New Supporter Item: Stormbringer Axe (in General)


QBRanger December 6 2011 10:54 PM EST

Base Damage: 70
Base To Hit: 60
Melee Weapon, 1-Handed Axe Class
Primary effect: Converts 1/2 of damage to strength. Allows the user to go over their maximum strength.
Secondary effect: Target loses 1/4 of damage in strength. Capped at 90% loss maximum.

I would then cap the exbow leech to strength 0 being the lowest a minion can go.

Upgrades as per VB.

Just a thought.

Phoenix [The Forgehood] December 6 2011 10:59 PM EST

So with a SoC and a huge VA, I can pretty much guarantee wins if it lasts long enough?

BestNUB December 6 2011 11:00 PM EST

BL would work nicely too :)P

QBRanger December 6 2011 11:08 PM EST

Would not work with a SoC, axe not mace. That was specific.

Gunny Pew Pew [Red Permanent Assurance] December 6 2011 11:14 PM EST

Genius! Have a cookie.

QBRanger December 6 2011 11:22 PM EST

Yummmmm!! Bacon!!

The only food that goes with everything.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 6 2011 11:24 PM EST

Don't forget cheese, it goes with everything too.

QBOddBird December 6 2011 11:34 PM EST

I'd use it. :p

Fishead December 7 2011 1:42 AM EST

Bacon and cheese? Yeah, I'm into that. Oh and the axe is not a bad idea either.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 7 2011 2:19 AM EST

Still like Nat's original version better, creating strength mutates walls in nifty ways.

Stormbringer December 7 2011 2:31 AM EST

Great name for an item.

Quyen December 7 2011 8:16 AM EST

Full dex ToA tank with AMF? :D

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 7 2011 8:21 AM EST

Great name for an item.

didn't work out so great for elric though! ; )

QBRanger December 7 2011 10:17 AM EST

Still like Nat's original version better, creating strength mutates walls in nifty ways.

The still have to hit with the weapon and they still need to do a decent amount of damage to gain strength.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 7 2011 10:41 AM EST

Thus why I like Nat's better. Generating str from nothing changes the game more and actually deals with the problem of the exbow hurting melee tanks as well as ranged.

QBRanger December 7 2011 11:24 AM EST

Not sure I understand novice.

The exbow destroys strength out of. nothing and yet that seems ok to some.

Why would not the opposite be true?

And for those who are new can you repost Nat's idea? I Caanot find it and do not want to misstate it.

QBRanger December 7 2011 11:28 AM EST

Which of Nat"s ideas?

She presented a change of the exbow and IIRC a melee weapon.

I would love to see a change in the exbow but realize it won't happen. This new item seems to me to be a fun one. Over time you get stronger. But over time and choosing between HP leech, VB effect, MoD effect and pure higher damage.

More choices.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 7 2011 1:10 PM EST

Don't XBows fire every Melee round?

So but the time you hit Melee, you have zero STR. You hit with the axe and no negligable damage, and regen negligable STR.

The EXBow then hits you again and takes it all anyway.

Doesn't seem like it would really work versus the item it was designed to combat.

Also how would it interact with EC?

QBRanger December 7 2011 1:14 PM EST

Doesn't seem like it would really work versus the item it was designed to combat.

With the exbow I do not think anyone uses it as their only weapon. However I do believe that exbows should not drain strength in melee.

Also how would it interact with EC?

Not sure I understand that part of the question.

EC acts before combat. The axe I am presenting works on damage you do.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 7 2011 2:19 PM EST

[11:20] <Natasha'> well the basic premise is z amount of str for y amount of x in the weapon
[11:20] <Natasha'> each round of melee

QBRanger December 7 2011 2:26 PM EST

I personally dislike a set effect for each x in a weapon.

Just like the exbow now. Once it reaches x15k there is no need to upgrade it further. You get max drain with little damage. Even a 10k exbow drains most if not all strength in all but the highest HP minions.

I greatly prefer weapons whose effects are based upon the damage one does.

Imagine if the MH had a set leech based upon its x?

I am not stating other ideas are wrong. This is just how I, Ranger, sees things in the world according to me, Ranger and only by me, Ranger. (standard Ranger disclaimer to prevent stupidity from reigning)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 7 2011 2:28 PM EST

This item would actually work well together along with the one I suggested. That is I would like both of them. But balance wise this should really be 20% damage converted to str and no secondary effect.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 7 2011 2:30 PM EST

Just like the exbow now. Once it reaches x15k there is no need to upgrade it further. You get max drain with little damage. Even a 10k exbow drains most if not all strength in all but the highest HP minions.

The problem with the exbow is not that there is an ability based on the x. It is that it is a % decrease ability based on the x. This means it eventually gets to 100% and then goes over that 100%.

A flat amount per x on the other hand never faces that infinity mark.

QBRanger December 7 2011 2:43 PM EST

Flat amounts discount things like AC which I and possible I alone believe should be mitigating factors toward drain.

