Exbow Concept (in General)


{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 12:19 AM EST

LB said i should, so i will repost this idea.


Exbow drain.
(2 x Exbow Minion Str + 1/2 Minion Dex)/(1/2 x Opponents Str + 3/4 x Opponent dex) x Base damage x Damage Dealt.

E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and 250k dex and theirs has 2mil str 500k dex. You deal 80k damage
(2mil + 125k)/(1mil + 375k) x 4 x 80k
1.545 x 4 x 80k
6.182 x 80k
494,545 strength drained

Axbow drain would be
(1/2 Axbow Minion Str + 2 x Minion Dex)/(3/4 x Opponents Str+ 1/2 x Opponent dex) x Base Damage x Damage Dealt
using the same example
E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and 250k dex and theirs has 2mil str 500k dex. You deal 80k damage.
500k +500k/1.5mil+250k x 4 x 80k
.57 x 4 x 80k
2.29 x 80k
182,857 dexterity drained.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 17 2010 12:40 AM EST

It seems to me like this would work too black and white still. Namely if you are smaller you won't do anything and if you are larger you will pound them really fast. Also overall it would just drain far far less.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 17 2010 12:41 AM EST

For the record if the ex/axbows don't drain effectively enough it becomes more worth it to invest in either a different ranged weapon or just use it all on your melee weapon. I have already found that for me that is the case with the exbow as it is.

QBOddBird November 17 2010 1:01 AM EST

It seems to me like this would work too black and white still. Namely if you are smaller you won't do anything and if you are larger you will pound them really fast.

As long as the relationship between weapon X and STR is the same as it is now, the Exbow will always be a very black and white weapon, no matter how you change the formula.


Take the Axbow. With this weapon, you can drain the entirety of an opponent's DEX stat, just like you would the STR stat with the Exbow. An opponent who was drained, however, can still potentially hit if they have PTH on their weapon. The DEX and the PTH play two separate roles in the hit formula, and so while draining one can cripple the tank, it doesn't necessarily mean it is entirely ineffective.

The relationship between STR and weapon X, however, is completely reliant. Without any STR, your weapon does little to no damage; similarly, without any weapon X, your STR is pretty much useless. If the two played more separated roles in determining damage, as DX and PTH do, then it would be easier to adjust the Exbow without receiving the 'Black and White' effect Natasha describes.

IMHO, I feel that the solution to the Exbow's functionality lies more in changing the system that it alters rather than in changing its own ability to alter it.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 4:31 AM EST

IMHO, I feel that the solution to the Exbow's functionality lies more in changing the system that it alters rather than in changing its own ability to alter it.

I agree with that. To an extent. The system worked fine until the introduction of this item and its only this item that causes problems.
So really there is three choices, all of which don't have good solutions.

Change the system so the Exbow works appropriately. Lots of time to do, changing a system thats been around for 5 years in CB2 is no neat feat i would imagine.

Change the exbow so it works appropriately for the system. People keep trying, but we end up nerfing it, making it more powerful that it is already or ending up with a black and white affect.

Remove the exbow. This is problematic cause it was introduced to fix a longer term, existing imbalance in power with archers. Take that away and you are left with what you had before.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 4:34 AM EST

On a side note, how about forcing people to use a skill with it that must be trained equal to C by the weapon x where C is a constant?
Crossbowmanship, does similar things to archery except trained to a multiple of the weapon x and affects crossbows.
the damage and bonus effects are multiplied against the skill from 0.01 to 1.00

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 4:38 AM EST

the damage and bonus effects are multiplied against the skill from 0.01 to 1.00

edit post, the damage should be multiplied against the skill from 0.01 to 1.00 +0.5.
so if the skill is at 1.00, the damage dealt is 150% of normal. If the skill is at 0.00, the damage dealt is 50% of normal.

Zenai November 17 2010 1:25 PM EST

Crossbowmanship Skill

Pounded that dead horse many times already and came up with nil. ELB Archers are going to be the ONLY fighters that MUST train a Skill to use their weapon or suffer massive penalties period. Everything else is semantics unfortunately.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 3:18 PM EST

forcing a skill for purely defensive item is silly, without BL an exbow user has no chance...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 17 2010 3:42 PM EST

Pounded that dead horse many times already and came up with nil. ELB Archers are going to be the ONLY fighters that MUST train a Skill to use their weapon or suffer massive penalties period. Everything else is semantics unfortunately.

As I've tried to explain before Zen, it's all about perception.

A Melee Tank *not* using BL is suffering massive penalties. ;)

QBOddBird November 17 2010 4:51 PM EST

A Melee Tank *not* using BL is suffering massive penalties. ;)

Agreed, they are missing something like 40% of their potential damage and a double damage first blow

Zenai November 17 2010 5:39 PM EST

No that is extra and ALWAYS will be no matter how you choose to perceive it gentlemen.

