Random Mechanics Question: RoS DM ED (in General)


King August 22 2011 2:41 AM EDT

First off keep in mind I'm not looking for a change, this is just a random musing to get fellow CB'ers opinions.

Why is it that DM stacks before RoS reductions are applied to it while ED is affected case by case instead of final stack - DM effect?
-Debate.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 3:02 AM EDT

please clarify what you are talking about?

King August 22 2011 3:07 AM EDT

Say you have a RoS which gives about 6M protection from DM, the opponent casts multiple DMs, say 6.5 and 7.5M and in the end 8M DM gets through whereas if you have 2 EDs casting at about 4M each against a 5M DM you get 0 ED. (or at least the first half seems to work that way)

AdminTitan August 22 2011 3:32 AM EDT

Simple balancing act, without it RoS enchanters would be unstoppable.

King August 22 2011 3:43 AM EDT

A middling DM can completely wipe out a non-RoS teams enchantments. If you look at the top 10(by score) you'll notice only 2 people actually use EDs with a decent amount of exp trained into them, Me(a RoS team) and Ranger(Who has almost no hp left if you have a high DM).

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 22 2011 10:17 AM EDT

Nat, he is saying that RoS protection is on a per enemy team basis while DM is on a per enemy minion basis.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 22 2011 11:26 AM EDT

It was intentionally done that way and should remain as such. DM has such specific uses that it needs that advantage.

horseguy001 August 22 2011 12:02 PM EDT

DM only casts at 80% of its level, while ED casts for 100% of its level (with varying effects). DM will forever be fighting a losing battle against RoS teams due to the protection increasing as well as being 20% less effective.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 22 2011 12:55 PM EDT

AS, GS and haste do not cast at 100%, they are less than 80%. The other EDs are constrained by being related to other attributes.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 22 2011 12:58 PM EDT

What they cast at isn't important, it's the level they use against DM that matters.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 22 2011 1:04 PM EDT

I would say its the ultimate effect of the ED that matters, to both sides. While its hard to completely negate it, DM can effectively lower it since its 80% effect while the EDs are much less.

I do believe that was your argument about why evasion was effective although it couldn't completely make someone miss.

QBRanger August 22 2011 1:10 PM EDT

There are some, myself included, that have believed that EDs should stack just like EOs.

IF the RoS is too powerful then, one can always titrate its DM protection downwards to a more suitable level.

Right now, there % of people that use so high a DM to overcome equivalent level RoSs (MPR comparable) is quite low.

However, the game right now is balanced, as best it can, for the current system of EOs stacking and EDs not.

horseguy001 August 22 2011 2:16 PM EDT

If ED did stack 4 minion teams would be very powerful with the use of AS. You could circumvent exp concentration issues with 4 minion teams that way.

ED does in fact cast for 100% of its level, its just the effect is lower then what you have trained. 1 million trained levels of DM will NOT dispel 1 million trained levels of AS.

AdminTitan August 22 2011 4:06 PM EDT

1) The only benefit single minions have right now is in the form of exp concentration, this is needed.

2) AS/GA if stacked perfectly would be too powerful. RoS is already the best tattoo in the game imho.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 22 2011 6:45 PM EDT

AMF and EC are both 50% at equiv levels despite the things they reduce having many more bonuses. DM has it pretty good right now.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 22 2011 6:49 PM EDT

AMF both is both a defense and offense, and EC works at half on TWO separate stats... not a fair comparison at all

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 7:15 PM EDT

Okay I just want to point out one thing before you all get so excited about arguing these points.

There is nothing that says DM stacks up before the RoS protection. Also RoS doesn't state that it protects so much from each incoming DM. To my understanding DM doesn't stack beforehand just like AMF doesn't stack before hand. Rather it is that the RoS provides a certain amount of DM protection not a certain amount vs each DM.

QBRanger August 22 2011 7:21 PM EDT

As I have used DM, it certainly stacks before the RoS resistance is applied.

