Make Dex useful again (in General)


lostling December 2 2010 1:44 PM EST

how about letting dex decide who hits first... if i have more dex then you i hit you first (and if the person is dead from the hit they dont get to hit back)

Pwned December 2 2010 1:57 PM EST

Nice! Great idea. +1

Underage Drinking December 2 2010 2:41 PM EST

So sex is needed for everything including DD and eo/eds. Maybe not needed but to have your dm cast faster than their would be a plus

Underage Drinking December 2 2010 2:41 PM EST

Dex* dam this smartphone

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] December 2 2010 2:42 PM EST

ED/EO are cast at the beginning of the round....I don't see how they could be cast any faster :P.

lostling December 2 2010 2:44 PM EST

well maybe if enchanters cast on round 1 instead of in the ether

Shadow Ruler December 2 2010 3:05 PM EST

dex is pretty much out dated since you can spill nw into DB's or + on your weapon, a good example is Erza Scarlet stacking a ton of strength and only alittle dex. Not trying to give him a hard time or anything, just pointing it out

Zenai December 2 2010 3:36 PM EST

Go ahead and do just that FGoD has 12Mil Dex trained and with those EBs has 20.19 Mil......yeah we will be having goose for dinner tonight because just about everyone's will be cooked.

Guardian December 2 2010 3:44 PM EST

I HATE how OB can have a 400k dex and strike very well tons of people, this is just ridiculous even if he has +200 weapon.

fix it!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 2 2010 3:51 PM EST

Not a good idea.

Lord Bob December 2 2010 3:55 PM EST

So sex is needed for everything
Well, duh. It'd be the end of life as we know it without!
*grin*

On the Dex thing, I was all for it, then I realized it would be a gigantic Mage nerf. Not sure we need this right now.

QBOddBird December 2 2010 4:41 PM EST

I HATE how OB can have a 400k dex and strike very well tons of people, this is just ridiculous even if he has +200 weapon.

A Mace of Disruption [75x501] (+60)

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] December 2 2010 4:42 PM EST

OB +60?!? Man that is way to big!

QBOddBird December 2 2010 4:44 PM EST

I knowwww :(

To be perfectly fair, my fightlist is extremely limited and I miss most people. I fight almost exclusively tank targets so that if I hit, the SoC makes it big enough to count.

PTH should count for something. If my weapon *was* +200 and I didn't hit people, I would be rather disappointed in my investment.

Guardian December 2 2010 4:50 PM EST

While i have x15000+50 sod, to loose for u at 700x60 with no dex sounds very bad while i have 6M dex

AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] December 2 2010 4:52 PM EST

he also has 8.5m HP over you

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] December 2 2010 4:52 PM EST

Yeah! I mean its not like OB MPR is nearly twice yours or anything xD

QBOddBird December 2 2010 4:53 PM EST

You stalemate me 90% of the time, because you have Evasion counteracting my PTH. That's why you aren't on my fightlist offensively.

I have a TSA regenerating all the damage you do each round, because I invested heavily in HP. That's why I'm not on your fightlist defensively.

And I get those periodic wins because my strategy is a 1-hit kill against single minion tanks; if I get super lucky and land a hit on you, I win because I've been storing up your damage the whole time.

lostling December 2 2010 6:31 PM EST

doesnt exactly underpower mages... of course if you are concerned just use the lvl of dd vs dex which ever is higher

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 2 2010 6:51 PM EST

Touchy subject..

If the + plays to much of a role you might as well hand the game over to the USD users.

lostling December 2 2010 10:20 PM EST

the problem isnt that + plays too much a role... its that dex doesnt play a large enough role

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 2 2010 10:45 PM EST

the problem isnt that + plays too much a role... its that dex doesnt play a large enough role

I totally agree

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 2 2010 10:53 PM EST

My proposed skill to make dex a little more important was Weapon Mastery. It adds up to 40 bth when fully trained. Only works for melee weapons.

Pwned December 2 2010 11:12 PM EST

I like that idea too Nat

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] December 2 2010 11:21 PM EST

Eh it would be semi useless since BL would be better. And the skill would probably need to be trained based off dex thereby making you have less dex better.

Adminedyit December 3 2010 5:15 AM EST

you could link DX to hit the same way that ST is linked to weapon X for damage. that would make DX needed.

