What's Happening here? (in General)


Vicious Cat February 3 2011 2:43 PM EST

This from a (typical) battle with Kitteh Goddess

Shinobu burns from the flames surrounding Aaarrggh (170443)
Shinobu crushed Aaarrggh with Slam's Skull Crusher [107437]
Shinobu cries "^_^ Mew Mew!"
Shinobu regenerated 17,523 HP
R.I.P. Aaarrggh

Right, so my PL wall has 123,723 effective level (104,850 raw).
Aaarrggh himself has 63,402hp

Why is Aargh not being saved?

Vicious Cat February 3 2011 2:45 PM EST

<Sigh>

Almost before I posted
:=(

DAMN YOU MACE OF DISRUPTION!!!!

Kefeck February 3 2011 3:07 PM EST

In my opinion the "ignoring" of Pl is a bit much on the MoD. Especially considering the MoD works with a Shield of capacity and even more damage against AS users.....

Wow...

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 3 2011 5:06 PM EST

Considering AoI or simple minion switching fixes the problem, I don't think it is that impressive.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 3 2011 5:14 PM EST

I think it adds a lot to the game honestly

Vicious Cat February 3 2011 5:36 PM EST

Considering AoI or simple minion switching fixes the problem, I don't think it is that impressive.

AoI or Minion switch means I've trained all that evasion for nothing...

Kefeck February 3 2011 6:13 PM EST

It adds allot to the game, but I just wish some of the other big mele weapons offer a little bit more..

horseguy001 February 3 2011 6:44 PM EST

Personally I like the MH/SoC combo a little better then the MoD. My enchanter has leeched as much as 700k HP in one blow. nom nom nom

The MoD is good and all, but can be countered as well. My SG or decay has never made a shield flash :D

QBOddBird February 3 2011 6:45 PM EST

but I just wish some of the other big melée weapons offer a little bit more..

I disagree, I think the current melee weapons are fine, but the VB should offer more so that it is on the same level as the MoD.

Supporter items should be better items. That way there is incentive to send a donation for them.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 3 2011 7:49 PM EST

Yes the VB seriously needs a buff. I tried it out in the tourney and it didn't seem to do any better than an ELS unless the person hard ridiculous armor like 350-400+.

BadFish February 3 2011 10:33 PM EST

The MoD is fine, if anything it is less competitive than the morg, it does really low damage. Even though it's double against AS, it's double of much lower damage.

Kefeck February 3 2011 10:58 PM EST

Omg... At least run a tank before spouting randomn facts...

The morgul hammer is horrible... Say goodbye to your dexterity because it's a two handed weapon. And the damage is actually super low thanks to the silly life leeching... *sighs*

QBOddBird February 3 2011 11:00 PM EST

The MoD is fine, if anything it is less competitive than the morg, it does really low damage. Even though it's double against AS, it's double of much lower damage.

You are absolutely wrong.

The Morgul Hammer (and BoTH) has a hidden damage penalty due to being a leeching weapon. The MoD hits just as hard.

Kefeck February 3 2011 11:01 PM EST

Go take a look at the top melée weapons and there networths..

Now tell me again the MoD is fine where it's at?

*chuckles*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 3 2011 11:31 PM EST

ELS actually works much better for me

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 3 2011 11:39 PM EST

BoNE has about 2x the damage of MoD.

Kefeck February 3 2011 11:39 PM EST

I'd agree, the elven long sword is awesome and is right up there in a close second with the mace of disruption..

But let's face it the only reason that's true is because it's single handed and hits like a champ! With no strings attached...

I think the other mellee weapons are lacking just a little. That being said I don't know of anyway to bring them on par with the els or mod without making them op or turning them just into copy cat items with a different name..

Kefeck February 3 2011 11:44 PM EST

Natasha'

The bone also takes that much more in GA damage and cripples your dex..

There is a reason why these items are not being used.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] February 3 2011 11:58 PM EST

I like how we are arguing about how a supporter item is actually better than normal items, and therefore, the normal items should receive a buff or the supporter item a nerf.

