Please answer my question, defense vs the exbow (in General)


QBRanger December 24 2011 11:20 AM EST

This is a point I have brought up time and time again.

In many different forms.

I have to state this first:

I am not against the exbow draining strength. But... for the NW and xp needed, it is far too effective. Like people use to rail on the MgS on its level of effectiveness.

I have 22M HP, 10M strength, 6.5M dex, 176 AC, and 276 named DB. One hit from Areo's exbow at x15k doing 166k damage drains me from 10M strength to -1.7M strength in 1 hit.

How much more defense is needed?

Yes, of course I can use PL and that would give me 1 more round of attack. Then back to 110% drain in 1 hit.

I could of course use more AC, giving up the TSA or DB or other tank items. But the inate drain of the exbow will take me into the negatives and the higher AC armor lowers my dexterity. But I tried 276 AC and had the same 100% drain vs x10k exbows.

I could use EC and would need 72M or more xp into it. Just to stop 100k hits with a 10k exbow? That is a lot of xp to stop a 1 hit wonder. Too much IMO of course.

I could use EBs to boost my dex, nah.

I could use an AoI, but then I still get hit in the first 3 rounds of missile (I already tried it).

I could use a ToA for more dex, but then lose AC and get hit for more damage. The dex addition of the ToA is nice but not outstanding. It raised my dex to about 10M. I lose the boost from my EC using it.

So, what should be an appropriate amount of defense vs a 1 hit wonder as the exbow?

I think I have given a lot of information and stats about it.

Mikel December 24 2011 11:58 AM EST

I gave up being a ToA archer and I had 15mil dex and +300 dbs and still got nerfed to nothing vs an exbow. How long ago was that? 2-3 years ago?

QBRanger December 24 2011 12:21 PM EST

Another problem I have with this item is that it is not used on most characters by their main minion.

Typically it is a tertiary minion that uses it, given the relatively low strength and dex that is needed to effectively use it to maximum effect. 100% drain. Why have a strength of 10M when 3M does the same effect.

Novice uses it on his only minion. Others use it on their weaker or weakest minions given its great effect.

So again, what is the defense vs this item?

Areodjarekput December 24 2011 12:30 PM EST

Normally I stay out of these threads, but since I'm being named, I'd like to ask one question:

Is there anyone who thinks the Enforcer's Crossbow DOESN'T need to be changed from it's current incarnation?

If the answer is no (as I suspect it is), then all that these threads do is serve as reminders to the people who can make such a change, that it needs to be done. If that is the case, we might be better off bumping one thread where we, unified as a community, agree that a change is needed and try to work out the ideal solution, and not have fifty threads with people arguing that a change is needed because of over specialization or it being OP.

These threads keep popping up, that rehash the same points, instead of working towards creating a viable solution to the problem. Simply restating the issue (clearly) is not likely to produce a change, so why continue to do it? If we, as a community, came up with a solution (EXACT values, with the corresponding numbers to support those values) that could be agreed upon by the majority of us, I think that a change would be more likely to come than if we continue our current method of "I think it's OP", "It's not OP, just too binary and specialized".

By the way Ranger, I don't mean this as a personal attack - I'm just frustrated that we're stuck in this positional argument, rather than just saying, OK, let's come together, and create a fix that we can all agree upon, and propose that to the powers that be. I'd even be willing to throw in some USD to help it it done, if that would help.

QBRanger December 24 2011 12:38 PM EST

By the way Ranger, I don't mean this as a personal attack - I'm just frustrated that we're stuck in this positional argument, rather than just saying, OK, let's come together, and create a fix that we can all agree upon, and propose that to the powers that be. I'd even be willing to throw in some USD to help it it done, if that would help.

I think we have discussed that this is not in any way a personal attack on you. If I were to do a NCB, I do not think I would deviate from what you are doing. Well within the rules.

However, what I get from NS's posts is that the exbow is perfectly fine. That I am complaining that I cannot beat everyone so that is my motivation. At least that is what I read into his posts. I am be wrong but doubt it after years of banging my head against the wall.

As to your other point, I have offered to "come together". I have proposed numerous changes and numerous other items to help with the problems I see with the exbow. I have offered USD to help people program a better item.

The problem is that we cannot all agree. The only person that really matters is Nightstrike and I discussed that above. Jon was even worse in his thinking on the exbow.

As much as I try to give hard facts and show things about it, nothing changes except for one change where enchanters with little strength could have 100% drain. But I view even now 2M strength gives 100% drain vs 10M strength with a smallish damage hit. Due to the inate leech/drain of the exbow.

QBRanger December 24 2011 12:43 PM EST

Sorry I did not answer your question directly:

Is there anyone who thinks the Enforcer's Crossbow DOESN'T need to be changed from it's current incarnation?

Yes, the one person for whom it matters most. Nightstrike. Read his posts in the thread A created.

And he is the one person and the only person that matters.

AdminTitan December 24 2011 12:53 PM EST

Yes, the one person for whom it matters most. Nightstrike. Read his posts in the thread A created.

