25 people in fight clans with score above ~5 mil (in General)

That's about it.

yea it sucks

32

6 in my 7-long fight list (I had to put one slightly below 5 mil too)
19 in my "add clan members" list
= 25

...oh, right...

6 in my clan (that's including myself)
1 with score above the fightlist add thingy
= 32

25, 32, not really that much of a difference.
Both are pathetically small numbers.

Pretty sure that just means the majority of our (real) active userbase is in a clan.

Still, 32 people is a rather small amount to choose from. Sounds to me like it's time to get rid of the clan system due to shrinkage! :D

Some more numbers.

8704 users who created a Character -> that's roughly 4 per day ON AVERAGE ever since CB2 started, and still noticeably above 3 even after you consider initial CB1 migration
3 new users in the past 24 hours -> pretty much par for the course

53 people that MIGHT have logged in 3 times per day for the last week.
(weekly session timer over 5:15:00)

9 game admins that have logged in in the past week.
3 of which fall under the above timer threshold.

If you're trying to convince us that very few people play CB

then um

we already looked around

i seen enough nubs not playing in a clan, enough players not playing in a clan :|

The key is in the +3 per day thing. They come, take a look, flee in terror.
Virtually next to none of the "new recruits" sticks around more than a few days... how many of those half-a-hundred actives is a NUB as opposed to a vet, can you tell ?

If you're trying to convince us that not many people are joining CB

then um

we already looked around

Yeah, he sure is enlightening us huh OB...

Hey, I wonder how many of those are my accounts?

Love,

Dudley

Quite the opposite.
That more than enough people do join CB.
But that next to none STAY after taking a look.


I blame it on a combination of "lack of looks", "lack of change" and "lack of fair second chances"... plus, if you will, that tacky USD-CBD link.


Lack of looks, which probably makes about 90% of potential newcomers flee on sight, but then again, even with great looks the game as it is now would still make 95% flee eventually.
And it's not just pure looks in the sense that there are no shiny graphics, animations and whatnot... but "looks" in the sense of "MySpace vs Google+", if you catch my drift. You can have an awesome mostly-just-text site, and you can have a lousy mostly-graphics site too.

Lack of change, that's pretty obvious - ever since Jonathan barely even throws an eye around here, regardless of how many "admins" we have, nothing ever really changes because the admins either lack the ability or the balls to actually do anything that's beyond mere bugfix or a slight improvement to convenience or cosmetics.
Seriously, name a few things that were NOT bugfixes that actually changed anything in the way the game actually plays that happened in the... oh, let's say, past 12 months ? Try 24 months ? Can you even name more than one that actually changes anything that really matters ?

Lack of fair second chances, in case you missed it, refers to the state of mind inspired by the current NUB system, especially for people that TRY to give CB a second chance, but, oops, you played 3 days a couple of months/years go, no NUB for you, go sit in the same corner as the guy with 1 bil CB$. Which is <stream of expletives self-deleted>.


And then you have the USD-CBD thing, which just piles on top of the above point to drive it home clearer.
The only reason I can find for even ALLOWING it in the first place was something akin to "if you can't completely and utterly beat them, just let them do it" ? SERIOUSLY ? Because to me that's what claiming it would be too difficult to enforce in such a way as to not happen in significant parts of the population sounds like.
Using that same line of reasoning you might as well legitimize multies and other borderline exploits since, hey, they'll happen, so why bother forbidding and punishing it.
Yes, that's what it sounds like.
And let's be honest, HOW MANY players that might have stuck around were driven back because they FELT that they NEEDED to put down real-life cash in order to even have a decent chance of competing ? And it's not even as if the cash would go to the game to make it better, it just changes hands with other players. Plus, it's not like it's an investment, pretty much everybody can see that the worth of in-game stuff is deteriorating, so you're not going to really get much of it back... might as well not even bother playing at all.


All of these things combined make CB2 a no-go for quite a few people that would otherwise stick around.

If you're trying to convince us that not many people are staying on CB

then um

we already looked around

It was funny the first time OB but please... STOP

If you're trying to convince me you don't really give a crud either way anymore and just sourly accept the inevitable final step of the senescence

umm

I already noticed.

Whether I 'give a crud' any longer is completely irrelevant.