QBOddBird February 4 2011 12:04 AM EST

I like how we are arguing about how a supporter item is actually better than normal items, and therefore, the normal items should receive a buff or the supporter item a nerf.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING! :D

AdminNightStrike February 4 2011 12:40 AM EST

I like the multiple occurrences of the letter e with an accent mark on it.

FailBoat[SG] February 4 2011 1:00 AM EST

I noticed that too NS... Quoting bug?

Kefeck February 4 2011 1:26 AM EST

My bad thought this was a strategy game.. No strategy when theres only two weapons to choose from..

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 4 2011 1:33 AM EST

I'm pretty sure there are 6 pretty good weapons to choose from...

QBOddBird February 4 2011 1:41 AM EST

My bad thought this was a strategy game.. No strategy when theres only two weapons to choose from..

lolwut? You've got several options.

BoNE: More damage than anything else, period
MH: Decent damage, inherent VA
MoD: Decent damage, 1-handed, double vs AS / immune to PL
ELS: Good damage, 1-handed, better base damage than MoD
BoTH: Weaker damage, 1-handed, inherent VA
VB: Weaker damage, 1-handed, very effective against high AC opponents

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] February 4 2011 1:50 AM EST


Bonk!

Kefeck February 4 2011 2:51 AM EST

Pretty good doesn't quite cut it in this game Natasha".

If the weapons are so balanced then someone please explain to me why the top net worths are so unbalanced? even better could someone take the top 10 net worths for each and paste them here?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 4 2011 3:00 AM EST

How often something is used doesn't always mean its OP or underpowered. No one uses FB though I found it to be a viable strat at and near the top.

Kefeck February 4 2011 3:49 AM EST

The fact that your comparing the four weapons I've mentioned to fireball kind of makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere.. Admit this then, fireball would not be your first, second or even third focus if you had the funds to create the ideal team :)..

And why is that? Because fireball has tons of weaknesses for example low damage, weak against ga, you nuke yourself after you make it through ranged, and the list goes on and on..

Now in my opinion the bone, both, vorpal blade and mh all have weaknesses that prevent them In a way similar to fireball.. If that makes sense..

[Jedi] Danludar February 4 2011 4:08 AM EST

I think we should stop saying that this item is OP compared to these items, but we should be asking why. I mean what's wrong with the BoTh? A 73 base with a 20% VA isn't any good? It's also much cheaper to upgrade then a VB or a MoD.

That's just one example, there are others. Anyone have an response on this?

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] February 4 2011 5:02 AM EST

What part of bonk did you not understand?

Comparing FB to items of NW is not an argumentative basis to build on.
Only head way gained is in research of the facex + palmx2 quadratic.
Have a nice day. ;)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 4 2011 5:52 AM EST

I think the overwhelming use of the MoD by melee minions in the upper levels must be indicative of it's relative power. One might argue this is due to pl being too good.
If it were very OP I would expect to see a move away from PL/AS and a lessening of it's power. Of course with the salvage yard now in play the ability to change weapon without meaningful loss makes adjusting strategy to combat the MoD much less enticing.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] February 4 2011 6:07 AM EST


Hyperbole-and-a-Half:

This is an Alot:
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This is Alot of fire:
Photobucket

See also:

Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket

Zenai February 4 2011 6:10 AM EST

The analogy does fit Gun. Break it down and you get the same premises. All of the top weapons have pros and cons of course but the MoD does in fact have a bit too much(even for a Supporter Item).

BoNE: More damage than anything else, period
MH: Decent damage, inherent VA
MoD: Decent damage, 1-handed, double vs AS / immune to PL
ELS: Good damage, 1-handed, better base damage than MoD
BoTH: Weaker damage, 1-handed, inherent VA
VB: Weaker damage, 1-handed, very effective against high AC opponents

Mithril Shield:
# Negative 4% to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
# Negative 16% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapons.