I have used 2 mid level DM vs a RoS that separately would not have overcome the RoS resistance. But together they did manage to lower my opponents AS and nuke his other ED spells.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 7:23 PM EDT

Please read what I said again.

QBRanger August 22 2011 7:49 PM EDT

There is nothing that says DM stacks up before the RoS protection. Also RoS doesn't state that it protects so much from each incoming DM. To my understanding DM doesn't stack beforehand just like AMF doesn't stack before hand. Rather it is that the RoS provides a certain amount of DM protection not a certain amount vs each DM.

Perhaps I am reading your statement wrong. But what exactly are you saying that is not already assumed in the earlier posts in this thread?

I think we all assume the following:

If you have a 5M effect DM and a 6M effect DM, you will have a total of 11M levels effect DM. Which will have the exact same effect as having 1 minion casting a single 11M effect DM.

If you go against a 10M level RoS which gives 4M levels protection, each of your opponent's ED spells will be lowered by 7M (11M effect minus 4M protection) levels. If under 7M levels, they do not cast for any effect.

Is that assumption incorrect?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 7:52 PM EDT

Why is it that DM stacks before RoS reductions are applied to it while ED is affected case by case instead of final stack - DM effect?

I am simply saying you can't assume this to be true.

QBRanger August 22 2011 7:56 PM EDT

I think we can due to experience.

I have had a mid level DM nuke 2 AS from a lower level character. But if the AS stacked, some would have cast.

Or even better, someone with a higher than 7M AS put a base AS on another minion. I will fight them and the base AS will certainly not cast at all. But make use that AS is on a minion to the right of the higher level one.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 8:00 PM EDT

No, you can't assume it. I say that DM doesn't stack just like ED and rather the inconsistency lies with the RoS. My statement is just as valid and neither can be proved.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 22 2011 8:01 PM EDT

Stacks before or not is irrelevant, the when is irrelevant, it addatively stacks.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 8:02 PM EDT

So does ED.

QBRanger August 22 2011 8:04 PM EDT

I say that DM doesn't stack just like ED and rather the inconsistency lies with the RoS.

I think we have proved, rather early in CB2, that DM/AMF/EC all stack before their effect is applied to the other character. While all ED spells are individually subject to the effect of the stacked DM. And each individual DD spell is subject to the stacking of AMF. With AMF you see the stacking as each minion casts it. With DM you just see the stacking amount cast.

Like:
[Bone Spirit] cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (9,709,000)
[Skeletal Mage] cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (9,740,040)

In this case Skeletal Mage has a 31,040 effect level DM.

What inconsistency with the RoS are you typing about? The RoS has a 40% of its level DM protection, which is also proven.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 8:20 PM EDT

Let me try to explain this as clearly as possible.

This is the point of the debate:

Why is it that DM stacks before RoS reductions are applied to it while ED is affected case by case instead of final stack - DM effect?

I'm saying that this is not provable to be true as there is an equally valid take on it.

Another take on ED DM and RoS: RoS grants phantom levels to each of your minions EDs. DM does not stack before RoS bonus but rather the first DM casts against it and dispels however many phantom levels and maybe into real levels that you have on each ED. Then a second, or more, DM casts on each DE dispelling further.

The RoS defense does not show up in the post battle stats so there is no way to tell exactly how it works. But taking this view both ED and DM stack in the same way, it is RoS that is having a different effect.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 8:22 PM EDT

As such it invalidates this argument.

There are some, myself included, that have believed that EDs should stack just like EOs.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 22 2011 8:29 PM EDT

I believe he meant that EDs of the same spell should be stacked before the EO is applied, rather than the EO being applied to each ED separately.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2011 8:33 PM EDT

And I am saying don't change ED to be treated differently from EO as they are treated the same right now. (may or may not be the case of course)

QBRanger August 22 2011 8:37 PM EDT

There are some, myself included, that have believed that EDs should stack just like EOs.

That statement was regardless of the RoS.

We do not know exactly how the RoS works, ok, I can see your point on that.

However, my statement you quoted works just fine if you do not worry about how the RoS works.