The fact is, reminding me of it and pointing out facts that we've taken note of for years does nothing to change anything. We know the site looks less than desirable. We can plainly see that there are few changes taking place. We've told the developers that the N*B system is garbage. And last, we've already noted that the CBD-to-USD thing is more detrimental than positive to the game.

Old news is old. Everybody knows it. Popping into the forums to say "Hey guys, did you know the game is dying? Hey did you know? The game is dying! Would you mind if I explained to you that CB is dying? Hey guys look there's stuff wrong with CB! Did you know there's stuff wrong with CB? There's stuff wrong with CB" is preaching to the choir.

It would only be "preaching to the choir" if those at the "helm" of the game would already do anything in their power to CHANGE what's wrong as opposed to just idly stir in the pot with a blank look on their face.

Seems like this "old news" is pretty new to the people that could POTENTIALLY DO SOMETHING, otherwise you'd have something done.
They're either not seeing it, or are too afraid of an absentee landlord to do anything about it.

So, no, it's not preaching to the choir, not even close.
If anything, to keep it "classy", it's like preaching (something else than what they believe in) to the members of a brainwashed cult.
Nearly equally pointless, but still, not the same thing.

Let's make that more accurate, shall we ?

"Hey guys, did you know the game is dying? And it's not even mainly because it looks old. Hey did you know? It looks like you were denying it the whole time, but the game really is dying because of it! Would you mind if I explained to you that CB is dying because of THAT not because of natural causes? Seriously, it is, just freaking look ! Hey guys look there's stuff wrong with CB! And it can easily be fixed if you just lift a finger and do some minor changes ! Did you know there's stuff wrong with CB that can EASILY BE FIXED? There's stuff wrong with CB you should fix but you aren't. Why aren't you fixing the stuff that's wrong with CB?"

admins are here to keep the peace and ban the dudleys of the world. perhaps you mean devs?

Did you know? This sentence doesn't make sense! Preaching to the choir is telling people something they already know and accept. This has absolutely nothing to do with the devs.


Otherwise I'd have done something? How about you do something, since we're all capable of editing game code around here. You know, like find a better target audience already.


What? What makes you think the people here are too stupid to recognize that the game is dying? Do you think you're some creative genius who has realized that holy cow, this game looks old, has problems, and people aren't joining it?

Let's bring the analogy full circle.

You're a member of a disenfranchised group that wishes they could do something to change things, but cannot, telling the rest of the group that things should be changed. You know what the word for that is?

Annoying.



Frankly, the devs know something needs to be done, and I'm sure NS would love to work on it. However, he's an unfortunate victim of having a life and not maintaining this game on salary, and so it falls by the wayside. Can I blame him? Not really. Well, I could, but that would be unfair, so I'll leave it to you. Do I wish it was different? Yes. Obviously yes.

But it isn't.

Just as a heads up, the timer doesn't really work. I don't really know why, I just know weeks I'll be logged in for like 30-40 hours and it will have me at less than 10. I think it has something to do with how it records you as being active. Even though I hit all BA and read all posts, still has me a few pages back.

Whoever has access to and can edit the game code other than Jonathan who we know won't find any time to do anything radical.
Is that only NightStrike for now ?
If it's only him, then WE, the leftover players, AS A WHOLE, need to mostly agree on what HE should change.

SOME people in the group CAN change stuff. But they don't.
We know so far that group contains at least two people, one of which is exempt on the basis of "he can do no wrong since he made the game". That leaves NightStrike.


Gee, how about if, GIVEN THE FACT THE GAME IS JUST ABOUT READY TO DIE FOR GOOD, some other people OTHER THAN JUST NIGHTSTRIKE would be given the necessary administrative rights to fiddle with and improve the game's code ?
I mean, wow, sure, MIND == BLOWN or something, who could have ever thought of that revolutionary idea that if one unpaid volunteer can't manage the workload, adding more unpaid volunteers might make it less stressful ?

Somebody somewhere should do something. But they don't. And THAT is what's annoying, NOT the people (because, hey, guess what, I'm not the only one) complaining that we all know stuff's bad and we all know something's got to change, but alas, nothing does.

As my only post in this boring thread, if we cannot even get a rolling bonus, I doubt anything of substance can be done by the 'leftover players'.