I don't care what I have said in the past about the exbow, it is not well designed. There is a difference between balanced and well designed. Just the other day I compared the exbow to a coin flip, and I believe that is a perfectly just comparison. When you combine the specific job is plays, the difficulty with it to hit, and the power that it has behind it, it ultimately makes it a very binary acting weapon, that is quite random, two things that should not be in a strategy game. I'd love to hear why NS would think something so binary as the exbow is good for CB, or any strategy game for that matter.

QBRanger December 24 2011 12:56 PM EST

Titan,

Thank you very much for that reply. Sums up things well. I would add that for the coin flip to occur, it takes relatively little xp and NW compared to other weapons in the game.

Yes, the other weapons are good vs most all minions, however, the investment needed for the exbow IMO seems very minor compared to what I can potentially do.

I'd love to hear why NS would think something so binary as the exbow is good for CB, or any strategy game for that matter.

I would also. The only thing I get is that it is good to prevent someone from being able to beat everyone. I read nothing about how little investment is needed. I read nothing and see nothing about how it can be used on a secondary or tertiary or quartiary minion with full effectiveness.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] December 24 2011 1:27 PM EST

Is there anyone who thinks the Enforcer's Crossbow DOESN'T need to be changed from it's current incarnation?

If only to end these threads.

Adios Muchachos December 24 2011 2:52 PM EST

I'm with Bast.

Waldo December 24 2011 5:30 PM EST

Just wanted to get some hard info in one spot to show that the exbow is unbalanced

Just wanted to get some hard info in one spot to show that the exbow is unbalanced

Note 1: the stats listed here are assuming xp is used in the exact same manner for each item (thus removing a variable.) I specifically say this due to the CTH listed for each weapon (well really just the bows since to remove the variable archery could not be trained as that would take xp away from str/dx.)
Note 2: Exbow = Axbow (replacing str with dx of course)


Exbow:
Targeting: highest Str
Base Damage: 4
CTH: 56
Special: Drains Str on hit (with decent NW all of it)

ElBow:
Targeting: first minion
Base Damage: 6
CTH: 20
Special: None

MageSeeker:
Targeting: Highest DD
Base Damage: 5
CTH: 20 (19.8 but i assume that is rounded up)
Special: None

Sling of Death:
Targeting: first minion
Base Damage: 5
CTH: 60
Special: 30% Splash damage on hit

Showing that (given equal xp distribution):
1: bows suck due to low CTH (I know usually the arguement is the opposite due to CTH but that is after archery)
2: Exbows nullify one then move on to the next (due to retargeting each round) & could technically nerf up to 6 tanks (I know, I know) in ranged
3: MsK does not retarget until each DD mage is dead with mages firing for full effect until they die (esp. crucial with FB & MM Mages)

I see 3 "fixes" that would make things more balanced:
1: make MsK drain as well (thus leveling the playing field between mages & tanks)
2: New Item: Gloves of the Cross: reduces drain effects (both stat and VA) by 3% per + (same base & upgrade as BGs)--this gives an direct counter to the xbows but forces one to give up damage due to no BGs
3: Nats solution: nix archery for all-around ranged weapon skill & cap % drain on xbows (tho i think the drain should either be capped at 75%/round or 50%/hit, not 75%/hit)

Just my thoughts: flame-on (because I know some of this will cause it)

QBRanger December 24 2011 5:31 PM EST

The ELB and Mageseeker have CTH of 100 and 99 respectively.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 5:35 PM EST

isn't that only when archery is trained? since without it you take a huge cth pen?

QBRanger December 24 2011 6:18 PM EST

Well you take a huge penalty not just to CTH but also PTH.

I have a 301 MsB. Without archery I get .2 x (301 + 99) or only 80 total to hit.

Waldo December 25 2011 12:13 AM EST

From Wiki:

All bows will fire in all five ranged rounds. However, without Archery trained, bows receive a significant penalty to their base chance to hit (CTH) -- 80% penalty, or a total of 20% CTH. This CTH is where you start before calculating effects from dexterity or plus to hit (PTH). With an Archery trained up to an effect of 1.00, you can minimize this penalty and maximize your base CTH. For all bows other than the Elven Long Bow (ELB), this will maximize at 90% CTH (10% penalty) at an Archery of 1.00. The ELB is the only bow that can achieve a full 100% CTH (no penalty) with full Archery trained. The CTH is interpolated linearly when Archery is somewhere between 0.00 and 1.00:

(Archery * 0.8) + 0.2.


Now the only flaw I know of in this is that the Mageseeker needs to be mentioned since it's CTH caps at 99.
That being said doesn't this line "This CTH is where you start before calculating effects from dexterity or plus to hit (PTH)." seem to indicate that it should NOT affect PTH at all?

QBRanger December 25 2011 12:17 AM EST

In my experience I have found that not using archery really lowers your total to hit. If it did not effect PTH, I would have seen a lot more hits than I did.

Anecdotal of course, but it is what I have seen.

AdminTitan December 25 2011 12:34 AM EST

It affects CTH just like the wiki says... CTH includes PTH. Usually the 8+ year player is right... (but not always)

QBRanger December 25 2011 2:00 AM EST

I think people get confused between the usage of CTH and BTH.