And if we have a fixed amount and not a fixed %, is there not a point after which upgrading the weapon gives no additional benefit?

And you stated 2 items above. Why do we need 2 when 1 can be effective without massively changing the exbow now?

Do not misunderstand my utter dislike of the current exbow mechanics. But I realize there will not be changes to it for a long time if ever.

And melee tanks would get a nicer boost with bloodlust. Making BL really nice leeching strength more with each hit. Like true beserkers of some degree.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 7 2011 2:53 PM EST

A flat amount per x would be meaning like for ever x you have you gain 10 str per round of melee. This would mean at x1k you would gain 10,000 str per round. At x50k you would gain 500k str per round of melee.

Your suggested weapon would still be effected by things like AC and PL as your's would be at 20% of damage done.

Second these are 2 different weapons that function in different if slightly similar ways and actually would have their own distinct niches. More options in this way is better.

Also to note, while 1 of the axes would indeed be a form of countering the exbow, these items should not be considered as direct counters, but rather simply new additions to the game.

QBRanger December 7 2011 3:01 PM EST

Certainly new additions. One can easily use the axe I suggested vs all characters not just exbow using ones.

I think some base str per x gain is needed to account for 0 str tanks doing 100 damage leeching 50 str per hit. At that amount it will not help.

So what about a combo of the 2. A base amount per x and some amount related to damage?

In my vision of the axe PL would have no effect on the str leech. The damage you do can be PLd but the leech is still occurring.

Quyen December 7 2011 3:04 PM EST

if its a flat and a percentage, it should be even lower! like, 25 for every x + 10% of the damage done? :p

QBRanger December 7 2011 3:12 PM EST

Q. These are all things that can be titrated if the item ever gets forged in the smitheries of Nightstrike's castle of Horrors. :)

QBRanger December 7 2011 3:17 PM EST

Just a point for reference:

With 10m str and a x9300 MH (75 base) I do maximum 950k damage a hit vs 0 AC. vs minions with heavy armor I have done as little as 100k a hit.

So figure 500k average with a 125m NW weapon. I average 3-4 hits a round in melee.

Base 60 + 160 PTH + 100 dex = 320 CTH minus any DB and opponents dex.

Just a point to reference.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 7 2011 3:20 PM EST

I think some base str per x gain is needed to account for 0 str tanks doing 100 damage leeching 50 str per hit. At that amount it will not help.

Why does this weapon need this? It shouldn't be the all in one item. I think just the strength increase for damage dealt is more than enough balance wise to constitute it as a viable weapon.

The other weapon that I have suggested works better in the cases where your str has been drained or you had none to begin with.

As a side note, BL hates str gain, that is unless you train your BL to handle the increased amount of str you would not have a full BL effect.

Quyen December 7 2011 3:27 PM EST

As a side note, BL hates str gain, that is unless you train your BL to handle the increased amount of str you would not have a full BL effect.

it doesn't HATE it, it doesn't like to be OUTNUMBERED by str. :)

QBRanger December 7 2011 3:38 PM EST

Just like when a tank uses leadership. It gives you additional strength that if you BL or archery is not trained up to hurts a bit.

But nothing says you have to have 1.0 in a skill to use it.

And I would think 1 item doing the leech, even if combo, would be better than two.

Fixed plus damage related. Just like we gots now with the exbow drain.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 7 2011 4:10 PM EST

And I would think 1 item doing the leech, even if combo, would be better than two.

Of course it would be better than 2 separate weapons, but that is the problem. When each item alone would be viable, having both is just over the top.

QBRanger December 7 2011 4:42 PM EST

Nat

That would depend on how fast one would regain strength. And if you can reach a point beyond which upgrading would be useless. I dislike hard caps as we currently have with the exbow.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] December 7 2011 5:19 PM EST

Maybe it's just me, but this seems pretty overpowered. If you do 200k, you get 100k strength, that's crazy!

QBRanger December 7 2011 5:27 PM EST

100k more strength to my character and tank with 7M+ strength is not that noticeable.

Compared to what you give up in leeching HP, ignoring PL and/or just higher base damage.

It would be very noticeable if you are stuck with 0 strength from the exbow however.

And to do 250k average damage would take at least a 5k weapon with about 5M strength. Not a small weapon at all and not a low strength.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 7 2011 6:27 PM EST

Not sure I understand that part of the question.

EC acts before combat. The axe I am presenting works on damage you do.

EC takes you to -2M STR.

This Axe gives you back 50 STR per hit (being generous). You never get out of Negatives.

And if this Axe was implemented, don't you think folk *would* start using the EXbow in Melee? ;)

QBRanger December 7 2011 6:32 PM EST

If EC gets you to high negatives, something the exbow should not do (according to my and only my view), you will have a while to get back to positives.

That is one reason I wanted a base str leech plus a value based upon damage.

And if this Axe was implemented, don't you think folk *would* start using the EXbow in Melee? ;)

Why would folks start using one in melee with this axe compared to without this type item?