We have heard from Jon why the rolling bonus idea was a bad one for him (although nobody I think understood his logic). I would have hoped NS would have stated his opinion on this subject as it seems to be a very heated one for CB.

And one that could potentially add players, both new and old to the game to some degree. At least make older players stay and play their current characters without seeing new players whiz by.

My advice: Either love CB for what is currently is and stop trying to change its structure.

There's a small but crucial difference between being able to and being allowed to.
I don't know about YOU, but *I* have a certain level of CS background, and I certainly think I could have been *able* to change it for the better if given a chance back when I also had the time to, and I bet some other people feel the same way, and some still have some free time AND the ability to at least learn to change it for the better... but I know I'm not *allowed* to, and the same goes for just about everybody else except NS.

Hell, we're not even allowed to LOOK AT the game code and make suggestions for NS.
Since the game is as good as dying, how about if Jon made the code public ? And not even all of it, just the parts relevant to gameplay ?
I bet somebody at some point will unavoidably come up with a way to improve something noteworthy.

Or, hey, how about the obliteration of the N*B system and the implementation of SOME form of a self-adjustable permanent bonus ? Or at least an adjustable duration for the existing N*B system ? Or any other number of things that CODE-WISE should be fairly straightforward, not to say trivial.
We already know the community is for something in that direction, but it never happens. Do you think it is because NS can't find the 2 hours to actually code and test it, or do you think it's because the proverbial ghost of the still-living Jonathan's distant past words is scaring him into not even trying to ?


Sure, I could always just give up and quit. Or give up and bitterly rap on anybody who even tries to shake things up. Then again, I have no desire to be a quitter nor become you.

That advice is fatalistic and defeatist.

I will not ever accept anything even remotely resembling such an advice, even if in the end the result will be mostly or completely the same.
And neither should anybody else accept it.
It's the epitome of what's wrong with this game, a lot of other games, and a LOT OF REAL-LIFE STUFF TOO. Like, oh, say, political regimes ?

from what i have read there are at least two others that can make changes to the game than ns. they are listed in the 100 papercuts thread where ns was delegating some of the things he approved.

there have also been other threads where ns has given his approval for a change and delegated the coding or said he would do it himself.

if you want to volunteer, i would suggest going through those threads and making a list of items that have been approved and who ns delegated the task to. i would also suggest doing this in a google spreadsheet to make it easy to share.

this would maximize the minimal amount of volunteer time we do get from our devs and give them a ready list to work from increasing their efficiency which would translate to more changes for us.

I couldn't frankly give a rodent's refuse evacuation valve's worth of damn about the "papercut" things since they all basically fall in the "problem with looks" department, and barely improve it.

I want public access the actual gameplay-related code, and I want NS to make radical gameplay changes without a 200-year-Jon-approval-process, regardless of what those changes might be.
But that's not something likely to happen with the current mentality.

You know, stuff like different durations on N*B, retriggerable N*B, rolling bonuses, changes to the BA regen rates and BA cap amounts, changing the way spells/skills work, changing the disenchant return rate, changing the number of melee/ranged rounds, changing the way score is calculated, changing the way XP/CBD rewards are granted... stuff LIKE that, that class of changes.
Not how pretty the "train" button looks, nor the ability to select percentages of total instead of fractions of the remainder in the train page.

you do realize that having unrealistic expectations will nearly always lead to disappointment?

i ask this simply because your expectations are not really in line with the amount of volunteer dev time we get.

OB, on a more serious note, what have we got left?

Leave and never come back?

Lurk and never ost any more?

Do those options *really* help? What will they achieve?

If we keep posting every now and again, letting the Devs (not the Admin! :P) know we're still here, we still want and have the desire for change, and it would be a *good* thing. Surely that focus and pressure is better than apathy?

It's been years since I've 'played' CB. I still hope in vain that something will be done.

But I suppose the only option I've got left is to leave and never visit again?

And that's the best thing I can do...

What's the 'or'?

i feel that jon is the one with most of the answers in regards to cb's future. he has always been reasonable when i have contacted him so i don't see how it would hurt to have someone contact him and see if he would be willing to answer a few questions by email. kind of a dev q&a session.

we could then come up with our questions as a community. the worst that can happen in my mind is that he says no. ; )

The only questions necessary.