BTH is base to hit, like 60 for a SoD.

CTH is BTH + PTH.

Chance to hit and base to hit are sometimes wrongly used in the wiki. I have been trying to clean it up a bit.

QBRanger December 25 2011 2:02 AM EST

From the wiki:

Base To Hit: 99 (Second highest in the game)

As Waldo posted:

Sling of Death:
Targeting: first minion
Base Damage: 5
CTH: 60
Special: 30% Splash damage on hit

In this case CTH should be BTH.

QBRanger December 25 2011 3:51 PM EST

Ok,

Still my initial question has not been answered.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] December 25 2011 4:02 PM EST



1) Use the exbow or axbow yourself.

2) SoC +BL to take advantage of all that hp in the absence of strength.

3) I think the quick ranged kill is not viable anymore.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 4:10 PM EST

I don't think number 2 is viable, since you still have minimal str you can't do any damage and BL only works in melee doesn't it? so your negative str by the time you get there.

Demigod December 25 2011 4:14 PM EST

#1 is horrible just for making someone use an item to avoid having it used on themselves.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] December 25 2011 4:16 PM EST

Everyone uses the HoC, TSA and other items. What is the difference?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 25 2011 4:18 PM EST

#2 actually works quite well. I pushed nov into switching from exbow to axbow in order to beat me before through use of the SoC.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 4:20 PM EST

as ranger stated.. novices exbow, is one that is on the fence for working well but not being op. I think that makes a huge difference.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 4:20 PM EST

x2k or whatever to x10k is a huge difference.

QBRanger December 25 2011 4:43 PM EST

#2 actually works quite well.

Actually in real life gameplay it sucks.

I tried it with a MoD and a SoC and vs characters like Piper or Areo's I did no damage to their familiar. The stored damage from the exbow is low as its damage is low.

It is NOT a viable defense.

So again,

What is supposed to be adequate defense vs the exbow?

I keep reading that I do not have adequate defense and I have a huge hole in my strat that allows the exbow to do me in.

So what am I doing wrong? 6.5M Dex, 276 DB, 10M str and 22M HP with 176 AC. What more should I do?

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] December 25 2011 4:51 PM EST

Did you use it with bloodlust? or a morg? I know bloodlust makes a huge difference.

QBRanger December 25 2011 4:58 PM EST

AB:

For the SoC/MH to work one has to take a lot of physical damage.

A lot of exbow characters use the exbow and a huge DD spell or familiar.

To rely on the SoC/MH with or without bloodlust is fools gold. Even getting hit for 1M damage a round is not much when the SG is doing 7M a round guaranteed.

When I fight novice, his exbow acts as I believe it should. 1 hit takes my damage from 1.6M a hit to about 1.0M. A 2nd takes it to about 600k and so on. No 1 hit = 500 damage.

We have to get rid of the inate leech of the exbow at least as a start as once you get to x10k, you get almost 100% leech in 1 hit that is not PL.

Also, another problem with the SoC/MH theory. I use high DBs to stop from getting hit with the exbow. Therefore I do not get hit enough in melee to charge up the SoC. I know, I know, it is my choice to use high DB, however, one has to try to avoid being scratched with the exbow as we all can see 1 hit = 10+M strength loss.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] December 25 2011 5:04 PM EST

Why not try an robf on your tank. Added evasion may help to preserve the strength and if you get drained you have the robf damage. Also getting protection from dd.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 5:10 PM EST

good idea but still doesn't work.

I have 103 evasion Zheg has +91 on his exbow, I had (pretty sure he changed some stuff) about 500k dex on him, I am able to dodge most of his attacks but it doesn't matter, as that one hit, puts my str into the negative. game over.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 5:11 PM EST

the second you put a tat on your character you loose that TSA/Cloak

which means he just dropped his str/dex more. no hp regen. less armor.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 5:12 PM EST

I don't like using mages, i prefer tanks/archers, why should I HAVE to run a mage/tatto just to deal with one item

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:13 PM EST

Why not try an robf on your tank. Added evasion may help to preserve the strength and if you get drained you have the robf damage. Also getting protection from dd.

Just as A states.

Also, with my DBs as high as they are, the added evasion from the RBF matters little.

I will lose 60% strength bonus and 14% dex bonus due to using a tattoo.

Even Piper with 7M dex is infrequently hitting AA with his 15M dex. But if all it takes is 1 hit to drain 20+M strength, what's the point of playing a tank?

AdminTitan December 25 2011 6:45 PM EST

Look guys, Ranger isn't looking for advice, he's wondering why something that is bad for gameplay is still in the game. As for why it's bad, I don't think anyone has responded to my post 20 or so ago.

QBRanger December 25 2011 9:33 PM EST

Look guys, Ranger isn't looking for advice, he's wondering why something that is bad for gameplay is still in the game.

Actually in this post I am looking at what is adequate defense vs the exbow?

400AC? multiple PL? 100M HP? 100M Str? 500 DB?

What exactly is the big hole in my strat that any normal missile user has that allows the exbow to do its deal on my character?

