exbow counter? (in General)


AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] November 14 2010 11:01 PM EST

new item

Berserker Helm

.5% str regen per +

lostling November 14 2010 11:04 PM EST

capped at max original str =x

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 14 2010 11:05 PM EST

you corrupted it entirely Tal >.<

What I said was this:

Beserker Helm

Takes a % of damage taken and adds it to str. .5% per +

Invader Sye November 14 2010 11:23 PM EST

i like this :D reminds me of dota xD Huskar and his skill that lets him attack faster and deal more base damage for every 7% of life he is missing :D i think they cap it at a max for 49% missing health.

Demigod November 14 2010 11:28 PM EST

I know it was your intent, but I'll just go ahead and state that it would negate the archer's all but required HoC.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 14 2010 11:31 PM EST

It would be a choice then.

Zenai November 14 2010 11:33 PM EST

I would DESTROY with that helm!

QBOddBird November 14 2010 11:33 PM EST

Aye, it wouldn't negate, but rather offer up an option. Right now, the archer's *only* choice is the HoC.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 14 2010 11:34 PM EST

Believe it or not zen, but this helm would be near useless for you.

Zenai November 14 2010 11:41 PM EST

Nat: GA

Gunny Pew Pew [Red Permanent Assurance] November 14 2010 11:48 PM EST

Edit the HoE instead of making a new helm for the same stat.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 14 2010 11:49 PM EST

No, the HoE is fundamentally different. They would both have their place.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 1:34 AM EST

Nat's idea is good.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 4:40 AM EST

Make it not work on PLed damage and we're golden.

It would stuck to become the next SoC, where you can buff yourself with free extra damage, and remain unharmed, by having PL take it all away (and then be regenerated by the TSA...).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 6:43 AM EST

Some questions.

Does it take negative strength into account?

Does it increase strengh before or after exbow reduction?

In relation to damage done, will it regenerate more or less per hit than an exbow. (On average)

miteke [Superheros] November 15 2010 7:07 AM EST

This is not really a counter. An ExBow completely drains all the opponents strength in one round for those with about a 60K NW ExBow. That means the poor guy won't be doing any damage. And THAT means he won't be getting any strength added unless you stick to the original proposal that lost strength is regenerated.

If you did this AND fixed ExBow to drain based on damage instead of percentage it could be a good counter.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] November 15 2010 7:24 AM EST

Miteke, I feel inclined to reply that you need a really big ExBow to do really big drains, not 60k as you've over-exaggerated. And I believe it already is proportional to the damage you do, at least it says so according to the wiki.

AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] November 15 2010 8:12 AM EST

miteke: not damage dealt... damage TAKEN

Phoenix [The Forgehood] November 15 2010 9:13 AM EST

What about an item that protects .5% of your strength (trained and casted) per +? Nat's berserk helm seems useless unless the majority of damage is taken past ranged where the Exbow can't drain str.

Gunny Pew Pew [Red Permanent Assurance] November 15 2010 9:37 AM EST

We got too many hats and not enough cloaks. Besides that fact, is there a Tolkien equivalent of this enhancement?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2010 10:14 AM EST

i think my problem with any xbow counter is that the xbow itself is supposedly a counter to extreme usd boosted weapons and therefore giving an item that you can the overcome the usd counter with more usd totally defeats the initial purpose of the exbow. you might as well just delete it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2010 10:17 AM EST

i would rather see any counter as a skill, maybe one that still gives pth like archery but at a lesser amount and then somehow protects strength as well. make it truly a difficult choice instead of more usd wars! ; )

Demigod November 15 2010 10:40 AM EST

That's actually not a bad idea, but I still want a new item.

Godpanda November 15 2010 11:38 AM EST

Sorry, it's a good idea. But the only thought I'm having overwhelmingly right now is:

"Great. Tanks get more choices and mages are staying the same. Again. And again and again and again."

This would put tanks at three helms and mages at one! Sounds BALANCED. Sounds like CHOICE to me.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 11:48 AM EST

The point of the helm is to give melee tanks a chance... Archers wouldn't likely be any better off with this than they are now.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 12:17 PM EST

Why not Nov?

This is a counter Exbow item, and the Exbow is the only thing stopping Zen atm.