I would make a change to the exbow to stop it draining strength in melee. But that is just my and only the view by Ranger as only Ranger himself sees the world according to Ranger only.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 7 2011 6:40 PM EST

Why would folks start using one in melee with this axe compared to without this type item?

You made the claim that the EXBow isn't used in Melee.

I can onyl assume it's due tot he fact there is no regen of STR, and it's not needed in Melee as it does its job fully in Ranged.

Now, if this AXE was to be implemented, the EXBow would be given a job to do in Melee.

So it would.

And it would completely negate the intorudction of this item.

/shrug

QBRanger December 7 2011 8:40 PM EST

I see only 1 character I fight with only an exbow. Most tanks use the exbow in missile and then a melee weapon since the exbow damage is, yes, quite low compared to even melee.

I would, as I stated earlier in the thread make the exbow not drain strength if used in melee.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 7 2011 9:39 PM EST

personally, i dislike the idea of the exbow being the counter to extreme nw boosted weaponry and then adding a counter to the exbow that basically is invest more nw. talk about an arms race!

if we add some sort of counter to the exbow i think it needs to cost xp, take up a tat slot or use a skill slot. we can at least attempt to make it a strategic choice that way.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 7 2011 9:45 PM EST

First, I repeat, these weapons should not be considered counters to exbow, nor would they really work as such.

Second, the ex/axbow's damage is really low. Using it in melee means you fire only every other round as well as ranged penalties coming into effect. Basically you would be forsaking any chance at real damage with that minion in order to drain in melee as well as ranged.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 7 2011 9:55 PM EST

so this will basically just reward people with even more damage for pumping the damage mod on their weapon separating usd users even more from non-usd ones?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 7 2011 9:56 PM EST

Yes, actually it would have that effect.

QBRanger December 8 2011 1:45 AM EST

I would think that the leech of the MH/BTH or the special abilities of the MoD or even the AC cut of the VB or the increased damage of the ELS/BoNE would all be preferable to the added strength in non-exbow decided battles.

Doubling my characters strength to 20M would only increase my damage by 25%.

Yes, the exbow is borked. This at least is a counter that adds something to the game.

so this will basically just reward people with even more damage for pumping the damage mod on their weapon separating usd users even more from non-usd ones?

That statement could apply to any item in the game, more so for weapons of course.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 8 2011 3:44 AM EST

I would think that the leech of the MH/BTH or the special abilities of the MoD or even the AC cut of the VB or the increased damage of the ELS/BoNE would all be preferable to the added strength in non-exbow decided battles.

Then what niche does this weapon hold?

If it's not EXBow counter, and it doesn't do more damage than a ELS/Bone, why *ever* use it?

If it is an EXbow counter, then it doesn't seem to actually work in that role. Even if the EXBow only fires once every other round.

Of course, stop the EXBow draining in Melee (more tweaks, on top of more tweaks), then this Axe would be an EXBow counter.

But then if you're making the EXBow 'ranged only', you'll need to buff it to compensate.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 8 2011 6:55 AM EST

That statement could apply to any item in the game, more so for weapons of course.

moreso though for any weapon that gives a bonus to strength per x mod since strength is the other side of the damage equation.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 8 2011 9:30 AM EST

Doubling my characters strength to 20M would only increase my damage by 25%.

41.4% actually; but I agree with you :); Not to mention, to gain 10M ST you'd have to do 20M damage.

QBRanger December 8 2011 10:50 AM EST

I think Dude's fears of super strength tanks ruining CB with their massive USD backed axes is a bit overstated.

It takes a lot of damage to increase a tanks strength to a point where increased damage would be noticeable. And there are other melee weapons that have better effects for some tanks.

Per Ranger only, in Ranger's world according to Ranger alone there is a boring of the exbow leech. Best option would be to fix that item. But Ranger and Ranger alone realizes that this will not happen. So this proposed new item is not a "fix" but a patch with some additional nice other factors.

Just threw it out there.

Quyen December 8 2011 11:11 AM EST

soo.. if u got this weapon and fight against someone who has so much AC and a SoC that sucks up all your damage to 0%. would you still get any str?

QBRanger December 8 2011 11:46 AM EST

You would get a bit of strength based upon the x of the weapon. However you would leech no additional strength if your damage is 0.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 8 2011 2:31 PM EST

just changing the part about it allowing you to go over your original strength would take care of my reluctance.

QBRanger December 8 2011 2:32 PM EST

What about capping it at 2x max strength. To give those that do not get farmed by exbow users a chance to have some benefits comparable to the VB or MoD or MH?

Quyen December 8 2011 3:51 PM EST

imagine AA with this on his tank? :D

QBRanger December 8 2011 4:11 PM EST

I am sure a couple characters that us either PL or AS would welcome that change. The MoD is a devastating weapon vs PL and AS. With nearly 20m strength already he would need tons more to noticeable increase his damage output over the eve fits of the MoD.

However this is my sopinion alone and subject to interpretation, parsing, and ridicule.

QBRanger December 8 2011 4:12 PM EST

benefits of the MoD.
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