I know I have a hole vs decay and accept that as part of the normal game. It is something that in the process of playing an archer I can avoid numerous ways.

But how do I avoid the exbow without having to really gimp my archer almost to the point of not being able to play an adequate one?

The only realistic answer is to use the exbow myself on my other minion. But really? that is the answer to having an adequate defense?

I wish NS would answer as to what I should be doing with my archer to have an 'adequate' defense vs the exbow.

QBRanger December 25 2011 9:43 PM EST

I will give an example.

If I complained that decay was OP then an appropriate response would be:

"move your 2nd minion to the front and use an AoI".

Something that does not nerf my character to avoid 1 item or spell.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 25 2011 9:56 PM EST

Drop DM for EC

QBRanger December 25 2011 10:02 PM EST

OK,

SO that is 1 thing that defends vs the exbow. But only if you spend tens of millions of xp.

I know things are a choice, but does not having to invest 72M xp into a 6M EC seem a bit excessive to defend vs 1 item?

6M EC vs most tanks does nothing so it is basically to help only vs the exbow.

Does anyone else think this is a bit excessive? but it is a "hole" in my defense.

But why is not 22M HP, 10M str, 6.5m dex, and 276 DBs not adequate enough?

QBRanger December 25 2011 10:04 PM EST

IE,

If someone asked how to defend vs my MSB I could give them at least 3 possibly 5 ways. Some would be dependant on xp, others NW, others on minion spell levels. But more than 1 way to try to defend.

I, so far, have only seen 1. Drop DM for EC.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 10:04 PM EST

No, I totally agree Ranger, I do not want to drop DM for EC, DM does far more for me then EC would, I mean obviously EC only affects str/dex on tank based characters. DM affects a wide variety of spells and hurts tanks/mages alike.

QBRanger December 25 2011 10:13 PM EST

Still,

There are those that rightfully can say CB is a choice.

You choose to use DM to help vs 10 characters while you can use EC to help vs 1 or 2.

I disagree, however, it can be a valid discussion.

But if it is the only way to defend vs the Exbow, that is wrong. IMO of course. Obviously exbows can drain 100% of strength with a hit of less than 1% of current HP. Obviously exbows can drain over 15M strength in 1 hit. Obviously exbows can hit vs 276 DBs.

So where are the options about how to defend against one other than completely nuke your character using EC.

Imagine if all archers had to use EC? There would be no more archers in CB. At least I know of 5 that would quit playing one.

And please note, this post is not a "but I cannot beat everyone, whine, whine, whine".

I cannot beat 2 character and am starting to lose to a 3rd. I just want to know what options there are vs the exbow.

We currently have 1, nerf the character using EC instead of DM. Not much of a choice for archers and missile weapon users.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 25 2011 10:18 PM EST

sigh.

First, you asked for 1 answer. EC is 1 answer. Also, EC does not just solve your exbow problem. It is much broader than that, for one it can allow you to be freed up to drop the DB's if you like. You also will get a better dex advantage vs the other team.

But why is not 22M HP, 10M str, 6.5m dex, and 276 DBs not adequate enough?

I need to say a couple things again. First, your str has nothing to do with exbow defense, absolutely nothing. You can have 1 mil, you can have 999 mil, it won't change things.

Second, that is not and efficient setup to defense vs the exbow. You have very high hp, moderate dex and high db. You are setup to force through GA and fight archers.

If you are actually looking to fight exbows, you could instead go for high hp high AC (worked for me). Or you could go for high dex high db (probably harder and won't get you 100% but it will be basically impossible to farm you with an exbow), you can go EC (probably the absolute best way to fight exbow), you can go with SoC (DB are discouraged for this as that is totally inefficient), you could swap into the exbow yourself (first strike on offense, though you might still get farmed so this isn't the best way to go), or you could not make your team absolutely dependent on your one tank (multiple damage sources means you are more balanced and will probably have some sort of workable offense vs every team).

QBRanger December 25 2011 10:32 PM EST

*Frustration*

One by one:

If you are actually looking to fight exbows, you could instead go for high hp high AC (worked for me).

I tried 276 AC with an nice adam and it did nothing. How much does one have to nerf their archer, that is take away from their ability to damage, before you get adequate exbow defense. And if I use CML instead of DB, I get hit numerous times with the exbow and while it may leech less, hits a lot more often.

Maybe if we got rid of the inate exbow leech, high AC would make a difference.

Or you could go for high dex high db (probably harder and won't get you 100% but it will be basically impossible to farm you with an exbow)

I thought the exbow was dependant on my hp. So if I unlearn hp to boost dex I get hit for a higher percentage which is more certain 100% leech. I can lose strength and boost dex but then I nerf my damage to unusable levels.

you can go EC (probably the absolute best way to fight exbow),

Yes, that is one way we discussed. Lose 10 to not be farmed by 2. And bascially wreck any archer you want to make. I do not think an archer is viable without DM or a massive AMF. Not using a large EC alone. Certainly not at the levels one fights near the top.

you can go with SoC (DB are discouraged for this as that is totally inefficient),

I have tried the SoC and it does little other than lower the damage I do. You see with some exbows doing less than 1% damage to me draining 100%, the SoC is no help.

you could swap into the exbow yourself (first strike on offense, though you might still get farmed so this isn't the best way to go),

Use a broken item to counter a broken item. That is the classic line of defense trying to justify a broken item

or you could not make your team absolutely dependent on your one tank (multiple damage sources means you are more balanced and will probably have some sort of workable offense vs every team).

