is partially about size, balanced games usually mean size is a factor. If you're running a balanced strategy and not spending a large amount of USD on CBD it's only right. Most folks (I'd believe anyways.) try to make it so that if nothing else the people below them can't farm them.

There have been 'broken' strategies before (Evasion + RoBF pre-change, EC cannon with a Jig/RoBF recently, I'm sure there were a few in between I've missed.) and hey they were able to fight way above their MPR! On the downside people way below their MPR using something simple (A DD using minion for example) could farm them and suddenly you've got score dead zones and folks complaining about the 'abusive' strategies.

I'd also also prefer to think pretty much every RPG with balanced PVP is probably the same way, sure you can't beat someone 1M MPR above you but they probably can't beat someone 1M MPR above themselves and I know for a fact most folks would complain if someone half their size could effectively farm them, fight exp with a smaller amount of exp and if it's balanced, you'll lose.

I have to agree the 'Mongo smash' isn't a strategy if you're looking at the MPR side of things, it's more of a convenience. It can be if you flip it to mean NW though, encumbrance is only a limiting factor on smaller, multi-minion teams.(King supports 'Tank Blender'.)

And yes I'm aware of how often I used the word balanced, sue me it's 12:30 on a Monday morning.

My fight list used to be 4 out of 6 where larger than me(even if it was only by 100-400k mpr) but since on of my targets quit it's down to 3 out of 8.

The major thing I get from this post is you're looking at people farming down, to me that's more a problem of 6/20 not getting negative challenge bonuses and the fact that some folks actively killed their scores by fighting a few stalemates at the end of each set of BA forcing the 6M score area to be a stand still until/if you ever manage to catch up and beat any of the folks above 7M score without being farmed back down.
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