forum talk (in General)

Unappreciated Misnomer June 12 2013 2:07 PM EDT


Viole June 12 2013 2:09 PM EDT

It's been decades since I've last encountered someone on here.

Unappreciated Misnomer June 12 2013 4:23 PM EDT

It's the new chat!

So anyone at e3? Or wanna talk about carnage?

Viole June 12 2013 5:04 PM EDT

Hm.. During a N*B, does the increasing PR offset rewards lost from gradually decreasing challenge bonuses, or would it be better to keep PR just low enough to maximize CB?

Also, The Rains of Castamere made me tear up. Damn Ninjas cutting onions.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 12 2013 5:17 PM EDT

I'm free!

(cookie for getting the reference. ;) )

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] June 12 2013 5:42 PM EDT

e3, when is ff15 coming out?

Unappreciated Misnomer June 12 2013 6:28 PM EDT

Aug 27th for FF XIV: a realm reborn

Can't help you brother.

ThatOneMan June 12 2013 7:27 PM EDT

E3 made me so angry. Learned How Awesome Xbox One is and really wanted it. Then I found out about there policy and now I'm sad.

Dudster4 June 12 2013 8:08 PM EDT

Yea I dunno about the new Xbox. Non of it effects me really as I'm always connected to the internet, never borrow or rent games and seldom do I buy used ones. It just seems like developers won't wanna make great games for a console with that many restrictions and that scares me.

[Unrivaled]Twist Of Fate [SeeD] June 13 2013 12:06 AM EDT

I've been a faithful Xbox user for around 8 years and honestly I don't know if I'll be staying with them because of this. There are many times that I intentionally disable my internet to play a few games with friends at home, or my fiancee and if I have no choice but to connectto play, that's absurd. Microsoft have slowly been implementing more and more restrictions and rules. Seems totalitarian to me. I agree it is becoming sad.


Dudster4 June 13 2013 6:49 AM EDT

The only thing that might keep me leaning toward the Xbox are the couple Halo games slated to be made of the next few years.

Unappreciated Misnomer June 13 2013 6:58 AM EDT

Yea being connected is a pain and some games like fallout worked better signed out and froze a lot less.

[Unrivaled]Twist Of Fate [SeeD] June 13 2013 6:37 PM EDT

Fallout was king of freezing while online. Even my some of my Final Fantasy games played better offline. I understand that they only want you to sign in at least once every 24 hours, but i go days and weeks without playing. Besides, this, in my opinion is just another market ploy to force everyone who buys an Xbox to pay the additional 60$ a year to be a member of Xbox live. It's crap and unfortunate.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 13 2013 6:38 PM EDT

Bahaha the situation between Sony and Microsoft is a total reversal of last generation. Last time it was Sony with their botched launch of the PS3 setting them way back in the market by a couple years. This time Microsoft screwed up big time and they will be biting this bullet for the next couple years of the consoles lifespan.

I'm expecting most of these restrictions to be dropped after Microsoft realizes they've lost a massive portion of their user base.

Thank god I'm a PC gamer, because now is sure the time to be one ;P

Though there is one thing I DO agree with, and I take the stance very strongly as someone who used to work for gamestop and also wanted to get into the games industry. The used game market (I.E: GameStop, EBgames, NOT individuals selling their games to other individuals) is a detriment to the industry as a whole. Not a single dime of used games sales goes to the developers, which has lead to crappier and crappier AAA titles from big devs. Gamestop's aggressive force of selling used games has literally been killing the industry since they started.

However, as I said, if one person wants to sell their copy of a game they don't want anymore to another person, I'm perfectly fine with this. It's the companies that rake in profits over the used game market that disgust me.

My 2 cents.

Microsoft.. for shame.

Unappreciated Misnomer June 13 2013 7:02 PM EDT

The reason games got worse because of the game trading industry is absurd. That's a terrible excuse because it's been going on since day one. It's like saying the quality of books got worse because of used book stores made money buying and re selling and the writer and publishers did not get a cut. Again a bad reason from the gaming industry.

This time around ps4 users will be required to buy a psplus(xblive) membership to play online. I'm not even mad at this change.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] June 13 2013 11:08 PM EDT

Xeno, I think the problem with big title games has nothing to do with the used selling.

They want more money. They make lamer n lamer games to appeal to wider audiences. They hype it up with super awesome graphics (which I care nothing for) and boring story lines that a 2 year old could follow.

They continue to reuse things that have worked in the past rather than trying now innovated ideas. How many cookie cutter halos and CoDs do we need?