Have you looked at my character? I have a huge DD, 16M levels and a tank. How much more diversity do you want for a 2 minion character?

So we are left with the following:

High AC, which does not work due to the inate leech of the exbow draining 100% or more in 1 hit.

Use EC and completely nerf my ability to beat people

Use the exbow myself and fight an idiot weapon with my own.

Drop 5M strength and learn 5M dex. Making the proportion of damage higher per exbow hit perhaps getting hit less. This is the really only serious thought. More dex. Fight the dex vs dex battle.

In reality that is a losing proposition as exbow users can use EBs and EGs while archers use DBs and BGs. So you are fighting a 1 to 1.5 ratio of dex gain vs exbow users.

So is there any way to keep being an archer and defend vs the exbow? Perhaps that should have been my first question.

QBRanger December 25 2011 10:40 PM EST

Also,

If archers were not handicapped by needed to use a skill, wasting xp, to use an item just to normal, I would be more than happy to boost my dex.

But as archers, we are forced to spend/waste xp into a skill just to be able to use our weapon at 100% effect.

I understand that and mildly disagree with its reasoning compared to no skill needed to use the exbow properly. Just it is yet another handicap archers have vs exbow users.

And yes, Nat, you have provided great solutions to the exbow problems. However, until something is enacted, it is still a huge problem and a very divisive item in CB.

Django December 25 2011 10:41 PM EST

Well, all I can say is only defense against the ex bow is my encumbrance. If only I had more encumbrance then I could have a bigger ex bow! A lot bigger :)

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 10:43 PM EST

EC is still only going to help vs tank based teams, DM is still a better choice giving the amount of things it dispells. to loose that just to defend against exbows seems wasted to me, given when those exbow teams have spells that need to be dispelled so do non exbow teams.

High AC, is very expensive, not to mention you can't have all your bonuses from the armor you should be wearing as an archer/tank. i mean how many archers/tanks run wall armor effectively? i could be wrong but i doubt there is many. you would need AP, and that kills your archery/BL/Evasion whatever you were going to do. and the hits to you str/dex would not be worth it.

SoC is kinda out of the question too, as you already lost all your str before you even get to hit and use the bonus, mind you i could be wrong but don't you still need str to hit and get damage + the bonus damage, i doubt just the bonus damage alone would be enough.

having to use an exbow to defend against exbows is kinda dumb. your not an archer anymore, and would probably have to invest in a melee weapon now, because as everyone keeps stating the damage on the exbow is minimal. thus this is a very expensive route as well.

As for the hiring more minions and having multiple damages sources yes this is probably the best idea. But should it really be a requirement now so that exbows can't hurt you? I prefer single minion builds why should I have to run multiple minions now just because the exbow is jacked up? I dunno just MHO.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 25 2011 10:47 PM EST

You have not done heavy AC. 276 is moderate AC. You need over 350, more like 380 without SS before its heavy AC. If you had SS backing it up then yes 276 might be enough, barely.

So if I unlearn hp to boost dex I get hit for a higher percentage which is more certain 100% leech.

Yes, you will get hit for 100% much more often, but if you are aiming for not getting hit at all, why would you care at all that if they hit it would be for 100%. I've also said, it won't let you win 100%, trying to get them down to 0 cth is a little too hard, but you can push it down to the point where they will never be able to farm you at all. (basically you will win 80-90% of the time simply because they can't hit).

Archers can work without DM. Its not the end of the world to do things that isn't part of the current mainstream.

SoC requires that you actually try to take hits. It won't work if you dodge everything but 1-2 hits...

Use a broken item to counter a broken item. That is the classic line of defense trying to justify a broken item

I also said this was one of the worse ways to go about countering it.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 10:47 PM EST

sorry ranger you beat me to it and said it all the same but better... lol

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 10:51 PM EST

Off topic here for a sec.. how much would 350AC cost over 200million cbd? how much does one need in an exbow to gimp a tank? my guess is much less

QBRanger December 25 2011 10:54 PM EST

Archers can work without DM. Its not the end of the world to do things that isn't part of the current mainstream.

I have yet to see one, a pure archer not use DM.

If I do not use DM, I do 0 damage to heavy AC/SS characters. Just to avoid a broken item? C'mon.

I can very much see your point about dexterity. However, it is not easy to have a huge dex and still have xp left for HP and str AND the skill you are forced to use to use your item at normal effectiveness.

And trying to get BTH to 0 just to avoid getting hit 1 time = not broken? to me that is the most broken part of the item.

But even at 376 AC, does not the inate leech of the exbow at 10k drain one almost 100% anyway?