If BL had never been then what would be the argument? Archery is not extra it is a requirement to use the ELB plain and simple. For other Bows it is extra THAT is the difference.

Zenai November 17 2010 5:44 PM EST

Double Post!

Forcing a Skill for ANY item is silly, nerf the freaking item problem solved.

QBOddBird November 17 2010 5:45 PM EST

Nah, it's definitely perspective.


You can say:

Melee weapons do X damage and are at 100% accuracy.
Bloodlust brings them to X + 75% damage and 100% accuracy.

Bows do X damage and are at 20% accuracy.
Archery brings them to X damage and 100% accuracy.

or

Melee weapons do X damage and are at 100% accuracy.
Melee weapons without Bloodlust do (60%)*X damage and are at 100% accuracy.

Bows do X damage and are at 100% accuracy.
Bows without Archery do X damage and are at 20% accuracy.

or

the traditional view, which is

Melee weapons do X damage and are at 100% accuracy.
Bloodlust brings them to X + 75% damage and 100% accuracy.

Bows do X damage and are at 100% accuracy.
Bows without Archery do X damage and are at 20% accuracy.


It really is perspective

Zenai November 17 2010 5:48 PM EST

Check the above post and perspective has jack to do with requirements OB. ELB REQUIRES the use of the ARCHERY Skill no other item in the game can claim that period.

Kefeck November 17 2010 5:52 PM EST

Ha, how about removing archery from the game. And on top of that lower the chance to hit for elven log bows? I'd be very okay with this. ;0

QBOddBird November 17 2010 5:53 PM EST

ELB REQUIRES the use of the ARCHERY Skill no other item in the game can claim that period.

Huh? I equipped an ELB yesterday, it shot just fine, just not so accurately. I did it without Archery.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 17 2010 5:59 PM EST

No Zen, Bows do not *require* Archery.

They work optimally with them.

Exactly like Melee weapons and BL. Not using BL with a melee weapon means you're not using it optimally...

Your perspective here is skewed.

Zenai November 17 2010 6:02 PM EST

Huh? I equipped an ELB yesterday, it shot just fine, just not so accurately. I did it without Archery.

Shooting and being effective are 2 different thongs OB you are spouting semantics. Run an Archer without Archery with an ELB and let's see how effective it is.

Aside from this did you read my post where I said: "Forcing a Skill for ANY item is silly just nerf the freaking item problem solved."? What are your thoughts on that?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 17 2010 6:04 PM EST

Get rid of Archery and nerf the Elbow.

Sounds fine.

Kefeck November 17 2010 6:06 PM EST

Exbow does not need a nerf. There are at least 10 counters can that be said about the elven long bow?

QBOddBird November 17 2010 6:10 PM EST

Shooting and being effective are 2 different thongs OB you are spouting semantics. Run an Archer without Archery with an ELB and let's see how effective it is.

You are correct, they are two different things; but you said the ELB requires the use of the Archery skill. It doesn't. If you use Archery, the ELB becomes more effective - by a long shot - but you can certainly use it without Archery.

Aside from this did you read my post where I said: "Forcing a Skill for ANY item is silly just nerf the freaking item problem solved."? What are your thoughts on that?

Titania hit Light Yagami [590065]

My thoughts on that are that there isn't an item that you are forced to train a skill to use. If you had to use Archery with the ELBow, then that line I pasted above would not exist. It's as GL said, compare it to Bloodlust. What you are saying:

"ELB REQUIRES the use of the ARCHERY Skill"

is like me saying

"Melee weapons REQUIRE the use of the BLOODLUST skill"

because in both cases, the skill makes the use of the item vastly more effective.

Zenai November 17 2010 6:11 PM EST

Kefeck: I was talking about the ELB.

Kefeck November 17 2010 6:36 PM EST

Ha, nevermind ;O

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 6:46 PM EST

err, i'm sorry i brought up the skill idea?

We could always try changing it like this.
Increase the bth to 65 or 70, lower the cost of upgrading x, reduce the effectiveness of bonus abilities by 50%.
Straight out, make it a bit better damage and a bit less drain.

Zenai November 17 2010 6:52 PM EST

OB I said RUN an Archer with an ELB without Archery not one little fight.

Vastly different in use doesn't apply to BL and a Melee Weapon versus Archery and ELB. Melee is melee and it runs just fine without BL, ELB without Archery is not even a comparison.

A true comparison would be to say Ranged without Archery is like Melee without BL.

Both sound just as silly.