Will we ever get another changemonth? If so, when?

I'm going to go with a Blizzard's "Soon" ﾙ

Also, if you want to help...


that is a bad philosophy to have.

Also:


Public access? You want a private game that someone made and it is their intellectual content to be public? I can see why you would want that... but why would they?

Secondly, not to step on feet, but I don't think things work like you think they do.

:D

I'm not saying "put it in the public domain", which is something completely different.

I'm just saying "let people see PARTS of the code" (the ones regarding gameplay), which is just what it says on the box.
Making it viewable by the general public does not automatically grant anybody else but the original owner ownership, rights to use or anything else like that. It's still Jon's intellectual property.
Heck, you could make all the relevant parts public and anybody else who would ever want to "emulate" the game fully would STILL have an almost as hard time duplicating it as it would be making it from scratch via reverse-engineering (especially if you don't want an exact duplicate).

So the question is, why WOULDN'T he ?
It's not like his code would be some cutting-edge trade secret on which many people's livelihood would be hanging on or anything like that... heck, I don't even know if the server managed to pay for itself yet at all or not, and if a new one would be needed it would almost certainly NOT pay itself back without anything changing.
And the code itself is no spring chicken either, seeing how a lot of it is probably over a decade old (or more). If anything, I expect the code to be at least partially still a complete mess. Again, somebody building a "CB3" would probably be better off starting from scratch than attempting to reverse-engineer the actual code.

So I could reverse the question... why WOULDN'T he want to do that ? What exactly does he have to lose ?
Because what he has to gain (potentially) is to have life breathed back into the game.

You know, with newcomers actually sticking around ever so slightly more often, with older players returning, with less people leaving, and with current players reincentivized to actually try and get people they know onboard (as opposed to grimly saying to themselves "I can't possibly inflict this silly old habit of mine on anybody else I know").

And the corresponding positive cashflow for him. You know, people usually like cash. You think Jonathan would hate to see more cash come into his pocket on a more or less regular basis, as it used to happen in the somewhat better ole' days when the actually active userbase was triple of what it is now ?

Oh, actually, I don't expect much. Or, better said, I don't really expect anything. I just hold the tiniest of a sliver of a hope that it might change, but that's about it. And I'm trying to do whatever I can still do as long as I still have some shred of free time left... not much more of that in the pretty near future anymore.

If both Jon and NS don't have the time at the moment to implement and make changes for CB (and there's no ill feeling there! RL always comes first!) then the obvious solution is to get someone else on board that does have the time.

And the skills. ;)

"Everybody else who wants to try" sounds best to me for the above-stated reasons :P

CB would suffer as a democracy. The least possible 'chefs' is a far better proposition.

Just because the code is public and just because anybody could suggest changes doesn't mean all those changes would actually be made.

It doesn't have to be an actual full-blown democracy.
It could still be just one person making the final decisions.
Or it could be a small group of people.
All would be good AS LONG AS THERE ACTUALLY _IS_ SOMEBODY THAT CAN AND WILL MAKE THOSE DECISIONS ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN THE LIFE OF THE GAME... as opposed to presiding in absentia.

And as long as the one that does (or the few that do) make all decisions first listen(s) to all the complaints (or at least the most frequent ones), then explains WHY the suggestions not taken into account are not good in a satisfactory and logical manner (as opposed to "because I said so" or "that's what I feel").
There's a long gradient between total despotism and complete democracy, we don't have to be at or even near one of the extremes.

Did Jonathan give NightStrike free "creative" reign over CB or not ? Or is NS bound by an ancient and obsolete set of directives left by Jon ? Does NS have to wait ages for Jon to agree to any more-than-minor change ? Does Jon ever actually greenlight any of those ? Does NS even try to bring them to Jon's attention ?

Or, to put it in the harshest way possible...

Somebody that doesn't play the game and doesn't listen carefully to what people that play the game CAN'T POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR THE GAME.
Jonathan has not been playing the game actively for ages, and there's been a long time since he stopped listening to its players.
Jonathan is no longer really qualified to decide what should and should not change in the game, because he has no clue anymore. And he has no time to spare to get a clue.