And how many heavy AC archers are there out there. To get there one would have to get rid of DB for CML which is lowering of dex since archers CANNOT use AP. Getting rid of the TSA and its str addition for adam with its huge Dex penalty, and getting rid of the HoC for a HoD. So more AC, getting hit a lot, I mean a LOT more due to the huge dex penalties that cannot be halved by AP since you are FORCED to use archery to use your weapon at normal effectiveness.

Giving up a lot of strength and damage in the process to avoid one broken item? Seems a lot to give up to prevent getting 100% 1 hit drained. If people do not see that as very unbalanced I give up.

Having to basically nerf a character to prevent a 1 hit wonder is extremely bad game design.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 25 2011 11:14 PM EST

Wall Armor on a tank/archer.

AC, Negative 8% to DX and Skills.
SC, No penalty to DX or Skills
CML, Negative 4% to DX and Skills. or BoF, Negative 2% to DX and Skills.
TG, NO penalty to DX or Skills. or BG, No penalty to DX or Skills.
HoD, Negative 1% to DX and Skills. or HoE/HoC, No penalty to DX or Skills.
MS, Negative 4% to DX and Skills with 1-handed melee weapons.
MS, Negative 16% to DX and Skills with 2-handed melee weapons.

17% with 1 handed and CMLs, 15% with BoF and 1 handed.
29% with 2 handed and CMLs, 27% with BoF and 2 handed.

that's 15% more exp you have to use on your skill and dex. in the best case. 29% in the worst. i just don't see that as a good idea without using AP to half that and then you have no Archer/BL or Evasion. not to mention you aren't getting really any bonuses... just seems expensive and problematic.. having to dish out all that extra exp, takes from anything else you wanted exp in. just my two cents.

Phoenix [The Forgehood] December 25 2011 11:26 PM EST

373 AC is 38.3m.
It's getting over 400 that gets really expensive.
Note that the AC gives about half protection from DD damage as well, assuming you use SS

QBRanger December 26 2011 12:47 AM EST

That is if your SS casts.

I think more than 1/2 the characters in CB use DM.

Quyen December 26 2011 4:47 AM EST

I have yet to see one, a pure archer not use DM.

Roddy, which was used in the tourney :D

Sickone December 26 2011 10:24 AM EST

The only REAL defense against an ExBow is...
:drum roll:
...ANOTHER ExBow.
Backed by a PL wall and whatnot else to guarantee a nullification of the enemy ExBow damage to negligible levels before yours gets wiped out.

Which is pretty junk, if you ask me.

QBRanger December 26 2011 11:41 AM EST

Pretty sad.

However, in Nat's defense she does give one defense.

One needs very high dex, very high DB, very high AC and very high HP. Strength apparently does not matter even though it is the very stat that is drained <--- seems very illogical to me.

Unfortunately I have 2 of the 4 requirements and one really needs all 4 to be successful.

Perhaps one can get away with just very high dex and DBs if one can prevent getting hit 1 or 2 times (PL minions can help unless they use EC as well to drain the PL minion to 0 str). However, with a lower AC that one has with a ToA you are really only praying not to get hit at all.

Still pretty sad IMO.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 26 2011 12:04 PM EST

If the goal of the exbow is countering entirely offensive strats, why would you use an offensive stat for comparison?

QBRanger December 26 2011 12:16 PM EST

If the goal of the exbow is countering entirely offensive strats, why would you use an offensive stat for comparison?

Maybe it is just me. But if one is trying to nerf an opponents strength, should not their actual strength matter?

Sort of like using AMF but not using the targets DD level for calculations.

One can of course use EC as the counter example to AMF, however EC does not do a % of leech like the exbow, it does a fixed amount.

As the exbow does a proportion of strength why is not the targets strength used in the calcuations?

I never really understood that point about the exbow.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 26 2011 12:39 PM EST

Ok maybe I was being too subtle...

It uses HP to attempt to force offensively focused teams to train HP.

Archers go first, and need far far far less HP than a melee tank would, the exbow uses HP because of this. Making the stat would would reward offensive teams for being even more offensively focused.

I'm trying hard not to be thick headed about your point, but I find it hard to believe you don't understand the logic used

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 26 2011 12:49 PM EST

While I totally agree, I can see why Rangers asking.

If you look at other offensive counters, they are all versus the offensive stat.

Bar the EXBow.

AMF versus DD. You up your DD to oppose AMF, you don't up your HP.
DBs versus PTH. You up your PTH, which ups your offense.
EC versus STR/DEX.
Etc.

The EXBow is different to this, and I still feel it's down to the power of 'going first'. Which CB has struggled with at least since I started playing.

Mikel December 26 2011 12:55 PM EST

why don't you allow a couple of days for a free retrain and we can all "test" strats against the ex-bow and see just how viable it really is?

QBRanger December 26 2011 12:58 PM EST

It uses HP to attempt to force offensively focused teams to train HP.

O tay, I have 22M HP. And it does nothing vs x10k exbows.

Archers go first, and need far far far less HP than a melee tank would, the exbow uses HP because of this. Making the stat would would reward offensive teams for being even more offensively focused.

One can use both HP and strength. I just do not see why strength is not used at all. One would think it is easier to drain someone with 1M strength than someone with 10M strength.