Fishead December 3 2010 9:36 AM EST

Yes! Make Axbows useful again.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 3 2010 9:57 AM EST

i tried to find some of the threads where we discussed removing or raising the dex cap for multiple hits thus allowing dex training to keep adding to damage. can someone remind me why that wouldn't work to make dex training more useful?

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] December 3 2010 10:29 AM EST

Scoring 20 hits on enchanters/mages comes to mind :)

Demigod December 3 2010 10:40 AM EST

how about letting dex decide who hits first

That likely won't work with the way fights are run by CB. It might mean that the entire team would attack first, or that the defending DEX minion would land a bonus hit.

What about letting defensive DEX cut into weapon +? It could mean that even some mages start training the stat.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 3 2010 10:46 AM EST

Scoring 20 hits on enchanters/mages comes to mind :)

see how useful it would be!

actually, as a mage, it would make it less painful to train dex for the evasion matching as far as i am concerned as the benefit would then be two-fold.

Zenai December 3 2010 10:49 AM EST

Defensive Dex would be better than Offensive Dex in this matter.

The true problem with it before was that it was too powerful the way it was set up. Instead of trying to find a balance it was just nixed that should never have happened as this is a growing/neverending game. You will have to balance and re-balance things all the time.


Drop the multipliers a bit and bring it back. Maybe use some type of sliding scale in the formula and when the max is reached it flags the developer.

I know this can be done I have spoken with friends of mine that Develope Code for a living. It's usually a well looked upon practice to use flags in the code as it saves time in monitoring(A set it and forget it feature). I just do not know how long it will take to do in SQL .

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] December 3 2010 10:56 AM EST

I think it would be too punishing for those of us that want to takes hits, but over a few rounds. ENC is rough enough on multi minion teams without having to train dex to survive that many hits.

Guardian December 3 2010 10:56 AM EST

Adminedyit 5:15 AM EST
you could link DX to hit the same way that ST is linked to weapon X for damage. that would make DX needed.


BEST IDEA SO FAR!

Pwned December 3 2010 12:04 PM EST

you could link DX to hit the same way that ST is linked to weapon X for damage. that would make DX needed.


this would be a nerf

Pwned December 3 2010 12:05 PM EST

just make it useful to the people who'll actually use the stat, like melee.

Zenai December 3 2010 1:00 PM EST

I think it would be too punishing for those of us that want to takes hits, but over a few rounds. ENC is rough enough on multi minion teams without having to train dex to survive that many hits.

Then make Shields like the SoC drop Defensive Dex. Ya know this is not as complex as ppl are trying to make it....think it out. If you can point out a problem you can point out a solution or at least try to.

Pwned December 3 2010 1:10 PM EST

Defensive dex isnt needed. Its offensive. Why would someone whos gonna train dex need more defense? Thats just a mage boost.

Zenai December 3 2010 1:20 PM EST

How so when Mages SELDOMLY if ever train Dex? I think you have this backwards Exile

Shadow Ruler December 4 2010 9:49 AM EST

Adminedyit 5:15 AM EST
you could link DX to hit the same way that ST is linked to weapon X for damage. that would make DX needed.

To be honest i thought this was how DX worked. make it so and boost the numbers alittle? hmm?

Adminedyit December 4 2010 10:19 AM EST

>To be honest i thought this was how DX worked. make it so and boost the numbers alittle? hmm?

As far as i know (and i could be dead wrong) you don't need more than base (20) dex to hit if the PTH (the +) on the weapon are high enough. Where with the X on a weapon we all know what happens when its 10k or higher and ST is real low. There should be some kinda link, IMO, between dex and the + on a weapon the same way there is on the X on a weapon and strentgh.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 4 2010 10:22 AM EST

So you don't think it should be possible for there to be dexless heavy tanks who try to hit through pth and high dex pthless light tanks who hit through their dex?

Adminedyit December 4 2010 10:25 AM EST

show me a high dex low pth tank...

AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] December 4 2010 10:29 AM EST

You asked for it Edyit


Ezra Scarlet

AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] December 4 2010 10:30 AM EST

nvm you wanted high dex.... thats the complete opposite


whoops

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 4 2010 10:33 AM EST

Best example I could find..

http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=118174&opponent_name=Occam%27s+Razor

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 4 2010 10:35 AM EST

Best example I could find..
http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=118174&opponent_name=Occam%27s+Razor

Not really high dex, but the sad part is you don't need much more than 4 million dx to land multiple hits.