We certainly know that DM stacks vs each individual ED without the RoS involved. If the RoS does as you say, gives xxx levels to each ED then the DM is applied, it would be easy to program the game just to take xxx levels from the total DM effect, then apply it to the total ED.

However,
There are some, myself included, that have believed that EDs should stack just like EOs.

This not a factual statement to be proven or unproven. It is just a desire. Something to be debated but not as fact.

QBRanger August 22 2011 8:39 PM EDT

I believe he meant that EDs of the same spell should be stacked before the EO is applied, rather than the EO being applied to each ED separately.

Exactly.

And I am saying don't change ED to be treated differently from EO as they are treated the same right now. (may or may not be the case of course)

No they are not. As stated, we have proven, without the RoS, that DM stacks and is applied to each ED separately.

We have proven that 1 7M effect DM will wipe a 5M and a 4M AS that is cost. Or a 3M + 4M DM will wipe out the same set of spells.

AdminTitan August 23 2011 12:58 AM EDT

We have proven that 1 7M effect DM will wipe a 5M and a 4M AS that is cost. Or a 3M + 4M DM will wipe out the same set of spells.

And 10M DM on a minion going against a 2M SS with a 12M RoS = 10M wasted levels. The important thing about DM is that with certain spells (I'm hinting at GA here) if you don't get rid of it all, you've effectively just wasted all of your DM. And with the way the RoS works, providing protection to the entire team, RoS backed EDs are currently in a great state.

QBRanger August 23 2011 1:04 AM EDT

And 10M DM on a minion going against a 2M SS with a 12M RoS = 10M wasted levels. The important thing about DM is that with certain spells (I'm hinting at GA here) if you don't get rid of it all, you've effectively just wasted all of your DM. And with the way the RoS works, providing protection to the entire team, RoS backed EDs are currently in a great state.

Typically one does not use DM to go after SS. You use it to go after AS/GA. Even if you do not get rid of all the GA, getting it to less than 2.5x your max damage is advantageous as it lowers the GA retaliation. And every level you can lower their AS, even without nerfing it all is helpful.

RoS backed ED characters are very hard and tough to beat. However, the RBF works very well vs them as they typically have a weaker attack than DD tattoos and typically the ToA.

AdminTitan August 23 2011 1:09 AM EDT

Yeah, SS was probably a poor example (although not with a good team, it'd make you wish DM was stronger :) ). But, AS/GA is already pretty good unless you have extremely significant DM and if you under do it, it's gg.

QBRanger August 23 2011 1:22 AM EDT

I would disagree.

I do very well vs RoS characters except for Epitaph. Who has 900k more MPR than Horror.

My DM is about 7.7M effective levels. While it does not nerf equal or higher MPR character AS or GA, it lowers them enough to give me the advantage. Instead of their AS casting for 7M a minion, it casts for 4M, which makes a huge difference in the AS/GA damage axis.

AdminTitan August 23 2011 1:43 AM EDT

It takes what like a 15M level RoS to make that wasted exp? Seems EZ to me.

QBRanger August 23 2011 1:54 AM EDT

Yes and no.

Remember it takes up the tattoo slot to neutralize all that xp. While I can use my tattoo as, let's say, and IF to do damage.

Meanwhile the tattoo is fairly much useless vs the RBF, while my IF works great vs it.

BTW, it would take a 19M RoS to nullify my 7.7M effective levels of DM.

AdminTitan August 23 2011 3:00 AM EDT

Or you can use your RoS and make you invincible to the largest DM in the game to get you 100% RoS, invest in a 500AC wall set, be invulnerable to physical damage, reduce magic damage by 75% all for the cost of less than 1/2 of the largest weapon in the game. Not to mention, to counter 18M effective levels of SS, you would need 20M levels of DM. And all just to make the AC of your opponent not insta lose the match for you. This is just 1 of the many abuses you can do with RoS, not many are as good as this one, but they are all good.

Quyen August 23 2011 3:14 AM EDT

lolwut? did the thread just got hijacked?

AdminTitan August 23 2011 3:26 AM EDT

lolwut? did the thread just got hijacked?