If one likes to use the poison analogy (which frequently is used), it is easier or harder to poison someone weighing 100 lbs vs 300 lbs. The 300 lber has more HP and more strength.

I'm trying hard not to be thick headed about your point, but I find it hard to believe you don't understand the logic used

I cannot understand why strength, the stat being effected, is not used. Still I cannot.

GL stated my thinking almost perfectly.

QBRanger December 26 2011 1:00 PM EST

And novice,

While the exbow uses HP in calculations, if it is a choice between higher HP/lower str and higher str/lower hp, I would use the former by far.

As an increase in strength only gives little more damage, while more hp works great in more survivability.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 26 2011 1:46 PM EST

yea that is kinda weird you would think the amount of str it drains would be based on the amount of str rather then the amount of hp. and if 22m hp isn't enough to stop draining all str then how much is needed 50m hp, 100m hp?

QBRanger December 26 2011 1:56 PM EST

We reached a point, just like we did with AC a while ago, where we sort of hit a hard cap. 100% drain at 15k for sure, and most 10k exbows do 100% drain to all but the very top hp characters.

Can someone say rescale at least?

The one thing that has to be done is get rid of the inate drain of the exbow based upon its x. If it is to drain, have it be solely based upon damage done. Then the x actually matters and a hard cap is not reached.

At the very very least.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2011 12:17 AM EST

QBRanger December 27 2011 12:50 AM EST

Not real sure of your point there novice.

On the one hand you were able to neutralize AA's tattoo of nearly 20 million and all his learned strength and dexterity along with 540M NW in weapons.

On the other hand you have a nice exbow worth about 1/2 that in NW. You did not use a tattoo, have a bit more xp investment in stats. About 4 million more levels.

You were able to hit him enough to drain his stats.

For how I see it, that is quite a powerful weapon against any tank. And at least 1/2 of the damage minions in CB are tanks.

To sum.

In your case an investment of no tattoo, 1/2 their NW in weapons and just a bit more xp, let you nerf one of the top two tanks in the game. That is a good trade off as I see it. Perhaps NS sees it the opposite way.

However, what about those at the lower levels? People without USD who want to play tanks. Let us be realistic, it is a different game USD vs non-USD and Jon/NS try to make it as even as possible. ENC, NW-PR are all attempts to balance the USD vs non-USD player.

The exbow is a classic attempt, since the beginning of CB2. However, it fails miserably. Even if the balance is correct, the binary nature of the item, along with its hard cap of about x10-15k makes it unlike anything else in CB. It is like a coin flip. Hit and win, miss and lose. Makes this game, which relies on strategy so much, degenerate into a coin-flip type game. CB is too good for that.

I have always wanted it to work in another way. Gradual and make the balance on the amount of drain. I at one time suggested an AMF type drain like we calculate DD vs AMF. Others, including Nat, have suggested something else.

But I think most of us believe something should be done. However, only 1 person really matters. NS. And if by now he cannot see it, with all the posts, then that is fine. I will not be posting anymore on the subject of the exbow.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2011 12:53 AM EST

My only point was that defending against the highest plus exbow in game is quite doable...

and that if the exbow is adjusted in how it drains, it's to hit has to also be addressed

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2011 1:04 AM EST

IM's damn JKF is a miss fest as well... it's just not a reliable weapon against top tier tanks

Adjust it's drain and change ranged to hit (and penalties) across the board

QBRanger December 27 2011 1:10 AM EST

My only point was that defending against the highest plus exbow in game is quite doable...
and that if the exbow is adjusted in how it drains, it's to hit has to also be addressed

I look at it like he did not defend at all. You hit him and drained all his strength. Therefore all that damage he could do with his huge MoD and his 20M strength is useless for potentially 44 rounds. And I call 1k a round useless.

In your battles with AA 11 round draw, it seems that he loses about 8.5M damage. Based upon 850k a hit (what he does to me) and 2 hits a round. Imagine if the battle went 30 rounds. He would lose over 42.5M damage. Is that not excessive from just 2 hits with a weapon?

I don't know about the hit rate. It all depends on how much he adjusts the drain. One cannot pontificate about this until we solve the first problem. The binary nature of the drain. And having inate constant drain that reaches 100%.

QBRanger December 27 2011 1:18 AM EST

IM's damn JKF is a miss fest as well... it's just not a reliable weapon against top tier tanks

Certainly novice. At the very top of the game, with all the USD players slugging it out, the exbow still manages to hit one of the 2 top tanks in the game. And miss the highest junctioned JKF.

But what about the lower ranks. How about all the non-USD players like LEGO getting eaten up by them. Picasso anyone (just noticed he retired Guernica)?

I sometimes myself forget how different the game is at the top ranks than the bottom. The exbow, however, is not one of those times.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2011 1:35 AM EST

It's an overly specialized, ineffective, and frustrating weapon.

The sad part is that it's the best we've got in the war to keep melee tanks viable. Nothing I've see from you would do anything for melee tanks against Archers and ranged DD.