QBOddBird November 17 2010 7:12 PM EST

Melee weapons lose a vast amount of effectiveness without the appropriate skill

Bows lose a vast amount of effectiveness without the appropriate skill


I'll stop participating in the thread de-rail now, sorry Nayab

Kefeck November 17 2010 7:19 PM EST

Bringing this back on topic.

I'm not sure increasing the Base to hit to 65-70 would make that much of a difference. Currently my base to hit is 56 so that would be about 10-15 extra plus to hit. Might help those at the top but it won't help me and most others at all.

Now trade that for more damage and less drain?

The POINT of the exbow is to drain NOT to do damage. We really going to turn it into another weapon that GA can just eat alive?

Zenai November 17 2010 7:21 PM EST

It not truly a derail OB.

And you are right on both accounts. My point was that ELB loses so much that Achery is a Requirement just to use it properly no other item in the game can claim that and you know it.

Now answer the question I asked if you would be so kind. Why not just Nerf the ELB and make it usable(in an effective way) and just nix the Archery Skill?

QBOddBird November 17 2010 7:24 PM EST

I'll respond via Chatmail, or in Chat if you'd like to come in. It really is a derail. Sorry :P

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 7:24 PM EST

What would be an accurate conversion of strength to weapon x?
i.e. does 1000 strength = 100x, 10x, 1x?

QBOddBird November 17 2010 7:31 PM EST

If I remember correctly, both weapon X and STR have the same way they work on damage: that is, if you multiple your STR x4, you'll double your damage, and if you multiply your weapon X by x4, you'll double your damage.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 7:37 PM EST

So would it be accurate then to go from base values and say that 20 strength is equal to 1 weapon x?

QBOddBird November 17 2010 7:39 PM EST

I don't know if that would be a good way to derive the ST/weaponX relationship or not. :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 7:40 PM EST

/me taps his foot and demands Nat come explain it to us

Zenai November 17 2010 7:44 PM EST

I'll respond via Chatmail, or in Chat if you'd like to come in. It really is a derail. Sorry :P

No it is not OB. Think about this, if the ELB were remade, the skill kicked why would we even need the ExBow to be redone? 90% of the ppl who complain about it are ELB users....it would make more sense to solve the problem rather than change the temporary fix.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 7:47 PM EST

I was just trying to come up with a formula for the drain of the crossbow weapons.
Here is what i got so far.

[Minion Strength/(20*Weapon X)]^[(20*Weapon X)/Minion Strength]-1=Drain%

QBOddBird November 17 2010 7:53 PM EST

Fine, I will respond to you one final time.

Crossbowmanship Skill

Pounded that dead horse many times already and came up with nil. ELB Archers are going to be the ONLY fighters that MUST train a Skill to use their weapon or suffer massive penalties period. Everything else is semantics unfortunately.

This is what brought the topic up. He mentioned use of a Crossbowmanship skill as a means of balancing the Exbow's capabilities, and you used it as a platform to bemoan the fact that you have to train Archery to gain an extra 80% CTH on your Elbow.

Think about this, if the ELB were remade, the skill kicked why would we even need the ExBow to be redone? 90% of the ppl who complain about it are ELB users....it would make more sense to solve the problem rather than change the temporary fix.

The problem people have with the Exbow has to do with its ability to drain STR; the weapon you happen to have equipped has absolutely nothing to do with it. All I can see this as is trying to use someone else's thread as a platform to get Archery removed.

Removing the Archery skill is not a "means to fix the Exbow concept." Quite frankly, if it were removed, you could simply reinvest the EXP into STR and then fill up the newly gained Encumbrance with weapon X and regain the damage lost. I do not feel that it is a good idea, but whether it is or is not, it does not have to do with the thread topic.

Zenai November 17 2010 8:01 PM EST

Direct connection OB the ExBow was made to counter the ELB period. Remove the need for it and you no longer have a need to "Fix" it.

QBOddBird November 17 2010 8:02 PM EST

Nayab - I tested that formula with my own 11,840,000 STR and a x6930 Exbow, and came up with like 5% drain...am I doing something wrong? Because that just doesn't look right.

Zenai November 17 2010 8:02 PM EST

Double post. There would no longer be a need for the item OR the skill. The statement holds true though.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:05 PM EST

hmm, that is problematic. need to do some fixing then.