I loved Halo, but I think it is funny when my friends get excited for the next new one and talk to me about it. I am like, why would I care? If I want to play Halo I will just play the first one. I don't have to purchase a new console every time they release a new one.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 14 2013 7:30 PM EDT

The reason games got worse because of the game trading industry is absurd. That's a terrible excuse because it's been going on since day one. It's like saying the quality of books got worse because of used book stores made money buying and re selling and the writer and publishers did not get a cut. Again a bad reason from the gaming industry.

That's the worst comparison I've ever heard. Games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to develop, plus they have pay for their sometimes 200+ sized teams working on one game, pay for advertising, pay to actually make a physical copy of the game. Then what happens? A handful of people buy the game at full price, and all that money goes to the devs, this is good. Less then a week later there are tons of used copies of games on the shelves that start being sold. More people buy used then new, go into any gamestops records and you will prove that without a shadow of a doubt, including games that have been out for less then a week. Not a single dime of used games sales go to devs.

How much does it cost for 1-2 people maybe even a small team of people to write a book. Basically nothing, especially if they don't get paid until after they've finished the book and it's hit the shelves.

Meanwhile you have to pay every single employee for the 2-5 years it takes to develop a AAA title game. See the obvious discrepancy there?

Which will bring me to EoD post.

Xeno, I think the problem with big title games has nothing to do with the used selling.
They want more money. They make lamer n lamer games to appeal to wider audiences. They hype it up with super awesome graphics (which I care nothing for) and boring story lines that a 2 year old could follow.

They want more money, because they don't make nearly what they should be from the game. If every single person bought their game new in the first 6 months of its release, we'd be having a whole different discussion. But that is not the case, and I've worked in the industry long enough to see it first hand.

It costs money to develop a game with everything you're talking about, money they honestly do not have. Which brings me to the next point.

They continue to reuse things that have worked in the past rather than trying now innovated ideas. How many cookie cutter halos and CoDs do we need?

They continue to reuse things because they know it works, and its cheap to reuse the same engine over and over, the same game mechanics over and over. It adds nearly nothing to development costs to add onto a cookie cutter game franchise and stupid consumers buy it. Feeding into the mindset "Well this is how we'll make profit"

Innovation from big developers is dead, I'm officially declaring this (obviously my opinion). To innovate a brand new idea or IP is extremely costly from a AAA dev and if the profit margin on it is low (which it is), then why would you even bother wasting the resources? They wont, they'll stick with the formula that works.

If the dev's were able to sell their entire stock of a game at "New" full price, they'd have WAY more money to actually innovate and take risks on games. Right now they don't want to take risks.

This is why the indie game scene has blown up exponentially in the last couple years, smaller dev teams with less time restrictions, less risks they have to worry about, these are the people making truly innovative and new games on small budgets raking in massive profits.. why? Because they've gone full digital distribution. Nearly all profits from game sales go directly to them, allowing them to make more games, take more risks, and produce better over all quality products.

AAA devs do not have this luxury anymore, hence why we have a million CoD clones on consoles its literally the most profitable thing they can get away with producing. This is also why we are seeing crap tons of DLC, big devs are trying their hardest to recoup as much of the dev cost as possible while still making a large enough profit to produce their next game, which is likely to be another cookie cutter game just so they keep themselves afloat.

Console gaming for me died ~3 years into Xbox360 and PS3s life cycle. Nearly any good game that is released for either console almost inevitably makes it's way to the PC. Quite frankly neither company has any exclusives that I want to play, so it's utterly worthless for me to get either of the new systems.

But hey, my opinion, my two cents.

Totalbiscuit does a far better rant on the subject then I ever could, and he's got more credibility then I ever will.

I highly highly highly recommend watching his video in its entirety then come back her and tell me whether or not you still hold the exact opinions you currently do. Not saying that you'll do a full 360 and be like "Oh yeah you're right, used games are bad for the industry" but maybe you'll have a better understanding as to why, and you're position may change a bit. I'm interested to know if it does change any opinions. And if it doesn't, well then it doesn't, not really much more you can do on the subject of opinions.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 14 2013 7:46 PM EDT

Also one final thing I wanted to add: Are you ok with people Pirating games and never paying for them? That's essentially the same thing that the used games industry creates, obviously through a different method, but the end result is the same. The game dev never sees an ounce of profit for their work.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 14 2013 8:08 PM EDT

^ forgot to add "past the first game sale" to the end there

The best example is to put it into numbers.

Gamestop has 10 copies of a new game in stock. On day one they all 10 copies. 5 of those 10 people don't like the game and they return it within a week.

Gamestop receives 5 new copies of that game and now has 5 used copies. Which one does gamestop want to sell? The used obviously, because it's almost 100% profit for them. Why would they sell a full priced game they don't make profit from?