I don't think so, I was proving that DM is already a subpar defense against EDs. GA/AS/SS coupled with RoS's are very strong. If RoS got changed to block DM from each minion, DM would be a worthless spell for almost any team that is not single minion.

King August 23 2011 3:54 AM EDT

Or you can use your RoS and make you invincible to the largest DM in the game.

I will applaud whoever manages to make the first level 27M tat and reaches the MTL required to equip it.

>invest in a 500AC wall set.

If you can make an enchanter or wall with the encumbrance to equip that on a multi-minion team and get 100% of the effect I also applaud your amazingly high MPR, brownie points if you can actually equip a weapon that does damage.

>Not to mention, to counter 18M effective levels of SS.

Congratulations you've insanely overtrained an ED eliminating a possible damage source. (Pro-tip; you need to kill minions to win a fight.)

Achievement unlocked: Stalemate - Design a team that will 100% stalemate all characters within it's PR range due to lack of offensive capability.

Omitted arguments: decay, decay, decay, decay, decay, AMF backlash in the event of the team using magic, Overall Low HP across all minions, decay.

horseguy001 August 23 2011 7:39 AM EDT

A minion with 20 mil HP, 15 mil trained DD on a 4 minion team (RoE!)with a full wall set might solve all of those problems. Amf would be the only thing that really gets through.

Nat, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying from earlier in the thread. If I have a 10 mil RoS and I train 4 2.5 mil AS, a DM effect of 6.5 mil will nuke all of my ED.

horseguy001 August 23 2011 7:44 AM EDT

Obviously I have forgotten to add the 50% from the RoS on one of the minions. Say 3 minions with 3.33 mil AS and one doesn't have an ED. Then the math stays the same :D

horseguy001 August 23 2011 8:10 AM EDT

Triple Post. Sweet.

Rough morning at work :D

Keep it at 2.5 mil on each minion...I hope you get my point though after this many posts about it XD

King August 23 2011 9:07 AM EDT

A minion with 20 mil HP, 15 mil trained DD

...is essentially a 6.6M MPR single minion with either a 35% or 17.5% penalty on it's DD, only 5 rounds of ranged(or no ranged hit if a melee spell is used) with 3 0 exp kill slots, the 500 AC wouldn't be 100% protection from physical without SS, you'd just have a heavy mage with 2 useless minions and a single (RoS level/2) enchantment, it would work on some people - all strategies will - I just can't see that as impressive though.

.. August 23 2011 10:04 AM EDT

Spread the exp out a bit more.
Say 10m HP with a 15m DD then train AMF on other minions with a SS backed by a RoS. To completely fizzle the SS with a 12m RoS, a team would need around 13m levels of DM. The only thing that this strategy would be weak to would be a VB.

AdminTitan August 23 2011 4:47 PM EDT

King you weren't here for slayer's last huzzah were you? And he didn't even abuse it to it's full potential. You can easily fit a full wall(500AC +) and a weapon on a tank. Put a 16M tat on a Enc with 4M SS and a +10 corn and SBs. Now you've got a 13M SS with 6.4M DM protection, meaning 19.4M effective levels. That would require 24M levels to DM.... 24M levels.... wait not sure if you heard me... 24M levels. Now that you've wasted half of your exp, good luck beating a tank that's still receiving a 70% reduction to physical and 50% reduction to magic. DM in no way and unless CB goes under some mass rehaul will ever be over powered. I feel like Sut over here just beating my head against a wall.

AdminTitan August 23 2011 4:49 PM EDT

Yeah SK, I haven't decided what I like better yet. A tank or the mage you proposed. A very high AMF can be deadly versus that strategy. Where as the tank could face problems from very high ECs. But DM, lol, yeah no thanks.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 23 2011 5:06 PM EDT

Mage doesn't need a weapon so you can cut out one of the smaller pieces of armor, like TG and still increase to around the same AC and have NSC as well. You don't need that much hp as it gets gratuitous at that point. Have or hire 1 small minion to train just AMF and hold the RoS with a base SS.
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