Tower Shield: Almost never used
# Negative 5% to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
# Negative 17% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapons.

Kite Shield: almost never used
# Negative 2% to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
# Negative 14% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapons.

Buckler: Almost never used
# Negative 2% to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
# Negative 14% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapons.

Buckler of Mandos: Often used
# No penalty to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
# Negative 12% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapons.

Small Wooden Shield: Almost never used
# Negative 2% to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
# Negative 14% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapons.

Mage Shield: Often used
# Negative 1% to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapon.
# Negative 13% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapon.

Shield of Capacity: Often used
# No penalty to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
# Negative 12% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapon.

So 12 - 13% Penalty for 2 Handed Weapons with the often used Shields. MoD is not in that class as well as the VB as they are one-handed weapons. The MoD and VB are both Supporter Items so if the argument is comparing Rare to Supporter then compare these two. The MoD has two pros(Targets AS Users, Ignores PL) and only one con, whereas the VB has only one pro(Targets high AC) and con.

Before you say anything about the occurrence of use it does ring a bell of truth. The MoD is simply more viable for more strategies which is not the case with the other top melee weapons. Now this may be what was intended or this could be an unintentional mishap, either way it is not healthy for the game on the whole.

Now having said that the idea of the reason why this is happening also comes to mind. If there were not so many AS users then the MoD would not be such a viable weapon. This begs a question to be asked: "Should AS be looked at again?" Another question also begs to be asked: "Should PL continue to be ignored by the MoD?"

My personal answer would be anything that causes a problem with the balance of the game should be considered for re-balancing.

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] February 4 2011 7:14 AM EST

Too long and should not have read. -.- If you would have stuck with the addressing those two questions the post would have been golden.

The premise doesn't stand since FB was nerfed various times since our use eventually countered/prevented melee rounds, on the flip side this weapon was made to counter that one beloved spell RoS can boost & protect for thread rage results, and FB vs. The Big Melee 6 makes for quite the parody in current circumstances. That's putting it lightly. In short, that logic is flawed. :P


btw you forgot the secondary SoC effect

Kefeck February 4 2011 8:11 AM EST

and FB vs. The Big Melee 6 makes for quite the parody in current circumstances.

First of all wow, a post by Gun that does not have some random picture followed by an insult? O.O ..

Not to point fingers but natasha' used it as a defense before I compared the two.

I think Zenai is right take away some of the Dex penalties versus two handed melee weapons. And maybe then they would start to be a little more popular.

horseguy001 February 4 2011 8:32 AM EST

Tank vs tank I think the 2h weapons suffer.

The MH rocks because it is able to life leech in conjunction with the SoC. I have a terrible x58 MH and 325k str and have leeched off of over 3 mil damage at times.

That is a pretty big plus, at least for me.

Zenai February 4 2011 9:39 AM EST

Too long and should not have read. -.-If you would have stuck with the addressing those two questions the post would have been golden.

Too busy looking at things with tunnel vision there Gun. The reason the analogy fits is the same reason I explained out everything on the weapons. The MoD does not fit with the Big 6 in the "Same" way something does not fit With FB versus the other DD Spells. IE "Something" is wrong with it as far as actual balance is concerned.

As far as the Secondary with the SoC I C&Ped it from this thread so honestly I didn't forget anything.

I will digress since I'm not about to get into a posting warwith you or anyone else. I just do not have it in me anymore. So if it makes you or anyone else feel better you are right and I, of course as always, am wrong.

Zenai February 4 2011 9:44 AM EST

As far as the Secondary with the SoC I C&Ped it from this thread so honestly I didn't forget anything.

Correction I C&Ped only what I was looking to point out so no I didn't forget anything I omitted what was unimportant to my point.

Now I' done.

QBJohnnywas February 4 2011 12:17 PM EST

Ill stick with my Morg thanks. Using it enables me to operate without enchantments meaning I have no vulnerability to DM whatsoever. Suits me.
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