I'm leaning to agree with Zen that this would make him almost unstoppable, and be the far better option over a HoE or HoC for any Archer.

Zenai November 15 2010 12:19 PM EST

Nov yes archers would because of GA. It would be the first Item to actually return GA Damage unless coded otherwise.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 15 2010 12:36 PM EST

if the idea was to help melee tanks instead of archers, then using it as a skill would work, no? make it add no pth then and have it protect strength by some mechanism.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 1:03 PM EST

Dude, if that's the aim, change Bloodlust.

Instead of giving you that x2 hit, have BL add an amount of damage taken to your STR.

Counter to the EXBow for Melee Tanks, that Archers can't take advantage of.

But still make sure it doesn't work (like GA) from PLed damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 1:05 PM EST

Also, the berzerking side of things fits nicely with 'Bloodlust', while I never undersottd the x2 hit, seeing it as nothing more than an arbitrary buff.

Keep the passive increased damage of course.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 1:08 PM EST

Yeah, I don't know about Nat's opinion since it's her idea but I can't see it working on retributive damage like GA.

The exbow would certainly still be a counter, the minuscule amount of str added from the exbow hits wouldn't be enough to bring Zen's str to dangerous levels in ranged.

Zenai November 15 2010 1:13 PM EST

With a minor tweak to my strat yes it would nov. At least enough to make ExBow/GA users to SM with me or have a low enough win % against me to make it not worth attacking me.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 1:24 PM EST

don't be vague here Zen... we're looking for a new item

"a minor tweak" should be at least a little better explained

QBOddBird November 15 2010 2:16 PM EST

GW - then start making mage helmet suggestion threads

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2010 2:22 PM EST

When did we decide the exbow needed a counter?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 2:24 PM EST

It's not that the ex needs a counter so much as it's Melee tanks need some help.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2010 2:44 PM EST

Do Melee tanks really need help though?

When was the last time you've seen an NCB start from day 1 designed to be a melee tank. It just doesn't happen.

What's happening these days is super large archers are equipping melee weapons and are completely flabbergasted that they hardly go past round 6-7, and when they do they die right away.

QBOddBird November 15 2010 2:47 PM EST

When was the last time you've seen an NCB start from day 1 designed to be a melee tank. It just doesn't happen.

Dude, I've been on your fightlist and you've been on mine for how many months? My NCB was a melee tank the entire time, and the new character I've recently purchased is one.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 2:48 PM EST

The melee tank is an unfortunate casualty of the war on the big ELB.
This would give folks an option to grow back some STR in later rounds assuming they live that long.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2010 2:54 PM EST

OB

I guess I stand corrected. Although is a single minion really the best way to play a melee tank? I highly doubt it..

(You were around 700k mpr lower then me, and you still were winning every now and again). I'd say you did very well on your run. I guess the real comparison is against the uber large Elven long bows up at the top though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 3:06 PM EST

This would give folks an option to grow back some STR in later rounds assuming they live that long.

Unless you're also facing an EXbow in addition to the mega archer, how would this item ever help?

If you live to Melee, you beat the Archer anyway, as they can't hit and do soevery two orunds, while you ail away and regen with VA.

This new item won't help Melee live to Archers...

QBOddBird November 15 2010 3:09 PM EST

Although is a single minion really the best way to play a melee tank? I highly doubt it..

No, I think 2 minions is, so that you can take advantage of a tattoo.

But I really like single minions. :D and I think the tatless single minion tank is the most versatile.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 3:09 PM EST

No, that's the exbows job, this is supposed to help melee tanks fight back against the exbow.

miteke [Superheros] November 15 2010 3:23 PM EST

>Miteke, I feel inclined to reply that you need a really big ExBow to >do really big drains, not 60k as you've over-exaggerated. And I >believe it already is proportional to the damage you do, at least it >says so according to the wiki.

I meant 60m. I think the magic spot is somewhere between 3600x and 4000x.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] November 15 2010 3:28 PM EST

An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x2584] (+100)

It really depends on the targets hp, but this works against most.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 3:33 PM EST

No, that's the exbows job, this is supposed to help melee tanks fight back against the exbow.

Change Bloodlust then.