QBOddBird November 17 2010 8:07 PM EST

Funny, I can't seem to find the changelog where Jon says "hey guys, I made some new items, the Exbow and Axbow are designed specifically to combat Elven Long Bows, have fun"

But if that's the case then I vote that they only work on ELBow users, and that should solve the problem, after all they were introduced to combat the ELB





...seriously x_x

QBOddBird November 17 2010 8:08 PM EST

OK, just checking to see if I was getting it right. I was curious about what mine would turn out to be with that formula. At least you are trying to come up with a formula :D

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:14 PM EST

Alright, updated formula

[Minion Strength/(80*Weapon X)]^[(80*Weapon X)/Minion Strength]-1=Drain%

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:15 PM EST

that constant*weapon x was why i was asking about the conversion of strength to x earlier

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:20 PM EST

Im not sure if the drain would be better off going from current or base Str.

Also, a request to every Exbow user out there, can you do calculations for your % drain using the formula and post that here along with your str and weapon x please?

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:21 PM EST

Axbow users too.

QBOddBird November 17 2010 8:43 PM EST

I still must be doing something wrong.

(11840000/(80*6930))^((80*6930)/11840000) = .046824

-1 = -1.046824

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:48 PM EST

Using your data.
(11840000/(80*6930))^((80*6930)/11840000)-1
=(21.356^0.046824)-1
=1.154-1
=.154 or 15.4% drain. Which is still overly small :(

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:55 PM EST

another update

[Minion Strength/(80*Weapon X)]^[(160*Weapon X)/Minion Strength]-1=Drain%

when applied to OB's data

(11840000/(80*6930))^((160*6930)/11840000)-1
=(21.356^0.093649)-1
=1.332-1
=.332 or 33.2% drain

Need other data so i can see how the formula fairs for more than one set of data

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 8:56 PM EST

Im putting incentive behind this now.
Anyone who supplies data for this will receive $25k

Kefeck November 17 2010 9:09 PM EST

Strength: 7,515,493
My Bow : An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x2584] (+100)

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 9:25 PM EST

Nayab (Alara United) 118.208.55.131 Kefeck (The Color Morale) $25000 -- data cash 9:23 PM EST
Nayab (Alara United) 118.208.55.131 QBPheasant Plucker (Erza Scarlet) $25000 -- data cash 9:23 PM EST

Doesn't like the names in this :(

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 9:26 PM EST


(7515493/(80*2584))^((160*2584)/7515493)-1
=(36.3559^0.055)-1
=1.2185-1
=.2185 or 21.85% drain

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 9:31 PM EST

Making an excel sheet atm, the more data i get the better :)

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 10:45 PM EST

A general question for people.
Are we wanting the str of the attacking minion or the value of the weapon x to have more effect on the drain?

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 17 2010 11:21 PM EST

I have a working formula that doesn't reduce the drain to nothing. The drain would be from the current stat

(Weapon x*80)/(minion Str+Weapon x*80)= E
(E^E)-0.2= Drain%

Or in full it is:

[(Weapon x*80)/(minion Str+Weapon x*80)^((Weapon x*80)/(minion Str+Weapon x*80)]-0.2= Drain%

I would like to make a maximum cap.
Minion Str/Weapon x = Drain% cap
This is to prevent minions with lower str than weapon x draining insane amounts.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] November 18 2010 1:25 AM EST

That seems pointlessly over complicated Nayab.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 18 2010 1:54 AM EST

I guess my question is why is this any different than what's existing?
If you don't do enough damage, the drain is minimal, it takes tens of hits to completely drain with any sort of defense at all.

This would simply penalize NW, something we all ready do quite well with ENC. Maybe if Nat gets her weapon X to PR wish we'll also have that to hurt people willing to invest in weapons.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 18 2010 2:05 AM EST

It worked well for the data i could gather, providing high but not complete str drains. I can adapt it to lower the drain also. If you want me to send the spreadsheet, give me your email and ill send it off to you so you can test and check yourself.

This method does not relate to damage dealt in any way.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 18 2010 2:22 AM EST

So a heavy tank would have less defense than it does now?
No Sale.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 18 2010 3:03 AM EST

Actually, that solves a problem i didn't realise i had. Thanks Nov!

(Weapon x*80)/(minion Str+Weapon x*80)= E
(E^E)-(opposing minion's armor/750)= Drain%

Or in full it is:

[(Weapon x*80)/(minion Str+Weapon x*80)^((Weapon x*80)/(minion Str+Weapon x*80)]-(opposing minion's armor/750)= Drain%

:D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 18 2010 7:20 AM EST

Direct connection OB the ExBow was made to counter the ELB period. Remove the need for it and you no longer have a need to "Fix" it.

No. The common reason to *not* nerf the EXbow is that currently it's required to counter the uber USD pumped ELBows, that would otherwise totally dominate every aspect of CB.

If you nerfed the ELBow, then there would remain no reason *not* to nerf the EXbow down to a respectible drain, that didn't result in one shot taking 100% of a Tanks STR away.
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