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001r9E
http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002qbk

Game start - mid-December 2004

100 mil fights - mid-July 2006 (19 months)
-> 175k fights/day average

200 mil fights - mid-August 2009 (19+37 months)
-> 119k fights/day average from start, but only 90k fights/day average since last landmark

Today: "Over 237,906,253 battles served!"
Not even 38 mil fights in 27 months. That's less than 47k fights/day average.

"31,296 battles fought in the past 24 hours!"
Right.

Yes, I totally see that.
Sarcasm, by the way.

I was tempted to let you keep posting at yourself

but this is a post so you don't feel so alone

<3

Wanna tackle my post (pnar pnar!) OB? :P

You guys are ridiculous..

Please add Trolling poopfaces (admin edit :) ) to the list of why we have so few players.

Yeah, that never really helps...

Just wanna put something here - this rl money for CBD thing.
All the games I play including the CB allied games are essentially run to make some profits for the owners (suprise, suprise) to either a lesser (S+F, bloodmoon) or greater (Dragons Call, Ministry of War, Shadowland and many more) extent.

I hardly think that a small involvement of CB/$ exchange here will put people off playing. I used to be a big spender here but havent spent anything on the game in 3 years or so and am still playing.

At least there the trade is in the favour of the game's maker. Here... how much cash does Jon see in Player A sells 100m CBD to Player B for 200 USD ? None.

That's how it is in all free market games (Which I"m sure you know).

Do you suggest we start closing or limiting transfers?

And maybe create a micro-transaction shop?

Assuming the funds would afford a complete overall of the GUI? YES. But of course it won't.

Yes and not quite but sort of yes, respectively.

1. Forbid sales of CBD for USD, and forbid sales of items or any other services for anything other than CBD.
Those who are found to still sell stuff for USD will be punished.
While it may not completely eliminate the Real Money Trading ("RMT") black market, it will force it deep enough underground to be far less important (both in size and relevance).

2. Have Mr. Chairman sell CBD in a similar fashion to forging for names of power at self-adjustable rates. OPTIONALLY, also have him sell items he purchased at moderately over the CBD->USD price he paid for in CBD.
You still need a legal "need CBD (and/or items), have USD" release valve to stop RMT coming back with a vengeance.
Has the added benefit of being both more convenient and providing the game with a steadier revenue stream.

3. Have him also purchase CBD at HALF the rate he sells them for, and only up to the total CBD he sold in the past month. Only from a certain large sum upwards, and only whenever the counter permits.
Just so people don't complain they can't "cash out" at all. Also has a built-in "run on the bank" protection.

...

The CBD-USD exchange rate will be established on a regular basis based on the old exchange rate mainly, adjusted by amounts of CBD sold to the public in the previous few days/weeks, amounts of CBD the public sold back, and the quickness of people selling it back whenever a sellback was possible.

Sure!


There's not much we can do other than post and/or play. We're simply not in the position to do anything at all about the state of the game.


A valid option.


A valid option.

They all help about as much as making a thread about an extremely visible problem that was just pointed out two or three days ago and has been brought up continually over the past several years. That's the difference between reminding someone of something, and kicking a long dead horse.


Like you said - every now and again. Sickone posted this exact same thing in a thread on the 25th, and then promptly made another thread about it on the 28th. Nobody is being informed of anything new, its just sticking our noses back in what we've smelled a thousand times before.

How about we quit turning on each other and try and remember to respect even those we disagree with?

What are you? Some kind of Canadian?

and here I thought I was just finally coming around to your point of view about complainers, Novice :p

I'm an adorable alpaca.

I really and truly feel that this post contributes about as much as anything else had to this thread.

I also can't seem to open these Aleve packet thingies I have. I'm about to take a hammer to them and just snort the medicine to try and alleviate my headache. Oops, got 'em.

Cut myself with my pocket knife, though. This sucks.

Hi, OB.

Nice try, Sickone. Could have used you around three years ago when so many of the problems we have now were clear back then and we still had developers with the time to do something about it.

On that note, I say we permaban anyone who in any way speaks badly about the state of affairs in CB.

hiiiiiiiiii GW

I wanted to contribute to one of these posts, so, here we go.

[24:13] <Godwolf> WOAH. I'm a genius.
[24:14] <Godwolf> you know how some pills come in the little aluminum and plastic wrapper/container things? I just opened one with the sharp edge of another one! brilliance!