Honestly I think the best solution for the time being would be a reset of STR to it's starting point first round of melee. Leave the exbow as it is (sucky and painful with nobody happy) and just give melee tanks another chance. This would encourage the offensive ranged teams to defend a bit, and invest in melee, as well as boost the existing melee teams. I'd take that solution even without a fix to the terrible to-hit.

QBRanger December 27 2011 1:39 AM EST

Honestly I think the best solution for the time being would be a reset of STR to it's starting point first round of melee.

I completely agree!!!

It is the simplest and easiest solution that will satisfy most if not all of CB.

Note, it is not the "best" solution.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2011 1:50 AM EST

now about this whole 10k and AC doesn't matter business... how come my x10k exbow takes 7 hits to drain dude?

QBRanger December 27 2011 3:01 AM EST

I would like to see if Areo can drain Dude completely in 1 hit.

But you drain me in 1 hit. If the one of the ways to protect vs the exbow is 420 AC backed by a large SS, count me unimpressed. Maybe 1 tank in all of CB will ever get that high AC. We need to be chatting about realistic minions and the AC they will or will not have.

To still be effective as a tank.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 27 2011 8:29 AM EST

i try to keep enough strength on my tankwall so that the exbow will not switch targets in ranged and i can still channel my damage through the reduction of my wall so that it doesn't suck out more xp from my pl minion.

when i fight areo's guy, the targeting stays on my tankwall until the last round of range when it switches to rogue.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 27 2011 8:35 AM EST

Moon's Spawn hit tankwall for no damage
Moon's Spawn hit tankwall [10,719]
phantom looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [10,719]
Moon's Spawn hit tankwall for no damage
Kurald Galain shot tankwall for no damage
Kurald Galain shot tankwall for no damage
phantom regenerated 9,648 HP

Moon's Spawn hit tankwall [17,601]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [17,601]
Moon's Spawn hit tankwall for no damage
Moon's Spawn hit tankwall for no damage
Kurald Galain shot tankwall for no damage
Kurald Galain hit tankwall for no damage
phantom regenerated 15,841 HP

Moon's Spawn shot tankwall [12,383]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [12,383]
Moon's Spawn shot tankwall for no damage
Moon's Spawn shot tankwall [27,903]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [27,903]
Kurald Galain hit tankwall [1]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [1]
Kurald Galain shot tankwall for no damage
phantom regenerated 36,259 HP

Moon's Spawn hit tankwall [8,850]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [8,850]
Moon's Spawn hit tankwall for no damage
Moon's Spawn shot tankwall [19,624]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [19,624]
Kurald Galain hit tankwall [4]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [4]
phantom regenerated 25,631 HP

Moon's Spawn hit tankwall [23,759]
tankwall looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [23,759]
Moon's Spawn hit tankwall [29,529]
phantom absorbs damage [29,529]
Moon's Spawn shot tankwall [34,103]
phantom absorbs damage [34,103]
Moon's Spawn shot tankwall [19,134]
phantom absorbs damage [19,134]
Kurald Galain undershot rogue
phantom regenerated 95,875 HP

Moon's Spawn shot rogue [255,781]
rogue looks weaker!
phantom absorbs damage [255,781]
Moon's Spawn hit rogue [249,164]
phantom absorbs damage [249,164]
Moon's Spawn hit rogue [315,216]
phantom absorbs damage [315,216]
Satan's Gift takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (404,565)!
Satan's Gift touches rogue [2,104,204]
phantom absorbs damage [2,104,204]
Kurald Galain takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (468,003)!
Kurald Galain touches rogue [838,683]
phantom absorbs damage [838,683]

i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work. i really do wish that we could have a special way of posting battle logs so that we wouldn't have to lose formatting by changing tags or add padding to make it work.

Quyen December 27 2011 9:32 AM EST

dude.. was that spam neccessary?

Areodjarekput December 27 2011 9:44 AM EST

Q, "Kurald", "Galain", and "tankwall" are all flagged by the spellchecker. The spam was necessary to get around the 20% limit, although he could have used the nospellcheck tags, or taken a screenshot XD

AdminTitan December 27 2011 9:51 AM EST

although he could have used the nospellcheck

This isn't a very good solution for long posts that you've already formatted; b/c you have to go back through it and reformat the entire thing in html.

Areodjarekput December 27 2011 9:53 AM EST

I thought he did it to prove a point about minion names being included in the spellchecker, or some such, however that is a good point as well.

...however, in Notepad++, you could record a macro to add <br> tags to each line :)

TH3 C0113CT0R December 27 2011 1:01 PM EST

216Mill cbd, all named armor, totally out to 472 armor, how big is the exbow attacking you...

LOL, i dont' know about anyone else, but i sure as hell can't afford, 15mil DBs, much less 216m for wall armor...

NOT A VIABLE SOLUTION.


like ranger said the game at the top is different then the game at the bottom... seriously.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 27 2011 1:05 PM EST

seriously... comparing a long standing possibly usd investor, definitely spend usd naming... against a NCB thats hasn't spend a red cent of usd is totally one sided.

lostling December 27 2011 1:39 PM EST

perhaps NightStrike could list the actual str drain numbers beside the damage dealt...
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003GKf">Please answer my question, defense vs the exbow</a>