Otherwise Archers will abuse this to become immune to the EXBow as well.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 3:38 PM EST

How? The damage the exbow does will hardly be enough to ramp up the archers str...

Zenai November 15 2010 3:42 PM EST

GL: Archers would not be immune but abuse of this item could negate the functionality of the ExBow in a round-a-bout way in the form of SM, Draws or lesser win % on an overall.

Nov: I could pump uf my stremgth boosting items, pour on more HPs, add AC, pump up my ELB more, This is why I said a minor tweak it is indeed vague because it encompasses a lot of different avenues. In fact more could be added for other archer teams as few are SM teams.

QBOddBird November 15 2010 3:43 PM EST

I'm confused about how that is the case too. The Exbow continues firing in ranged rounds, so if an Archer does manage to take enough damage to regain ST, he'll lose it again with the next Exbow hit. It's only in melee that they'll really be able to regain a decent sum of ST.

Zenai November 15 2010 3:44 PM EST

Nov noone uses the ExBow alone for the same reason you state. All they have to do is survive and then it's pain city because enough str is regened to do significant damage.

Zenai November 15 2010 3:48 PM EST

Make it applicable for Melee only damage during Melee Round and we'll have a winner

MissingNo [Battle Royale] November 15 2010 3:50 PM EST

Let's follow the causal chain and see what the real problem is.

OK, so let's just say the ExBow is overpowered. Why is the ExBow necessary? Because it's one of the few ways to defend against a large archer. Why does there need to be a way to defend against large archers? Because large archers (especially single minion archers) are widely popular. Why are they so popular? Because ranged weapons are so strong.

To me, the real root of the problem is that archers can become way too powerful and so one of the most viable options of dealing with this (there are only really 2: ExBow and GA), making it almost a necessity.

If you think the ExBow is particularly unfair to melee tanks, well, then it would make sense to first make ranged weaker, then peel the back ExBow accordingly. That's why I am in full support of a skill that mitigates STR loss from the ExBow but the trade-off is that you can't train archery, and presumably you would have less innate stats because of the exp you'd need to pump into the skill.

QBOddBird November 15 2010 4:00 PM EST

None of that is necessary. This item would not be helpful vs the Exbow during ranged rounds. Period. How difficult is that to understand?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 4:26 PM EST

How? The damage the exbow does will hardly be enough to ramp up the archers str...

Then the damage the EXBow does will hardly be enough to ramp up a Mele Tanks STR...

Same thing apllies.

Either the regen is worth it, in which case it'll be worth it for an Archer, or it won't.

Imagine a team that has an EXBow and a Tank versus Zen. The EXbow is large enough to drain Zen's STR to zero. The Tank hitting him would give him the STR back to nuke with his bow.

That's the issue.

Phoenix [The Forgehood] November 15 2010 4:26 PM EST

Hence a new item would be better off protecting a certain % of str from drain, though how not to let archers abuse this..

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 4:26 PM EST

None of that is necessary. This item would not be helpful vs the Exbow during ranged rounds. Period. How difficult is that to understand?

Then it won't help during Melee either...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 4:27 PM EST

Hence a new item would be better off protecting a certain % of str from drain, though how not to let archers abuse this..

Change BL.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 4:31 PM EST

So yes, in that random scenario where someone is running a dual tank team the helm would be beneficial... but dear lord that's a silly unlikely reason to ditch what is otherwise a really good solution to the problem.

QBOddBird November 15 2010 4:31 PM EST

Then it won't help during Melee either...

Explain. Here, I'll explain why I said that:

During ranged, if this item regenerates the strength lost via Exbow hits, the Exbow will simply hit the minion again and drain it back out. It cannot help.

During melee, Exbows aren't firing unless there's something wacky going on. The minion can continue to regenerate strength and thus regain the fighting power the Exbow removed.


So please explain your statement, as it appears to be that and nothing more

QBOddBird November 15 2010 4:33 PM EST

How? The damage the exbow does will hardly be enough to ramp up the archers str...

Then the damage the EXBow does will hardly be enough to ramp up a Mele Tanks STR...


This is so silly, ranged lasts for 6 rounds, there are 44 left after that.