1.) Game Dev: Sells 1 copy to gamestop, makes $60 profit from that game. (obviously its not $60 but I'm trying to keep it simple)
2.) Gamestop: Sells that copy to a costumer. No profit gamestop.
3.) Customer Sells game back to gamestop for ~30% of the initial cost (or less) gamestop loses ~20$
4.) Gamestop resells that same game for $55 = $35 profit
5.) Customer sells that back to gamestop. Now gamestop buys it for $15, resells it for $55.

How many times can a game dev sell a single copy of a game. Once
How many times can gamestop sell that exact same copy of the game. Unlimited (assuming each customer eventually sells it back to them.)

Who profits more? Gamestop.

When I worked at Gamestop I've sold new releases that have been out for less then 2 days USED to people because they want to save themselves $5. That helps the game dev how exactly?

ThatOneMan June 14 2013 10:07 PM EDT

Interesting and good points.

How do you feel about rentals being killed?
Poor college students paying for school and working crappy part time jobs can't afford new games all the time. So now they can't rent or even have a friend lend it to them.

I rented a ton of games back in the day.

I like to try something before spending 60 bucks that I really shouldn't lol.

Its hard just to jump on a game and pay because commercials and advertising makes it look good. I loved Diablo 2 so one figures D3 would be epic....well it was epic all right. A epic fail!!!!!

So I like to rent games.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 15 2013 12:52 AM EDT

Rentals kind of fall into the same category in my opinion, but as someone who used to rent games as a kid its hard to argue against it. Though back then it was usually from somewhere like Blockbuster so there was a limit to the length of time I could actually play the game, and if I liked it I usually bought it because I could never finish them. But with things like gamefly you could essentially play the entire game due to being able to keep it for any length of time. It's a very grey-ish area for me, because I'm completely for trying before you buy.

Personally I think game demos (good ones at that) should be pushed a lot harder so people know what to expect before hand and don't even need to pay to do it. Makes people even more likely to buy the game IMO, especially when the demo is good and an accurate representation of the game. I think that's the best direction to head honestly.

ThatOneMan June 15 2013 1:02 AM EDT

Ya I always rented from blockbuster lol

Maybe it isn't gonna be as bad as everyone is thinking.

The things with demos though is they Don't usually have demos for all the games and usually the demo isn't much (at least That's how I remember them) but if they change that then I can see this working.

However, I'm a poor college kid working a part time job. That $499 launch price is kinda steep for me. Plus then you gotta add in a game for 60 and Xbox Live for another 60. Plus get killed in taxes lol.

Ps4 is $100 cheaper lol

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 15 2013 1:34 AM EDT

I agree, I think game demos should be improved and give roughly an hour or more of true gameplay, not something polished up just for the demo. Better yet, if consoles moved to full digital distribution, then a trial option would be perfect. My take on it would be you would have the full version of the game unlocked for X amount of time, and allow you to play the actual game until the timer is up.. if you decide you like the game then you can purchase it and pick up right from where you left off. That's my ideal way to handle the situation on consoles.

Personally, I've turned to youtube and first impressions/lets plays to see if I'd be interested in a game these days. Sure it's not you playing the game, but they tend to give you the best idea of what to expect.

In terms of this generation of consoles, PS4 wins hands down. Microsoft is pushing too hard and their restrictions are.. well way too strict.

Things I really really dont like: Need to connect once every 24 hours, can't disconnect the kinect device, can't loan a game to your friend without them being on your list for 30 days.

The more I look into it though, microsoft is really pushing to make the xbox one more like a PC in the sense that you are installing the game to your account and its physical HDD more then anything. To me it actually makes sense, I just think it's too harsh.

This inevitably will become the future of gaming, physical media will die out its only a matter of time. What will be telling is how each company handles it and right now Microsoft is taking the first step, but in my opinion they've gone too far with its severe restrictions. I think they are about a generation too soon, which will really hurt.

Sony on the other hand learned from their mistakes with PS3s launch, took note of what microsoft is doing with xbox one (no doubt they were leaked information), then decided to take the opposite approach to regain their market share. Brilliant move honestly.

Dudster4 June 15 2013 6:58 AM EDT

I used to be cool with pirating games and most everything. But anymore I would rather drop the coin to support future development of games and music I support. Except Microsoft, I refuse to pay $150 every time I want a new operating system.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] June 15 2013 1:12 PM EDT

^ I used to be the same way, and I'm actually not at all bothered by people who do pirate a game to try it and then end up buying it because they enjoy it or simply want to support the devs. I'm one of the people who fell into that category, My now 80+ games on steam proves it lol because more then half of those I pirated at some point and eventually bought them when they went on sale at a price point I was more comfortable with.

ThatOneMan June 15 2013 1:59 PM EDT

I got one game on steam...DOTA 2 lol
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