Shade needs your help (or rather my character Il˙vatar does) (in General)

AdminShade April 4 2005 2:17 PM EDT

I seem to be in a spot that i find my character to not be good and I don't know what to change for it.
Also I had asked help from 4 people in chat and all seemed to have different ideas on how to manage the character.
So here is the thing: please try to help me with advice and tips.

some requirements though:

-The character will remain a 2 minion character, 1 of both being the Tank the other the Mage.
-I will keep Evasion on the mage as well as Dispel Magic.
-The Tank will remain using the named Exbow.

Todd April 4 2005 2:27 PM EDT

No AMF? Suicidal. As long as there are the big number of big mages arorund, you'll need AMF.

Also, what do you want to be, a tank, or a mage? I don't think you can effectively be both. Tanks with ToA (rising is popularity) will own you. Be a tank, or be a mage. Seems like you are trying to be both, and it just won't work, imo.

Besides, cb2 is a game where there is supposed to be no one best strategy (Ranger might be a temporary glitch due to his NW). So, there will always be a strat to beat you.

Maelstrom April 4 2005 2:29 PM EDT

A simple thing might be to put the tank in front. A CoBF might help, too.

QBJohnnywas April 4 2005 2:54 PM EDT

I agree with Todd, not having AMF is pretty bad considering the amount of mages out there. I'd also consider swapping fireball for cone of cold and moving the mage to the back.

Get hold of a CoBF and an adam for the tank and coupled with that mage shield your tank will be quite resistant to direct damage - add AMF and you'll be practically invulnerable to fireball.

I'd consider a 3rd minion though - you're diluting your XP a lot with the spells you have. An enchanter will ensure that your mage is as powerful as he can be.

AdminShade April 4 2005 4:15 PM EDT

Todd: i'm not asking to become the best strategy, merely trying to improve it :)

Johnnywas: as far as diluting, 3 minions dilute exp even more than 2 do (exp shared between 3 minions) so i'm not buying that easily.

but perhaps to change my character to Enchanter Tank then?

AdminShade April 4 2005 4:16 PM EDT

Maelstrom: putting the tank in front didn't actually help at all

also a CoBF is one of the items that i am waiting to get my hands on but they are expensive :)

BooDiggens April 4 2005 4:47 PM EDT

What are your thoughts on haste instead of fireball on the mage? I realize, with the fact that you'll keep DM and evasion , that your haste will be weak to enemy DM's. Yet with the popularity of AMF to DM, the haste may be a welcome addition. It'll help your tank to get more hits in ranged, and may even help your enchanter's evasion.

AdminShade April 4 2005 5:07 PM EDT

hmmm, don't know perhaps perhaps not... so many choices

Nightmare [NewNightmares] April 4 2005 5:10 PM EDT

Personally, I hope you keep it as is... I kinda like having you in my favorites :-D

If you want to stay with a mage and a tank, you'll need to decide what you are going to do with your tattoo. If you want to stick the the ToE on the mage, then you need to stick him in the back, and pump his HP up considerably.. to around 60-80k. You may always want to consider switching it to a ToA tank, which will let you raise the tank's HP up (HP is a definite overall problem with Il├║vatar) and do better against other tanks. Again, you'd want to move the mage to the back to protect him better. This is all IMHO though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 4 2005 5:13 PM EDT

Just come back from gym, so knackered...

Drop FB+DM. The combination of AMF, CBF and MgS eats it alive. Change the Mage to AMF and either MM/CoC.

You've left the tank without skill pre planning for the CBF right? Add either a base protection to the tank and VA to the Mage, or Protection on the mage and get a VA granting melee weapon.

Stick the Tank at the front for now, move him to the back later on. The combination of AMF + MgS will work wonders on lower level DD spells, dealing with MM, and the combination of that + a ToE on the mage will help with FB/CoC. Move the mage back to the front when the MgS starts to have little effect on the DD spells you face.

BooDiggens April 4 2005 5:18 PM EDT

I will keep Evasion on the mage as well as Dispel Magic.

Gentleman Loser, that is an awesome idea. Yet it looks as though Shade won't be dropping DM.