Phoenix [The Forgehood] November 15 2010 4:36 PM EST

I think the problem is the speed of the regen; a faster regen would require less rounds to get back the str, whereas a lower regen would take longer. This, of course, means that it's useless unless melee drags on for several rounds.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 4:41 PM EST

It's not regen... it's damage taken.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 4:44 PM EST

OB, this is how it works. Ingore anything else on the team apart from an EXBow versus a Tank/Archer wearing one of these helms.

The EXBow hits and drains some STR.

Now, we get into my earlier question about order, and negative STR.

Let's assume the EXBow drians you to -2M STR. In one round.

How much does the Helm restore? 2M? Enough to take you to full? let's you have 50% left?

Whatever the amount is, it's academic. All it grants you is the ability to land an attack at the STR you have left.

Becuase next round, the same EXBow takes exactly the same amount away.

Every round.

Including Melee, as you now stick your EXBow on someone without a Melee wepaon, so it continues to drain every round.

So, the regen let's you have some STR back, for your attack that round. Either, it's little enough to have no effect, and no one uses the Helm. Or it's large enough to let you deal some significant amount of damage.

In which case Archers use it and continue to do exactly what they do, for their full 5 rounds, and on into Melee, if necessary.

Where the helm shines would be facing team that deal *more* physical damage to you than just an EXbow. In which case, you'll get a shed load of STR form the helm, and Archer's will use it, to either ignore the EXBow, or to supercharge themselves to kill better in Range.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 4:54 PM EST

Exbows aren't firing unless there's something wacky going on.

Slayer?

That's the largest EXBow, on a minion with no Melee Weapon, that fires every round...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 4:55 PM EST

Which wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn in melee...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 5:32 PM EST

OK,

Pelt of the berserkir (Cloak)

AC: Whatever

Each + absorbs 0.5% of all taken incoming damage. This abosrbed damage is added to STR in the First round of Melee, and on each successive round for any additional damage taken. Damage redireced by PL isn't absorbed by the Pelt.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 5:33 PM EST

As for why Melee;

Balance: Archers won't get use out of it.

Fluff: You spend the Ranged rounds building yourself into the Berserkergang.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 5:34 PM EST

As for why a Cloak;

Balance: Can't be junctioned to a Jig. Or a Hal.

Fluff: It's a bear's skin. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 5:46 PM EST

Cloak? seriously GL? How is that even sane considering the really low power of existing items in that slot?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 5:49 PM EST

This is going to 'Best in Slot' for Tanks, where ever it's placed.

HoE or this as a Helm? No contest.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 5:57 PM EST

HoC or this however is a whole other story... I'd likely be forced to keep using the HoC because of my exbow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 6:14 PM EST

Only when you face Zen.

Face another EXbow team without an archer and you wouldn't need the HoC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 6:15 PM EST

Actually I'd be better off offensively with the HoC...

AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] November 15 2010 6:17 PM EST

cloak = no ToA either... this item would never be used if it were a cloak

AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] November 15 2010 6:20 PM EST

but make it an amulet and it still forces no junction to hal or jig

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 6:25 PM EST

cloak = no ToA either... this item would never be used if it were a cloak

;)

That was another reason why as well mate.

Zenai November 15 2010 7:17 PM EST

No Matter the Slot the point would be simple make it work in Melee only for the regen. If it worked in Ranged Massive Archers like myself would destroy the ranks bit by bit. Streamlining your strat to fit properly with this item wouldn't be too hard to do for an Archer if it were a helm.

OP: Archers have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed yet again for their damage. Let's not punish all Ranged Players for the simple fact of where I and a select few other Archers currently are.

Just to put this into Perspective just how many Archers have 21Mil+ Str, 18Mil Dex and a x60K ELB? As of this moment noone even has a x30K ELB and only a few have roughly 15Mil Str and Dex.

Admittedly I am a freak there are only a few people in this game that are crazy enough to take it to the same level I have. I planned all of this out and have painstakingly pursued said plan but not everyone has this capability.

In short leave the Archers alone.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2010 7:26 PM EST

Just nerf you specifically then? ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2010 7:32 PM EST

As long as GA return doesn't up STR I see no reason why ranged should be prohibited... at the levels we're talking about now it would take a huge amount of damage taken to up str more than a mil or two.
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