Adminedyit December 4 2010 10:36 AM EST

that example has nearly 2x the ST:DX ratio and added PTH from the ToA. not the best of examples for a high DX tank.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 4 2010 10:38 AM EST

Nat. The problem is dex is capped at one extra hit and pth isn,t

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] December 4 2010 10:38 AM EST

Best example I could find like I said..

If you can find better let me know :)..

Adminedyit December 4 2010 10:39 AM EST

no need to look for examples, GL has already hit the nail on the head.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 4 2010 10:41 AM EST

GL why is that a problem?

Dex and PTh work differently... do we really have to have parity everywhere?

Zenai and JS both ran high dex tanks...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 4 2010 10:49 AM EST

it does place a greater importance on nw rather than mpr. it also hinders uc because you cannot increase the plus other than through mpr as well as not being able to increase the damage through x on a weapon either.

if uc were changed then this may not be an issue, but it would still be nice for non usd melee players to have more options other than spend more.

lostling December 4 2010 10:53 AM EST

hijacked thread =x

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 4 2010 10:55 AM EST

UC needs more PTh? hahahahahahahahh.....hahahahahaha.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 4 2010 11:00 AM EST

Nov, it was a direct repsonse to why there are loads and loads of low dex high STR/PTH tanks, and hardly any high DEX low PTH tanks.

High dex low PTH is strictly worse than low dex high PTH.

As low dex *can* get you maximum potential hits and low PTH is just bad.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 4 2010 11:03 AM EST

Buffing DEX offensively has two problems.

1: There's no direct counter to it available to non Tanks. Making DEX more useful would make the imbalance between Tanks and everyone else greater.

2: The age old;

DD only hits once, but is auto hit. Melee hits multipe times but can miss.

How many hits is this balanced against?

Giving DEX the ability to land more hits just increases the 'base' extra hits melee has over DD and leads to more imbalance between the two.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 4 2010 11:04 AM EST

Zenai and JS both ran high dex tanks...

High DEX, High PTH tanks.

Not the type in question here.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 4 2010 11:05 AM EST

UC needs more PTh?

it could use more damage for certain(at the top where the non-linear nature hurts it the most), this would be one way of accomplishing that. as i clearly stated above though, if uc is revamped it may be a non-issue.



AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 4 2010 11:10 AM EST

Zenai's pth was only high because of the ToA... and even then wasn't really all that large.

Low dex tanks will never hit a JKF, They can't effectively use a specialty xbow against db wearers, and they get pummeled by archers.
It's not like there isn't a downside to not having dex.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 4 2010 11:12 AM EST

Giving DEX the ability to land more hits just increases the 'base' extra hits melee has over DD and leads to more imbalance between the two.

isn't that already an issue though with strength, X & + on weapons as the game continues to grow? especially the last two in relation to declining cbd values?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 4 2010 11:12 AM EST

Never said there wasn't.

It's still not the point.

low Dex, high PTH is always generally better than high dex low pth due to my original post above.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 4 2010 11:15 AM EST

isn't that already an issue though with strength, X & + on weapons as the game continues to grow? especially the last two in relation to declining cbd values?

/shrug

As STR grows, DD is supposed to grow twice as much (assumption is that the Tank trains STR/DEX equally, the Mage DD).

So NW makes up the other hlaf of the damage lost.

This has never taken into account the extra hits Melee could land, as we've never, ever, had any insight into how many hits Physical to DD is balanced against.

Is it the BCTH chance? Is it Max Dex chance? Does it include some portion of nw into PTH?

We don't and can't know.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 4 2010 11:19 AM EST

So NW makes up the other hlaf of the damage lost.

i guess that is my point as well. besides not knowing what number of hits we also do not know what vale the net worth side of the equation is balanced on. declining usd to cbd ratio, willingness of a few to spend great amounts and the aging cb economy make this value much different today than it was six years ago though.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 4 2010 11:35 AM EST

this idea would buff all the wrong stuff (lostling's original idea)

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] December 4 2010 12:14 PM EST

From the wiki: ST and HP give 30 ENC for every level, UC 15, all other skills/spells 7.5. Dex gives 0 to ENC.

Seems tanks would only make things harder on themselves if they trained a lot of dex, which would do nothing for ENC (smaller weapons).

Shadow Ruler December 5 2010 9:52 PM EST

>Nat. The problem is dex is capped at one extra hit and pth isn,t

so lets fix it and make dex viable, if we do it fixes the DD experience problem. placing equal amounts of exp into strength and dex. but right now we are placing more into strength, more into damage the exp ratio is off.
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