QBRanger April 4 2005 5:20 PM EDT

Well, with tattoos you have to make a choice and it seems like you have.

You could either do one of 3 things with the strict limitations you put on us:
-The character will remain a 2 minion character, 1 of both being the Tank the other the Mage. (I will just use the 2 minion part-see below)
-I will keep Evasion on the mage as well as Dispel Magic.
-The Tank will remain using the named Exbow.

first choice is what you have:
1) a toe mage with a tank in back
2) a toa tank with mage in back
3) a mage and tank behind a toj

The discussion of DM vs AMF is a long one but those that choose the DM path will be at a large disadvantage about 300k+ PR. I have tried going at it without an AMF (by equipping a MgS on my AMF minion) but vs TOE mages such as The Germs I cannot even do 1/2 his hp in damage before I get killed. Its not even close for me. Also, using DM sets you up to get crushed by a simple low level base decay. And your TOE will not help you there.

Now a TOE mage is very tough but the tank behind you will be weak. In the future the high level people will be using TOA tanks or TOE tanks and your tank will not be close. Also in the upper PR's nearly everyone has a high level AMF so your mage will be less useful. Your tank will get killed by multiple hits from high dex TOA tanks. Same but less for your mage. Also, you tank will hit TOA tanks only once a round. Your slightly better since your mage will act as a Wall type character for your tank. If you use this path you can later equip a CBF on your tank helping him out later.

A TOA tank with a mage as support is one option for you. You can convert your TOE to a TOA, put your tank in front and mage behind. You can then put all your xp into HP, add BL and then add a VA if you want. You can also make the mage an enchanter to further buff up your tank such as having a AMF/AS or AMF/Haste enchanter. The negative of this strat is that your toast (literally) vs high level CBF's.

Option 3 is weaker for you since youll have to buy a brand new TOJ. Then your tanks and mage will be weaker. This may be good now, but even now at 350k PR, a few TOA tanks can do over 15k damage per round to 250k+ level TOJ's, so they will not be as good a Wall as I thought they might be early on.

But I have to believe that continueing along the DM path is the way to quick death for your character once you get to a certain PR level. If you look at the top 20 or so characters, I can only think of 2 that dont use AMF-Gyaxx and The First. And if you look at The First's battles most are vs Tanks with average sized AMF's. Gyaxx uses seekers and a TOA and has a NW even above mine. His strat is to use the seekers to take out enemy mages before they can even cast many spells at him. However, vs a TOE mage, its very tough to kill him/her quickly before you die from his CoC or FB.

Too much ranting and flight of ideas, sry if its incoherent.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 4 2005 5:40 PM EDT

;) A ToA tank will get eaten by CBF s if you equip a melee weapon.

A ToE is more useful on a Mage.

If shade is planning on getting a CBF, it makes sense to stick it on the Tank, which can then be used with a MgS. If left on a mage, the MgS is useless.

If the Mage (the only minion viable for a tattoo) is going to change to an enchanter, use a ToJ instead.

>_< Didn't catch Shade wasn't going to get rid of DM... I'm tired...

In that case, CBF+MgS on one minion, ToE on the other. Kill decay mages before you reach melee. ;)

Starseed^Lure April 4 2005 5:53 PM EDT

yeah, but don't help him too much; Il├║vatar is one of my favs to beat on. ;p

AdminShade April 4 2005 6:11 PM EDT

Nightmare: HP is already 1/3rd of the exp that i spend on my minions

GentlemanLoser: more and more people advise me to make an Enchanter rather than a mage and it was my first thought when i started the character, perhaps not a bad idea after all...
and indeed im pre planning for CoBF.

BooDiggity: well meh if i can't keep up i will bend

Ranger: tattoo on tank = no go, see the Mage Shield which doesn't allow to be worn with a tattoo.

also i had turned my ToJ into the ToE making me unable to switch back but it didn't make my minions less powerful, instead i now lose to people i used to win against :\

perhaps the Enchanter Tank strategy becomes more and more plausible making the enchanter have evasion AMF and HP to survive and be a meatshield also.


QBJohnnywas April 5 2005 5:51 AM EDT


Iluvatar was in my favourites list for my char Raven. I could beat him easily - just to let you know I can't beat you now!!
The big difference is the extra hp on the enchanter and most importantly the AMF. A good choice of change I think =)

AdminShade April 5 2005 6:01 AM EDT

erm? you still can beat me :\

QBJohnnywas April 5 2005 6:02 AM EDT

Not just now - I lost after 13 rounds! Your AMF killed my mage stone dead!

QBJohnnywas April 5 2005 6:07 AM EDT

Ok, I can still beat ya =)

But it's a lot harder than it was before and you do beat me sometimes, which didn't happen before. The biggest thing in my favour is CoC, which, even when hit by a large AMF, still does a lot of damage. As I said before, I think it's a good change =)

AdminShade April 5 2005 8:21 AM EDT

Ungoliant cast Antimagic Field on Tonya, Raven Queen (0.97)
Ungoliant cast Antimagic Field on Jack Crow (0.40)

indeed this makes quite a difference, .97 means i only get 3% of the original damage and you take the rest back.

Lumpy Koala April 5 2005 8:49 AM EDT

Not to discourage you or anything... but I think you should consider Tattoo on Tank :) Just ditch the mage shield , it's not as good as you think it is...

Btw My PR is around 1/3 of yours ....

Hyuuga Neji defeated Il├║vatar (Sentinels of Valinor) after 8 rounds of combat

AdminShade April 5 2005 10:12 AM EDT

NK, and your NW is around triple of mine.

correction its 1.5 times as big.

AdminShade April 5 2005 10:21 AM EDT

anyway trying without the shield and with the tattoo on the tank, didnt see much difference yet and only negative even :S

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 5 2005 12:14 PM EDT

I've been considering trying a toe on my tank, I would take BL if I did so tho, then you just want a hp draining weapon :)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 5 2005 12:18 PM EDT

Perhaps switch your hp on enchanter to AS, what do you think?

Lumpy Koala April 5 2005 12:58 PM EDT

hehe Just around 4mil difference :P 3x PR should cover the diff for similar strat...

anyway, I think you will be doing fine now . Just unlearn the HP on the enchanter , either whack them all in AMF or add AS that would buff your Tank more.

Don't listen to rumours about ToA tanks, actually they suck :P We can't possibly be tanks actually... coz ToA tanks just can't get any AC higher than a mage without body armour + cloak. So.. very very fatal against mages which are abundant in current context. I am still using ToA because I would be turning EET next year .... well if CB still around by then or I've reach around 700k MPR or so

I've played highest ToA as well as highest ToE before all the tattoo changes. So I would say endurance is the way of life :P If you are going for any setup lesser than 3 minions :P

AdminShade April 6 2005 4:44 AM EDT

indeed ToA tanks lack the AC.

i have now tried to use the ToE on my tank but it actually did nothing for me, i'd rather have a classical tank with high AC than a ToE tank without AC (atm)

also i have been thinking about making a good AS on my enchanter to buff up my tanks HP more, i think i will do that pretty soon to give my tank more reason to wreak havoc and hope that it will make me able to fight more people again :)

any other help is most welcome

AdminShade April 6 2005 4:50 AM EDT

just converted HP into AS.

with ToE on enchanter: makes me lose against more people
with ToE on tank: makes me not lose against those people

hmmm, trying to add some new targets ^_^

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 6 2005 5:19 AM EDT

I am watching how it goes with interest, I like the strat, although I would be going without evasion, with an assassin xbow and probably BL. I beat you because you cannot hit my dx boosted toj and I guess the same will apply to single tanks and some toa tanks in multi minion teams. In any case I guess you can afford to boost DX above HP now thanks to the AS and ToE. I'm hitting for only 3-4k per hit in melee with ST at about 52k after taking 1 EX bow hit in ranged (morg is x45) so that ToE really does blunt my offense.

AdminShade April 6 2005 8:59 AM EDT

and if i manage to save up some money the Exbow will do more damage to you making you hit for even less damage ;)
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